4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

@Xhilizhra:  That wasn't the question... the poster said that they knew what the Fade was.  I find that claim highly unlikely as I don't believe Bioware knows for sure what they want the Fade to be.  

 

So... they took a Phil. 101 course - played some Warhammer (it's a shameless plagiarization of the Warp) - and came up with some weird combo.

Not even remotely. Demons are just unpleasant spirits, and the Fade isn't inherently inimical to life. About the only commonality they have is that mages can be possessed, which is more a property of demons, something that they very frequently do across all sorts of media.

[Sah291]

But we do physically step out of the rift at Adamant, going from the Fade and back into the mortal realm. We were there, and then we weren't. Similarly, we see ourselves run through the rift in the Fade memory sequence with the Divine, and also see our followers run through before Nightmare blocks the path. Cassandra (I believe) also describes it in such a way at the start of the game when she relates the events of finding the PC.
 
This is different from, say, the Fade experience in DAO where we clearly fall unconscious and then stand back up when it's over. The same happened again with the Fade in DAA; when it's over, we are shown to have been unconscious and then rise again afterward.
 
And what does the Inquisitor say, exactly?

Well I was just refreshing my memory by reading the wiki on the fade, and the lore of all the cultures presented so far, even the Qunari, seem pretty consistent that the fade is some sort of metaphysical realm.

What I mean is, they could have simply been perceiving the fade while fully conscious, with their physical senses as well, as opposed to just with their metaphysical or psychic senses while asleep or in trance, the way fade travel is normally done.

This is supposed to be really difficult and dangerous, and was said to be done by opening rifts. But the ancient Evanuris apparently knew of this practice, and since they had a conscious connection to the fade, they might have been fairly skilled at it. The Crossroads was an example of a quasi fade/physical realm.

Maybe it would help to compare to real world metaphysics/philosophy. I'll try to explain where I think they might be going with it. I'm not saying they are definitely basing the fade on this general idea, but it seems likely.

Anyway. The way that experiencing the astral realm is said to work, is that you have more than one "body" - a physical body (including your 5 physical senses, sight, touch, smell, etc), and an astral and light body (which are spiritual and mental, and that you perceive or "see" with the energentic senses associated with those bodies in the associated metaphysical plane). The three "bodies" are attached and interconnected to one another.

Astral travel/projection then, is said to be the practice of separating the astral body from the physical body. The physical and astral body are said to be connected by a kind of thread or umbilical cord like structure, the so called "silver cord". As long as that cord is still attached your body remains alive and you can return to it. But once the cord is cut, you have fully crossed and can no longer go back. This is what some speculate happens when death occurs, and is what people have described seeing in near death out of body experiences. So you can see from this how something like Tranquility might work by "killing" someone in the fade. They are severing or binding the astral body, perhaps. And entering the fade physically could be perceiving the fade with the physical senses consciously.

Or not. I'm pretty sure I'm way over thinking it.

Oh yeah, the Inquisitor told Iron Bull that the Veil is not a physical barrier but more like a vibration or frequency that is holding the fade back.

[Almostfaceman]

Well I was just refreshing my memory by reading the wiki on the fade, and the lore of all the cultures presented so far, even the Qunari, seem pretty consistent that the fade is some sort of metaphysical realm.

What I mean is, they could have simply been perceiving the fade while fully conscious, with their physical senses as well, as opposed to just with their metaphysical or psychic senses while asleep or in trance, the way fade travel is normally done.

This is supposed to be really difficult and dangerous, and was said to be done by opening rifts. But the ancient Evanuris apparently knew of this practice, and since they had a conscious connection to the fade, they might have been fairly skilled at it. The Crossroads was an example of a quasi fade/physical realm.

Maybe it would help to compare to real world metaphysics/philosophy. I'll try to explain where I think they might be going with it. I'm not saying they are definitely basing the fade on this general idea, but it seems likely.

Anyway. The way that experiencing the astral realm is said to work, is that you have more than one "body" - a physical body (including your 5 physical senses, sight, touch, smell, etc), and an astral and light body (which are spiritual and mental, and that you perceive or "see" with the energentic senses associated with those bodies in the associated metaphysical plane). The three "bodies" are attached and interconnected to one another.

Astral travel/projection then, is said to be the practice of separating the astral body from the physical body. The physical and astral body are said to be connected by a kind of thread or umbilical cord like structure, the so called "silver cord". As long as that cord is still attached your body remains alive and you can return to it. But once the cord is cut, you have fully crossed and can no longer go back. This is what some speculate happens when death occurs, and is what people have described seeing in near death out of body experiences. So you can see from this how something like Tranquility might work by "killing" someone in the fade. They are severing or binding the astral body, perhaps. And entering the fade physically could be perceiving the fade with the physical senses consciously.

Or not. I'm pretty sure I'm way over thinking it.

Oh yeah, the Inquisitor told Iron Bull that the Veil is not a physical barrier but more like a vibration or frequency that is holding the fade back.

 

I think you missed the point they made that Quizzy and company were actually not physically present on the world. They went to another world. Their body wasn't laying on the ground while their consciousness inhabited the Fade. It's not just a matter of the Quizzy's perspective, it's a matter of actual location. What you describe is how most folks experience the Fade. They only visit it through dreams

[Sah291]

I think you missed the point they made that Quizzy and company were actually not physically present on the world. They went to another world. Their body wasn't laying on the ground while their consciousness inhabited the Fade. It's not just a matter of the Quizzy's perspective, it's a matter of actual location. What you describe is how most folks experience the Fade. They only visit it through dreams

In other words, they teleporated or entered a different dimension somehow, through the rift.

I'm just speculating on the possible difference between a conscious connection to the fade and an unconscious one. You wouldn't be leaving the physical body behind alseep, but actually experiencing with it and walking around in it, awake.

Entering the fade physically is said in the wiki to involve opening rifts. Which the Inquisitor with the Anchor could do. I have no idea how that works...but having a conscious connection to the fade first is probably part of it, since they aren't leaving their bodies.

Suppose what happens to Quizzy was this: they had a near death experience in the Conclave explosion, but instead of getting cut from the physical body, they entered the fade physically (because of the Anchor), and was able to come out whole again.

[German Soldier]

I always understood it that way.  I think of it as the difference between gauze and canvas or burlap - both will let water through but the burlap will retain a great deal more than gauze.  Solas didn't create the Veil - his enchantment merely... thickened the thin membrane that existed between the physical world and the world of spirits.

I share the same view.

No matter how powerful he is i don't see him powerful enough to be able to create alone by himself from scratch the veil and even sustain it for millenia.I think he did something to enhance the preexistent boundary that was already present during Arlathan age .

[Aren]

I understand it to have been one world. There was no world of the physical and no world of spirits. This world may have had one dimension more to move about in, namely "away from and towards the physical", but it was one, until the Veil prevented that movement like an infinite-length roadblock.

The codex implied that the brethren of the air(spirits) existed and were not easy to convince to come in the physical world.

Elves used to train themselves to reach these powerful spirits in the deepest corner of the fade and i think is implied that Solas was one of those spirits that was called in the world by Mythal against his will.

[nightscrawl]

I think you missed the point they made that Quizzy and company were actually not physically present on the world. They went to another world. Their body wasn't laying on the ground while their consciousness inhabited the Fade. It's not just a matter of the Quizzy's perspective, it's a matter of actual location. What you describe is how most folks experience the Fade. They only visit it through dreams

 
Yes. Also, we have the perceptions of other people. Cassandra says that the Herald was witnessed by others walking out of the Fade. And then of course we actually see it happen at Adamant in the final cinematic.
 
I can get behind the idea of the metaphysical Fade, or astral projection, if it weren't for these things in the game itself that suggest it's was a physical realm.
 
Also, Solas, in describing what could be in that one investigate dialogue, starts off with, "What if the Fade wasn't a place where one went, but..." which to me implies that the Fade is indeed a place where one goes. This would be the same as if he said, "What if McDonald's didn't serve cheeseburgers, but... [served tacos instead?]" Which would imply that McDonald's does currently serve cheeseburgers. This is currently, mind, not during Solas's previous time.

 

Oh yeah, the Inquisitor told Iron Bull that the Veil is not a physical barrier but more like a vibration or frequency that is holding the fade back.

Even if that's what the Veil is, that doesn't mean that the Fade, as it currently is with the Veil in place, is not another physical realm.

 

 

In other words, they teleporated or entered a different dimension somehow, through the rift.

I'm just speculating on the possible difference between a conscious connection to the fade and an unconscious one. You wouldn't be leaving the physical body behind alseep, but actually experiencing with it and walking around in it, awake.

Entering the fade physically is said in the wiki to involve opening rifts. Which the Inquisitor with the Anchor could do. I have no idea how that works...but having a conscious connection to the fade first is probably part of it, since they aren't leaving their bodies.

 

Well to be fair, it doesn't seem like the Inquisitor knows how it works, either. I think the presentation of the Anchor use is odd. People can headcanon whatever proficiency and understanding that they like for their Inquisitor, and that is fine for them, but I do prefer going by the game's presentation for my own self.

 

The Inquisitor is initially shown to be totally clueless about the Anchor and its usage, and we see that Solas takes them by the hand on the first meeting. When meeting Dorian, even he sees that the Inquisitor really has no clue how it all works.

 

Then the game mechanics get in the way of storytelling. After the encounter with Corypheus, the Inquisitor is thrown into a cave where they come upon some demons; we get a small tutorial that explains our new ability and we can use it from then onward. But what is supposed to be the story reason for that? Was it instinct? Intuition? How did the Inquisitor suddenly know how to do this?

 

I've always found the Adamant scenes to be similarly odd. When the party is falling into the canyon, the Inquisitor extends their arm and opens a rift as they are falling. Was this instinct that only came through in this emergency situation? Later on, after coming back through the rift, the Inquisitor closes it with a simple closing of the fist, seemingly with more new knowledge of how to control and use the Anchor. The expression on their face seems to support this. Is that really the case? Nothing is ever mentioned about it, which is pretty disappointing. Being able to open and close rifts at will should be a huge deal.

[Macha'Anu]

 

I share the same view.

No matter how powerful he is i don't see him powerful enough to be able to create alone by himself from scratch the veil and even sustain it for millenia.I think he did something to enhance the preexistent boundary that was already present during Arlathan age .

 

I do wonder who it was that helped him. It does seem to take a lot of magic to create something such as that. I mean he is quite powerful to where he can just blink and you're stone but still. There's more to it and I don't want to speculate too much so as not to be disappointed. Will be interesting to see it unfold 

[Nimlowyn]

I do wonder who it was that helped him. It does seem to take a lot of magic to create something such as that. I mean he is quite powerful to where he can just blink and you're stone but still. There's more to it and I don't want to speculate too much so as not to be disappointed. Will be interesting to see it unfold

Sometimes I wonder if Flemeth was involved. I can't tell if she and Solas are dear friends at odds, or working together.

[Sah291]

@nightscrawl,

I think at that point we can start splitting hairs over what "physical" means. I think we can assume here the fade isn't presented as being supernatural and is part of the physical word. But is beyond the normal perception of the base physical senses. So it coexists as another plane or dimension of reality.

According to the Chantry, the fade is made up of primordial matter or ether. In folkore, the classical element of ether is often associated with the sky, as symbolic of the void, or celestial energy that everything eminates from (which would be the Maker according to the Chantry). In the game we see the same symbolism, with holding back the fade being referred to as holding up the sky. The breach itself presents as a massive hole in the sky.

Going back to the Veil being a vibration. The lower physical realm could be a place that is slower, heavier, and has more mass. With the upper fade planes being higher and lighter realms that vibrate at higher or faster frequencies. This is in line with how Cole describes Thedas.

As far as the Anchor and the Quizzy knowing how to use it. I think it's implied it was some sort of fluke and that this is not how they would normally do it. It's possible touching the Anchor awakened something subconsciously. The Anchor is described as being a key multiple times. I guess you can use a key without knowing where it leads.

[Macha'Anu]

Sometimes I wonder if Flemeth was involved. I can't tell if she and Solas are dear friends at odds, or working together.

My friend had a theory they may have been either A lovers or B family. They also theorize that Solas was supposed to take mythal being or her magic if you will but as he seen her placing something in the Eluvian he thinks she may have tricked the trickster. He thinks she's eventually going to be a big baddie as she was passionate about doing whatever it took to get revenge and she can't get revenge if those she's targeting are locked in the nether. He pretty much laughs at some of the Solas arguments as he thinks solas is the least of our problems and I and he honestly think that's Solas is going to be the one to help us fight the actual baddie. But he always says it's only my own opinion I have no real proof of it. I guess there's just so many theories out there

[Navee]

My friend had a theory they may have been either A lovers or B family. They also theorize that Solas was supposed to take mythal being or her magic if you will but as he seen her placing something in the Eluvian he thinks she may have tricked the trickster. He thinks she's eventually going to be a big baddie as she was passionate about doing whatever it took to get revenge and she can't get revenge if those she's targeting are locked in the nether. He pretty much laughs at some of the Solas arguments as he thinks so this is the least of our problems and I honestly think that's Solas is going to be the one to help us fight the actual baddie. But he always says it's only my own opinion I have no real proof of it. I guess there's just so many theories out there

 

I hope your friend is right! I would love to see that. I would also love to have the help of Solas

[midnight tea]

But we do physically step out of the rift at Adamant, going from the Fade and back into the mortal realm. We were there, and then we weren't. Similarly, we see ourselves run through the rift in the Fade memory sequence with the Divine, and also see our followers run through before Nightmare blocks the path. Cassandra (I believe) also describes it in such a way at the start of the game when she relates the events of finding the PC.

 

This is different from, say, the Fade experience in DAO where we clearly fall unconscious and then stand back up when it's over. The same happened again with the Fade in DAA; when it's over, we are shown to have been unconscious and then rise again afterward.

 

And what does the Inquisitor say, exactly?

 

Considering how much in Thedas revolves around perception, I'd say that seeing something or someone go in and out doesn't necessarily means that the plane is separate from Thedas's 'physical' one. The "physicality" of the Veil as well as many other things appears to be simply existing in people's head. Yet since what's in humans head in Thedas *can* become real, the notion that both realms are separate is reinforced to a point that they *are* separate... er, if that makes sense  They think it's separate so it is effectively separate.

 

I mean, when we talk with Solas in the Fade he can tell us that Inquisitor *could* technically interact with him in the Fade while Solas is asleep and Inky is fully awake. In one of initial conversations he also states that the Fade mirrors the places it's in and that ultimately he had to travel to find new places in the Fade (and that's aside from obvious gaining of experience to open spaces in teh Fade previously unavailable for him). So obviously the Fade must still be in some way deeply connected with the world and linger in it, even if it's Veiled, if geographical positions influence what is being mirrored on 'the other side' - even if the mirror ultimately has numerous layers or perhaps even separate planes. Even Cole tells us that the Fade is still all around us, only 'Veiled" - structured in some way that makes it interact with the world the way it does, and both he and Solas make comments about spirits or energies of the Fade crowd and dance around people, especially mages.

 

In other words... how can the Fade ever be separate from the world, when it's intrinsically connected to it even in the Veiled one?

 

But yeah, uh... I'm afraid I lack words or proper analogies, because this is ultimately very challenging for *our* perception to imagine the world as consisting of many various, sometimes imperceptible layers, despite our varied beliefs on it. We can even hardly imagine how world on quantum level works or imagine theories like string theory, so... uh indeed. No wonder we're confused with the Fade, or that Thedosians are mostly confused.

 

Anyway, for me, personally, possibly two things happens (er, or both?) - that because the Veil is a barrier that *repels* the Fade and most people push it away from themselves as something to be feared of, the sheer accumulation of it somewhere on the outskirts of their consciousness and uninhabited planes of the existence has created a separate dimension - sort of Fade's distorted, largely disconnected mirror of Thedas in circumstances where magic is pushed away from it. It basically may be a "makeshift" Crossroads - the Codex on the Fade even mentions how spirits build it by trying to copy what they see in real world. It would even explain its chaotic, ever-changing structure that still mirrors the world around it.

 

The second thing I think could be happening is that we should think of Thedas as containing layers or planes that are deeply interconnected with one another, but those who can't perceive them necessarily won't see them or be able to interact with them. That would mean that someone who crossed those planes would ultimately seem as they went somewhere else.

[Seraphim24]

So wait now we're now compiling evidence that Solas is just a misunderstood tragic figure, his actions are a complicated intermix of misshapen circumstances and misinterpretation? Consequently his actions are in media res, a possible restoration in the future can restore the world to balance, or, something.

 

Well I daresay the base game doesn't make that clear, but fine, whatever, so be it, baldy just needs to find his knightress in shining armor or whatever and then the world doesn't go mega-boom.

 

Even if you try and subtract evil out of the equation though, he's still just... I don't know.... boring.

 

I think he just needs to realize his dry professor bit is just for kicks and the moral and ethical complications of acting on his sublime hatred of the universe are quite severe.

 

Anyway I didn't edit my point about his internal desires, if acted on across everywhere, are essentially worse than the Holocaust, at least I don't remember doing so... might of been a mod.

[midnight tea]

So wait now we're now compiling evidence that Solas is just a misunderstood tragic figure, his actions are a complicated intermix of misshapen circumstances and misinterpretation?

 

Well I daresay the base game doesn't make that clear, but fine, whatever, so be it, baldy just needs to find his knightress in shining armor or whatever and then the world doesn't go mega-boom.

 

Even if you try and subtract evil out of the equation though, he's still just... I don't know.... boring.

 

I'm pretty sure you can find farmhands who are more exciting to be around.

 

I think he just needs to realize his dry professor bit is just for kicks and the moral and ethical complications of acting on his sublime hatred of the universe are quite severe.

 

Anyway I didn't edit my point about his internal desires, if acted on across everywhere, are essentially worse than the Holocaust, at least I don't remember doing so... might of been a mod.

 

"Now" compiling evidence? Huh, people have been quoting or compiling evidence long before this thread has existed...

 

Also - how is even a potential simple "knightress in shining armor" scenario in any way as boring that defeating yet another "super-evil, moustache-twirling villain" you claim Solas is? ...Now THAT'S boring.

[Seraphim24]

"Now" compiling evidence? Huh, people have been quoting or compiling evidence long before this thread has existed...

 

Also - how is even a potential simple "knightress in shining armor" scenario in any way as boring that defeating yet another "super-evil, moustache-twirling villain" you claim Solas is? ...Now THAT'S boring.

 

Solas isn't a super-evil, moustache-twirling villain, he's literally like..... a serial killer, personality wise, anyway.

 

He's I don't know, this guy

 

Spoiler tagged because NSFW and all that...

 

Spoiler

 

A moustache-twirling villain would be infinitely more complex, frankly.

 

Anyway, the point is, I'm saying, if you want a "redemption arc" for your pure sociopath well sure you can have one, I guess, whatever, it's fine. I'm entirely sure it's possible for serial-killing personalities to be misunderstood and truly complex and able to successfully see the light with an appropriate mate or whatever, then ideally they don't go off and kill everyone in the entire world because of some crazed notion of "lesser races" or whatever.

 

But like, at a minimum, that's completely contrary to Bioware's original kinds of stories so you know, you can't be surprised if some people are turned off by that.

 

Well that's not totally true actually Melissan was basically a female version of that, but well, their Interplay days.

[Almostfaceman]

Solas isn't a super-evil, moustache-twirling villain, he's literally like..... a serial killer, personality wise, anyway.

 

He's I don't know, this guy

 

Spoiler tagged because NSFW and all that...

 

Spoiler

 

A moustache-twirling villain would be infinitely more complex, frankly.

 

Anyway, the point is, I'm saying, if you want a "redemption arc" for your pure sociopath well sure you can have one, I guess, whatever, it's fine. I'm entirely sure it's possible for serial-killing personalities to be misunderstood and truly complex and able to successfully see the light with an appropriate mate or whatever, then ideally they don't go off and kill everyone in the entire world because of some crazed notion of "lesser races" or whatever.

 

But like, at a minimum, that's completely contrary to Bioware's original kinds of stories so you know, you can't be surprised if some people are turned off by that.

 

Serial killers... I think you're going for sociopaths or psycopaths... lack empathy. Try again. 

[Seraphim24]

Serial killers... I think you're going for sociopaths or psycopaths... lack empathy. Try again. 

 

Ah! I see, so I was looking for sociopath or psychopath, not serial killer... serial killers being a possible subset but certainly not exclusively to people lacking in empathy.

 

Right, Solas is a sociopath.

 

But simply because he lacks any shred of empathy does not preclude him from functioning or otherwise finding "Solace," but he has to dump the "Solas" (pride) to get there.

 

Anyway, my point is, one way or another, this type of person is a burden on socieity, an extreme burden and it's their responsibility to find ways to function that most certainly don't involve acting on their crazy tendencies, but ideally have almost no impact at all, because as I say, they are 98% dead weight and make life more difficult for everyone else.

[Almostfaceman]

Ah! I see, so I was looking for sociopath or psychopath, not serial killer... serial killers being a possible subset but certainly not exclusively to people lacking in empathy.

 

Right, Solas is a sociopath.

 

But simply because he lacks any shred of empathy does not preclude him from functioning or otherwise finding "Solace," but he has to dump the "Solas" (pride) to get there.

 

No, you were wrong with both serial killer and sociopath. Solas displays empathy throughout the game and the Trespasser DLC. Try again. 

[Seraphim24]

No, you were wrong with both serial killer and sociopath. Solas displays empathy throughout the game and the Trespasser DLC. Try again. 

 

Wrong. His "empathy" is primarily feigned, just a mirage, his native emotional intelligence rates at nearly the bottom of all humans possibly even below some other species such as Dolphins. Try again.

 

If you want to just say it "exists" well sure, I'm sure it exists... in some measure... some tiny... tiny... measure.

[Almostfaceman]

Wrong. His "empathy" is primarily feigned, just a mirage, his native emotional intelligence rates at nearly the bottom of all humans possibly even below some other species such as Dolphins. Try again.

 

If you want to just say it "exists" well sure, I'm sure it exists... in the same way a cherry exists on top of an ice cream sundae.

 

If you want to claim his empathy is "feigned" you have to prove it. Get on with it, then. 

 

[Seraphim24]

If you want to claim his empathy is "feigned" you have to prove it. Get on with it, then. 

 

 

The part where he thinks racially genociding everyone is a good idea?\

 

Also I'm going to just report your gifs to the moderator even though you can't manage it maybe they'll disagree they make a naturally flowing conversation so much more difficult than it needs to be...

[Almostfaceman]

That's exactly it, you don't have to "prove." In your insistence on "tangible, intellectual, proof" is unneeded for "emotional intelligence."

 

So you have no evidence he's a sociopath? Got it. 

[Seraphim24]

So you have no evidence he's a sociopath? Got it. 

 

You really don't but honestly the fact that he wants to racially genocide everyone works just fine.

 

I'm pretty sure we were compiling that evidence a long time ago.

[Almostfaceman]

You really don't but honestly the fact that he wants to racially genocide everyone works just fine.

 

Oh, you don't have to be a sociopath to kill anyone. Or any number of people. But now you've proved you have no evidence he's a sociopath. Thanks.