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Why do some of you girls maybe guys like ( love ) Solas so much ?


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#4201
Gwydden

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So - until the elf explains more - I call bulls--t on his plans.

I call it the Tyrion Lannister Syndrome. Character is written to be likable and sympathetic, so when it is revealed that in fact said character is an ******* of epic proportions people who count them among their favorites engage in all kinds of literary contortionism to excuse their actions.

 

Frankly, I think most people do that for characters they like, but it is especially insidious when the writer is enabling them for one reason or the other.


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#4202
Fiskrens

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@Medhia_Nox: kudos for giving the best explained "Why do some of you hate Solas so much?" so far. I'm still on the we-don't-know-enough-yet path and don't agree to his pure evilness, but your post certainly got me thinking on the subject of his (eventual) fanatism.

#4203
Bayonet Hipshot

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@Machu Anu:  You can search the thread, if I said specifically that you or anyone by name supported genocide or loved Hitler or any such thing you can feel free to lay blame an I will sincerely apologize.  But, I think you will struggle finding me making claims like that. 

 

As for Solas.  The example you're giving is how he treats the romanced Inquisitor.  On a totally philosophical level Jesus says:  "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?  Are not even the tax collectors doing that?"  What he means is... even bad men (tax collectors were demonized in the Bible) love those who love them.  That's not a measure of goodness.  Even a killer or a thief loves who he loves.  It takes no amount of goodness for that and amounts to just selfishness in the end. 

 

I actually admire Solas for kicking his love interest to the curb.  Shows some small level of responsibility for his cruelty. 

 

I once had a born again Christian tell me that she loved me, but that I was going to hell for being gay.  She believed she loved me.  She was pained that I wasn't a real human to her.  She wanted to save me.  To make me better.  To "open my mind".  She believed this completely.  She wasn't lying to me in her eyes. 

 

She was bats--t delusional.  She convinced herself that her intolerance and ignorance were love so that she could do what she needed to do.  Condemn me.

 

Solas is - for me - the same being.  He wants modern Thedas to be saved (by his definition) - he wants to help them (by his definition) and he so "pained" that he can't.  So, he tells himself that he feels bad.. he tells himself that he cares and hopes someone, somewhere, can stop him (total lack of responsibility) but he's confident they can't.  So he has to make the "hard choice" and kill everyone because how could they stand living "practically Tranquil". 

 

No... Solas is the most insidious evil I have ever met in the real world and I will not tolerate him.

 

NOTE:  There is a chance that I would - at best - de-power him and let him wander the world a mortal elf with no magic until he dies if such a thing is possible.  Or, imprison him with his kin if he prefers that.  

You are spot on with this.

 

Being capable of love does not make one good or ethical or virtuous, it simply means they are capable of experiencing a neurobiological sensation that usually culminates in reproduction. 

 

The same goes for having the capacity to feel sorry for someone, it does not automatically makes someone good or ethical or virtuous, it simply means they are able to experience a specific emotion.

 

Personally, I would love to de-power Solas, let him face trial for aiding and abetting Corypheus and leave him be. However, Solas is at this point, too powerful and will continue to be powerful. I personally think we may have to pull a Mythal where we have to kill him to weaken him severely, the same way Mythal is now a shade of what she used to be ever since the Evanuris murdered her. Solas won't die but he will become a wisp of sorts.

 

Solas and the Blight. 

We have some indication that the Evanuris inadvertently created the Blight.  The records indicate they discovered something so terrible in the deep that they collapsed their tunnels and fled.  The Evanuris... these world shaping uber-beings.  

 

And still, this was Pre-Veil.  So it has nothing to do with bringing the Veil down.  

 

If the Blight is the "most important thing" then perhaps he should spend some time explaining to everyone why.  

 

The ancient elves aren't the answer... the ancient elves are probably why Thedas has the Blight.

 

So - until the elf explains more - I call bulls--t on his plans.

 

This is not only true of Solas but also Flemythal and Morrigan. These people make cryptic commentary on things and then just expect us to just go along with their plans without any form of skepticism., it reminds me of the SJW "Listen and believe !" rhetoric.

 

Morrigan did this in DAO when she proposed the Dark Ritual without ever explaining why she needs to preserve Urthemiel's soul. I mean throughout the game, we have been directed towards the goal of killing the Archdemon. Now she wants to preserve its soul for some cryptic unexplained reason that we, the player must listen, believe and accept without skepticism.

 

The same goes with Flemeth. In DAO, she decided to be pointlessly cryptic when it comes to her goal of possessing Morrigan when confronted about it. All she had to say was that possession can only be accomplished on those who are willing to be possessed.

 

Now in DAI, Solas chooses to be pointlessly cryptic about the Blight and put down the Grey Wardens even though its the Evanuris, whom he used to hang out with, that was most likely responsible for the Blight.

 

The Ancient Elves are why Thedas has the Blight in the first place, why Dwarves cannot connect to the Titans, why the Fade is separate from the mortal realm, how Tevinter got introduced to the notions of slavery and magister rule, etc. If you notice, tribes like the Avvar do not have slaves.

 

Ancient Elves are a mess. Sad !

 

I call it the Tyrion Lannister Syndrome. Character is written to be likable and sympathetic, so when it is revealed that in fact said character is an ******* of epic proportions people who count them among their favorites engage in all kinds of literary contortionism to excuse their actions.

 

Frankly, I think most people do that for characters they like, but it is especially insidious when the writer is enabling them for one reason or the other.

 

Its Patrick Weekes, this is his style of writing and unfortunately, he is now the lead writer of Dragon Age games.
 


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#4204
Lulupab

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I call it the Tyrion Lannister Syndrome. Character is written to be likable and sympathetic, so when it is revealed that in fact said character is an ******* of epic proportions people who count them among their favorites engage in all kinds of literary contortionism to excuse their actions.

 

Frankly, I think most people do that for characters they like, but it is especially insidious when the writer is enabling them for one reason or the other.

 

Don't act like David Gaider and other writers didn't do the same thing. Loghain and Anders were not that different from Solas, sure they are not some long lost Elven god but there is a alot of reasons to be sympathetic towards them. Back in the day when these games were new quite a bit of surveys revealed half the players kept these two alive.



#4205
Medhia_Nox

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@Medhia_Nox: kudos for giving the best explained "Why do some of you hate Solas so much?" so far. I'm still on the we-don't-know-enough-yet path and don't agree to his pure evilness, but your post certainly got me thinking on the subject of his (eventual) fanatism.

 

Let me be clear.  I actually don't think Solas is "pure" evil in the way that Sauron was "pure" evil.

 

I do recognize the qualities people enjoy about the character.  It's convenient and reductive for some passionate fans of Solas to believe that simply because others find him evil that we do not recognize some attractive attributes.  It's the same way that those who don't like him sometimes act as if those who do, love genocide and cruelty and lying. 

 

Another poster I was talking with recently admitted they'd never accept Solas' personality in real life - but that they found him a compelling character. 

 

There's two ways to talk about any video game character I feel.  As a roleplaying game - I act as if I were actually encountering this personality.  How would I feel?  Or how would my character feel? 

OR - on a literary level.  Which is more analytical and removed from any sort of roleplaying. 

 

Personally - I do not find Solas interesting on a literary level and as this is a roleplaying I have chosen to only discuss him as if he were committing these actions on "me" ("me" in game).  That's not the "right" way to discuss Solas - just the way I've chosen to discuss and understand him.

 

Thanks.  Not looking to sway anyone - just to offer my view on his personality.  Glad it had some worth.


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#4206
Macha'Anu

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@Machu Anu: You can search the thread, if I said specifically that you or anyone by name supported genocide or loved Hitler or any such thing you can feel free to lay blame an I will sincerely apologize. But, I think you will struggle finding me making claims like that.

As for Solas. The example you're giving is how he treats the romanced Inquisitor. On a totally philosophical level Jesus says: "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?" What he means is... even bad men (tax collectors were demonized in the Bible) love those who love them. That's not a measure of goodness. Even a killer or a thief loves who he loves. It takes no amount of goodness for that and amounts to just selfishness in the end.

I actually admire Solas for kicking his love interest to the curb. Shows some small level of responsibility for his cruelty.

I once had a born again Christian tell me that she loved me, but that I was going to hell for being gay. She believed she loved me. She was pained that I wasn't a real human to her. She wanted to save me. To make me better. To "open my mind". She believed this completely. She wasn't lying to me in her eyes.

She was bats--t delusional. She convinced herself that her intolerance and ignorance were love so that she could do what she needed to do. Condemn me.

Solas is - for me - the same being. He wants modern Thedas to be saved (by his definition) - he wants to help them (by his definition) and he so "pained" that he can't. So, he tells himself that he feels bad.. he tells himself that he cares and hopes someone, somewhere, can stop him (total lack of responsibility) but he's confident they can't. So he has to make the "hard choice" and kill everyone because how could they stand living "practically Tranquil".

No... Solas is the most insidious evil I have ever met in the real world and I will not tolerate him.

NOTE: There is a chance that I would - at best - de-power him and let him wander the world a mortal elf with no magic until he dies if such a thing is possible. Or, imprison him with his kin if he prefers that.

-----------

Solas and the Blight.
We have some indication that the Evanuris inadvertently created the Blight. The records indicate they discovered something so terrible in the deep that they collapsed their tunnels and fled. The Evanuris... these world shaping uber-beings.

And still, this was Pre-Veil. So it has nothing to do with bringing the Veil down.

If the Blight is the "most important thing" then perhaps he should spend some time explaining to everyone why.

The ancient elves aren't the answer... the ancient elves are probably why Thedas has the Blight.

So - until the elf explains more - I call bulls--t on his plans.

As I said, I respect you don't like the fictional elf.
We just ask for the same respect. It's a character many of us are intrigued with. And I'm pretty sure none of us will change our minds.
We don't need lectures on why we are wrong.
Sometimes we get these long winded diatribes, sometimes about absolutely nothing from certain people here of course, to talk circles and discredit. It gets annoying.
I can respect you don't believe or trust him. :) Have a good day.
Edit: I have that example because it is apparent a large number of us that are here on this thread, and endure the comparisons and names I mentioned, have in fact romanced him. Thus the choice of quote.
Cullen used to be bigoted towards mages, for a decent reason seeing as how up until his torture by mage scene he loved a mage, he was lost in misguided hate. Interestingly enough. Love, or friendship changes that. He redeemed himself. Of course cullen wasn't nearly as misguided but we don't know how far his hate really went. And I love cullen as a character regardless



#4207
Sah291

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-----------

 

Solas and the Blight. 

We have some indication that the Evanuris inadvertently created the Blight.  The records indicate they discovered something so terrible in the deep that they collapsed their tunnels and fled.  The Evanuris... these world shaping uber-beings.  

 

And still, this was Pre-Veil.  So it has nothing to do with bringing the Veil down.  

 

If the Blight is the "most important thing" then perhaps he should spend some time explaining to everyone why.  

 

The ancient elves aren't the answer... the ancient elves are probably why Thedas has the Blight.

 

So - until the elf explains more - I call bulls--t on his plans.

 

But, don't you think he's being set up as the villain and complete anti thesis of modern Thedas as a way to show that? This is a common story telling device. Solas created modern Thedas to protect people from that empire, which had grown corrupt, and from powerful god kings who enslaved his race (and possibly others). But virtually no one appreciates it at all. Not the modern elves, nor humans. Tevinter copied them. The Dalish want to recreate it. Humans have set up their own Andrastian empires, and engaged in exalted marches. The Qunari are just as bad and imperialistic. The Dwarves didn't do much with their freedom either.  It's like... modern Thedas is so fearful, ignorant, and intolerant of ancient knowledge like the fade, magic, and spirits (possibly among the best parts of the ancient world)... but still idealize possibly the very worst of the ancient world, like empire and war and slavery... It all seems kind of backwards. 


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#4208
German Soldier

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By no means do I support Solas on 90% of the things he whines about, but we've already seen what will happen by removing darkspawn from the Old Gods' call in Awakening. They'll simply flood the surface because they have no reason to be in the deep roads otherwise. Really, the Grey Wardens as a whole should have come to this conclusion by now but they apparently ignore any revelations about the blight and just keep flinging themselves at it as they were instead.

 

 

I don't think we know exactly the extensiveness of the calling of dormant old gods.
It may keep some darkspawns underground but i seriously doubt that all darkspawns are able to listen it from a long distances
Beside now we know that the calling can be replicated both Corypheus and the Nightmare did it so is not old god exclusive


#4209
Medhia_Nox

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But, don't you think he's being set up as the villain and complete anti thesis of modern Thedas as a way to show that? This is a common story telling device. Solas created modern Thedas to protect people from that empire, which had grown corrupt, and from powerful god kings who enslaved his race (and possibly others). But virtually no one appreciates it at all. Not the modern elves, nor humans. Tevinter copied them. The Dalish want to recreate it. Humans have set up their own Andrastian empires, and engaged in exalted marches. The Qunari are just as bad and imperialistic. The Dwarves didn't do much with their freedom either.  It's like... modern Thedas is so fearful, ignorant, and intolerant of ancient knowledge like the fade, magic, and spirits (possibly among the best parts of the ancient world)... but still idealize possibly the very worst of the ancient world, like empire and war and slavery... It all seems kind of backwards. 

 

Felassan and Solas both admit the ancient elven empire was just as bad.  It had slaves... it had class disparity... it had the rape of the natural world... it had genocide (of the dwarves) AND... if hints become fact, that empire gave birth to the greatest threat the entire planet has, or may ever, know - the darkspawn.

 

Pettiness is tiresome and should be overcome... but it doesn't generate world spanning annihilation. 

 

For me - arguing studying the Fade, magic and spirits is an entirely different topic than:  "Should the modern world be wiped out to re-create a second elven empire." 

 

For me.. the storytelling device is the same one used in Harry Potter.  At the end - Harry Potter destroys the most powerful magical wand in the world and tosses it.  Why?  Because he's grown up and realized that magic isn't a solution to anything (which is juxtaposed against his childhood belief of 11 that magic will make everything better).  It comes with its own problems.  He doesn't reject magic - he just doesn't fall for the illusion that magic is a cure all. 

 

Ancient Thedas is so clearly an example of this it's almost - for me - too obvious. 

 

Lastly - Solas didn't make anything.  This is like saying that gravity made humanity... or the sun made Rome... or the meteor that killed the dinosaurs made Bioware.  It was an event... what came after it has nothing to do with Solas.  Solas played no part in the shaping of history after the fall of Elvenhan.


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#4210
midnight tea

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Felassan and Solas both admit the ancient elven empire was just as bad.  It had slaves... it had class disparity... it had the rape of the natural world... it had genocide (of the dwarves) AND... if hints become fact, that empire gave birth to the greatest threat the entire planet has, or may ever, know - the darkspawn.

 

Inky: "This war proves that we can't go back to the way things were. I'll try to help this world move forward."

 

Solas: "You'd risk everything you have in the hope that the future is better? What if it isn't? What if you were to find that the future you shaped is worse than what was?"

 

And that's Solas's assessment of situation regardless of their relationship with Inquisitor and Inquisition.

 

Call Solas biased as much as you wish. But he is actually one of few people who saw both worlds and has a frame of reference. And even with sins of past world, he still thinks than it is better than what is now. Like.... modern world has absolutely everything old one has: class disparity, rape of the natural world, genocide (effectively of the elves, spirits and not doing much to help dwarves who face extinction) and rampant Blight. And as far as we know the Blight is a separate source of magic from blood or Fade. So if Fade will stay separate from the world, or perhaps even disappear one day, what will exist there to counter the Blight?

 

So things are definitely not better and require change. Any change it seems, as we don't yet know if Flemeth and Solas see the world having to go in the same direction - both of them however are working towards it and both of them see it as better than what is now.

 

For me - arguing studying the Fade, magic and spirits is an entirely different topic than:  "Should the modern world be wiped out to re-create a second elven empire." 

 

It's been said more than a zillion times now - this is NOT about creating second elven empire  <_< It IS predominantly about Fade, magic and spirits and their return to the world. Even if it doesn't mean the literal wiping of modern world it effectively means the end of civilization, world and people as we know it.

 

For me.. the storytelling device is the same one used in Harry Potter.  At the end - Harry Potter destroys the most powerful magical wand in the world and tosses it.  Why?  Because he's grown up and realized that magic isn't a solution to anything (which is juxtaposed against his childhood belief of 11 that magic will make everything better).  It comes with its own problems.  He doesn't reject magic - he just doesn't fall for the illusion that magic is a cure all. 

 

Er, no. He doesn't reject magic. Like, at all. What he rejects is an artifact with near-infinite power that is easy to abuse.

 

Which... you know... is precisely what Solas has done all those thousands years ago:

 

Vivienne: I confess, Solas, I expected you to be back at the Temple of Mythal.
Vivienne: Some powerful magic yet remains there... if it can be trusted.
Solas: For once, we agree. Many relics were lost for good reason.
Vivienne: You explore the Fade to ferret out such secrets, do you not?
Solas: When I awaken each morning, all I have with me are those secrets.
Solas: The power at the Temple of Mythal is tangible, potent... and far too easy to misuse.
Vivienne: We are not so different after all, my dear apostate. We both believe magic must be limited safely.
Solas: Only a fool would ignore such a stark reminder of the destruction of an empire.
Solas: We may disagree on many things, Enchanter. But neither of us is a fool.
Vivienne: You are too kind.

 

... Which is exactly why I have to shake my head at the whole notion that Solas wants to return exactly to how things were, elvhen empire and all. It's clear that Elvenhan had to go because of the abuse of power. But the problem of abuse of power is different than an issue of whole realm of magic being on its way out and the consequences it has for everyone.

 

Lastly - Solas didn't make anything.  This is like saying that gravity made humanity... or the sun made Rome... or the meteor that killed the dinosaurs made Bioware.  It was an event... what came after it has nothing to do with Solas.  Solas played no part in the shaping of history after the fall of Elvenhan.

 

Er... gravity did make humanity in shape how it is. So did changes to the world after K-T event. If it wasn't for it, life would evolve in a different way it did.

 

And yes - what came after has *everything* to do with Solas, because it's his invention that has changed the world. Profoundly. We're talking about the realm where magic exists and reality can be shaped with will and shifting of perception - and a barrier that has cut most people from means to do it and brought in eventual fear and lack of understanding of what was previously part of their world. To say that Soals played no part in shaping history after fall of Elvenhan is nothing short of naive - he has so much to do with it, that he can even be argued to be modern Thedas's Maker.

 

And that's just assuming that he dropped the Veil and didn't do anything aside from that while he was stuck dreaming. Which we can't really say that he did. We know that he's led his people and sent agents when he was dreaming - and we have no idea how they've influenced the world via Flemeth-patented method of nudges and shoves. We know that he's been trying to contact people through dreams, to varied effect. 

 

We also know of peculiar wolf worship in early human cultures (the Alamarri considered wolves sacred; guides of humanity in fact - later, the wolves were companions of humans) - it even makes Fereldan attachment to wolves and dogs particularly suspicious. Interestingly enough, even Kenric in JoH says that he forgot Fen'Harel in his memory game, Solas can bitterly remark "most people do". So we have no idea of his extent of influence on the world aside from the obvious. 


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#4211
Sah291

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Felassan and Solas both admit the ancient elven empire was just as bad. It had slaves... it had class disparity... it had the rape of the natural world... it had genocide (of the dwarves) AND... if hints become fact, that empire gave birth to the greatest threat the entire planet has, or may ever, know - the darkspawn.

Pettiness is tiresome and should be overcome... but it doesn't generate world spanning annihilation.

For me - arguing studying the Fade, magic and spirits is an entirely different topic than: "Should the modern world be wiped out to re-create a second elven empire."

For me.. the storytelling device is the same one used in Harry Potter. At the end - Harry Potter destroys the most powerful magical wand in the world and tosses it. Why? Because he's grown up and realized that magic isn't a solution to anything (which is juxtaposed against his childhood belief of 11 that magic will make everything better). It comes with its own problems. He doesn't reject magic - he just doesn't fall for the illusion that magic is a cure all.

Ancient Thedas is so clearly an example of this it's almost - for me - too obvious.

Lastly - Solas didn't make anything. This is like saying that gravity made humanity... or the sun made Rome... or the meteor that killed the dinosaurs made Bioware. It was an event... what came after it has nothing to do with Solas. Solas played no part in the shaping of history after the fall of Elvenhan.

To me, ancient Elvhenan reminds me a bit of the Atlantis myth. Atlantis is often depicted in stories as a highly advanced civilization with ancient secrets, but the fall of Atlantis was actually portrayed as a good thing. They were supposed to be imperialists and expansionists, and it was ancient Athens, who waged a rebellion against them, that was portrayed as the superior society.

As for Solas, I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. It's not just the creation of the Veil, but he lead a rebellion, remnants of which still exist in modern Thedas. You could kill or imprison Solas, the person, but the spirit would remain. That's the point. Simply ignoring or wishing magic or spirits away does not solve things. Remaining ignorant of magic does not solve everything any more than thinking it's the answer to everything.
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#4212
Medhia_Nox

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@midnight tea:  Did you just quote me saying he doesn't reject magic... and then go off on your high horse telling me he doesn't reject magic?

Yeah, that's about what I expect from you.


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#4213
Seraphim24

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To me, ancient Elvhenan reminds me a bit of the Atlantis myth. Atlantis is often depicted in stories as a highly advanced civilization with ancient secrets, but the fall of Atlantis was actually portrayed as a good thing. They were supposed to be imperialists and expansionists, and it was ancient Athens, who waged a rebellion against them, that was portrayed as the superior society.

As for Solas, I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. It's not just the creation of the Veil, but he lead a rebellion, remnants of which still exist in modern Thedas. You could kill or imprison Solas, the person, but the spirit would remain. That's the point. Simply ignoring or wishing magic or spirits away does not solve things. Remaining ignorant of magic does not solve everything any more than thinking it's the answer to everything.

 

That's actually a pretty interesting analogy... because to me Athen's pespective on Atlantis (or just, Solas's view of the ancient world) reminds me of the myth of the continent of Mu, which was supposed to pre-date Atlantis and explains that Atlantis had declined as a civilization for some time prior to the overthrow by Atlantis. In fact, according to the writer of the continent of Mu, ancient Greece was closer culturally and ideal-wise to Mu, this super ancient historical society, than Atlantis (supposedly a colony of Mu) which had declined fairly severely by the time of it's supposed conflict with ancient Greece.

 

Whether Mu was real or not is hard to say, but it's a reminder that even if you start going far back in time, there might still be something even further back in time after that. Plato was ultimately just giving his perspective on one particular situation...

 

So maybe it's fine that Atlantis fell, but I don't trust Solas to be the ultimate end all be all on the state of the world or all it's histories and secrets.

 

Also, in this analogy, Solas was a part of that supposedly decadent and evil Atlantean society, and participated to a degree in those excesses, not a member of Athens...



#4214
BansheeOwnage

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Solas is talking about old gods and disliked the context of killing them with demon army when they are not even archdemons yet.
He never said killing Archdemon is bad.

See, this is why humanity scares me. People can look at the exact same thing and get completely different things from it.

 

:wacko:

 

 

I don't really care at all about Solas' reasoning. I have no doubt that it has something to do with his whole trickster god alter ego, but since he gives objections with no alternate solutions, he can stuff it.

 

Aside from using  demons seems to me that the principle behind the plan is a good one. I for one would wholeheartedly support the eradication of the Old Gods, unless someone can devise a plan to remove the darkspawn threat entirely, thereby making such a plan unnecessary.

 

That's a bit naive. Even if there isn't something we're not seeing that would mean bad things would happen if the sleeping Old Gods were destroyed, there is still something we can see: The Darkspawn remain underground searching for an Old God between blights. There is a very real possibility that they'll start spilling out onto the surface if there isn't one calling to them. Then it's the fall of the Dwarven Empire again, only on the surface. It wouldn't be pretty.


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#4215
Medhia_Nox

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@Sah291:  So, you're saying that it was a good thing the hyper-advanced race was removed because they destroyed and conquered?

And then you're saying you want it back?

 

Or - rather - you want the technology they used. 

 

And - do you believe another group of hyper-advanced people will do it "right" this time?  Where on Thedas is this group of people who will do it right?

 

The point is... if you return to the time of the Evanuris... even if you kill the Evanuris, you're going to get a series of super beings that endanger the world again.  Maybe in 100 years... maybe in 1000.  It doesn't matter. 

 

If Solas doesn't want a new elven empire... who's he gonna allow to inherit this gift of his? 

 

Do you think modern Thedosians are going to become wiser with hyper-advanced magical weaponry at their disposal?  How's that worked for our species? 

 

"Our world faces a crisis as yet unperceived by those possessing power to make great decisions for good or evil. The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophe." Albert Einstein


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#4216
Hanako Ikezawa

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Personally, I think we already have the answer to what will happen once the final Archdemon is killed and we've had it for years: the Darkspawn and Ghouls all become Awakened. In Dragon Age: Awakening, the Awakened Darkspawn became what they are because the Architect gave them a resistance to the call of the Old Gods, causing that to no longer indoctrinate and dominate their minds. With the final Old God killed, there is no more call which means all the Darkspawn and Ghouls would experience what the Awakened did. This could lead to devastating results, like the Mother going insane from no longer hearing the call. And like other cultures and like in Awakening, the Darkspawn could be divided against themselves and wage war. That may sound good to some, but we saw what happened when the Architect and Mother had their spat, and this would be immeasurably larger in scale.


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#4217
Almostfaceman

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See, this is why humanity scares me. People can look at the exact same thing and get completely different things from it.

 

:wacko:

 

 

 

It's obvious that old gods in my earlier post are only important in their role as arch demons. That's the context of the Wardens searching them out to destroy them, that's the context Solas bases his objections to their plan. If the old gods didn't become arch demons and lead Blights, the Wardens wouldn't care about them and Solas wouldn't have a Warden-arch demon-kiling-plan to criticize. I just chalk up Aren's (and the sock puppet patrol) obtuseness to pride. They just don't want to admit they're wrong. Hardly surprising. 



#4218
Almostfaceman

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Personally, I think we already have the answer to what will happen once the final Archdemon is killed and we've had it for years: the Darkspawn and Ghouls all become Awakened. In Dragon Age: Awakening, the Awakened Darkspawn became what they are because the Architect gave them a resistance to the call of the Old Gods, causing that to no longer indoctrinate and dominate their minds. With the final Old God killed, there is no more call which means all the Darkspawn and Ghouls would experience what the Awakened did. This could lead to devastating results, like the Mother going insane from no longer hearing the call. And like other cultures and like in Awakening, the Darkspawn could be divided against themselves and wage war. That may sound good to some, but we saw what happened when the Architect and Mother had their spat, and this would be immeasurably larger in scale. 

 

Huh. Interesting. 



#4219
midnight tea

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@midnight tea:  Did you just quote me saying he doesn't reject magic... and then go off on your high horse telling me he doesn't reject magic?

 

Yeah, that's about what I expect from you.

 

Er, so you basically accuse me of reading things wrong... without reading what I actually said and instead accusing me of "going off on my high horse" -_-?

 

What's more - I've not done it in any sneering or superior tone or anything of the sort. I disagreed and presented my perspective, all neutrally. That you "expect this or that from me" and read into everything I say to confirm your "expectations" so much that you accuse me of stuff at any possible occasion yet again speaks more of you than it does of me.

 

Anyway - what you said is that Harry Potter has rejected magic as a solution to all of his problems and belief that magic will make it all better. I said that he didn't do that at all. It wasn't about "rejecting magic" as a solution for everything or whatever, but specific power that can be easily abused. 

 

Context. It matters.


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#4220
Hanako Ikezawa

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Huh. Interesting. 

Yeah, ironically the Old Gods are both the best and worst things about the Darkspawn. They are the worst because when they become an Archdemon they lead them against the world as a Blight, but they are the best because between Blights they keep practically all the Darkspawn underground searching for them, giving the world time to recover and prepare.


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#4221
Xilizhra

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"Our world faces a crisis as yet unperceived by those possessing power to make great decisions for good or evil. The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophe." Albert Einstein

It's probably worth noting that he was wrong.

 

Anyway, who here shares my opinion on Solas; that it's too early to make any final judgments as to what to do, and that we need to gather more information as our first priority?


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#4222
Almostfaceman

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It's probably worth noting that he was wrong.

 

Anyway, who here shares my opinion on Solas; that it's too early to make any final judgments as to what to do, and that we need to gather more information as our first priority?

 

I've been pretty much saying this for a good chunk of this thread, though I have no problem killing Solas if we end up having to do so to save millions. 



#4223
Lunatica

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...Care to read the entirety of my comment?

You're saying that there is value into saving something while saying at the same time to not know why which mean you have no idea of what you're talking about but nonetheless jumped to that conclusion because someone else said so....


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#4224
Sah291

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That's actually a pretty interesting analogy... because to me Athen's pespective on Atlantis reminds me of the myth of the continent of Mu, which was supposed to pre-date Atlantis and explains that Atlantis had declined as a civilization for some time prior to the overthrow by Atlantis. In fact, according to the writer of the continent of Mu, ancient Greece was closer culturally and ideal-wise to Mu, this super ancient historical society, than Atlantis (supposedly a colony of Mu) which had declined fairly severely by the time of it's supposed conflict with ancient Greece.
 
Whether Mu was real or not is hard to say, but it's a reminder that even if you start going far back in time, there might still be something even further back in time after that.


True enough, but what I meant to say in making the analogy was how Atlantis was used as an antagonist to highlight the virtues of Athens. Though today, people tend to idealize the idea of the lost mythical civilization.

As Tea pointed out in Solas' convo with Vivienne, there's an overarching debate on what ought to be left behind in the past (that was maybe lost for good reason), and what ought to be remembered (and that was a shame to lose). This is hardly a black and white issue, either.

#4225
midnight tea

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@Sah291:  So, you're saying that it was a good thing the hyper-advanced race was removed because they destroyed and conquered?

And then you're saying you want it back?

 

Or - rather - you want the technology they used. 

 

And - do you believe another group of hyper-advanced people will do it "right" this time?  Where on Thedas is this group of people who will do it right?

 

The point is... if you return to the time of the Evanuris... even if you kill the Evanuris, you're going to get a series of super beings that endanger the world again.  Maybe in 100 years... maybe in 1000.  It doesn't matter. 

 

If Solas doesn't want a new elven empire... who's he gonna allow to inherit this gift of his? 

 

Do you think modern Thedosians are going to become wiser with hyper-advanced magical weaponry at their disposal?  How's that worked for our species? 

 
"Our world faces a crisis as yet unperceived by those possessing power to make great decisions for good or evil. The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophe." Albert Einstein

 

But... but that's the point many people tried to make. That the problem isn't magic per se, but power and lack of responsibility when it's being used :huh:

 

Thing is that this problem will exist whether the world is Veilles and Veiled. I mean...you yourself mentioned our modern world, so let's just look at it. Not an ounce of magic, yet we're effectively either at a time or nearing the time where we can endanger it. And since Thedas is at a time where both printing press, paper (and therefore fairly easily available knowledge) and steam engine has been invented, they'd be on that route too and if things go in similar way to our world, they'd find themselves in the exact same spot, be it in 100 years or 1000.

 

I mean... heck, they didn't even need to reach that time, given that Teviter has already screwed the Veiled world majorly once already, predominantly because of ignorance and arrogance.

 

And that's the thing - whether it was Solas's specific idea to see if the world can NOT find means to destroy itself if he pushes the magic away, or it was simply the result of preventing Evanuris to destroy the world, the world without (much) magic in it didn't work out. Pushing the Fade away turned out to not be a working solution. At least so far as we know. It obviously let the world survive the Evanuris, but we don't know for how long, considering that the world didn't need them to find itself on a brink.