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[BansheeOwnage]

Solas: Yes! Would it have worked? Do you know? Did they? The fools who first unleashed the Blight upon this world thought they were unlocking ultimate power. Forgive me, the entire idea is... unnerving.

Solas may be talking about the Magisters Sidereal of course, but I wonder if he's actually/also referring to the Evanuris. There is evidence that suggests they were messing around with the power of the blight (possibly to fight the Titans, which would explain red lyrium, and we do know that at least Andruil did.

 

That threat, either of unleashing it upon the world at large (which includes spirits since the fade was part of the world) or of simply becoming even more superpowered Evanuris with blight magic, or both, may be what Solas was so afraid of that he raised the veil. The fact that he's so terrified of it in general indicates he's had some experience with it. If Mythal didn't want to go along with the others and use the blight, that would explain why they "killed" her.

 

I wonder what would happen if spirits/the fade became blighted.

 

If the material and the fade were one in the same, was the void also part of the world? Or was it another "part" of the fade, or simply something physical past the Deep Roads?

 

 

I don't think we know exactly the extensiveness of the calling of dormant old gods.

It may keep some darkspawns underground but i seriously doubt that all darkspawns are able to listen it from a long distances

Beside now we know that the calling can be replicated both Corypheus and the Nightmare did it so is not old god exclusive

It helps if you think of the calling not as an audible sound, but as something that gnaws at your mind, in your mind. So it doesn't have to have a range limit, although it might. Apparently though, it does become audible if you're very, very close to a sleeping Old God, according to the Grey Warden codex at the mine in the Western Approach.

 

Presumably (and I don't remember if this was confirmed), the song changes once the Old God is infected with the blight.

 

Interestingly enough, even Kenric in JoH says that he forgot Fen'Harel in his memory game, Solas can bitterly remark "most people do". So we have no idea of his extent of influence on the world aside from the obvious. 

That was funny

 

Personally, I think we already have the answer to what will happen once the final Archdemon is killed and we've had it for years: the Darkspawn and Ghouls all become Awakened. In Dragon Age: Awakening, the Awakened Darkspawn became what they are because the Architect gave them a resistance to the call of the Old Gods, causing that to no longer indoctrinate and dominate their minds. With the final Old God killed, there is no more call which means all the Darkspawn and Ghouls would experience what the Awakened did. This could lead to devastating results, like the Mother going insane from no longer hearing the call. And like other cultures and like in Awakening, the Darkspawn could be divided against themselves and wage war. That may sound good to some, but we saw what happened when the Architect and Mother had their spat, and this would be immeasurably larger in scale.

Interesting, I forgot about the details of Awakening.

[Macha'Anu]

It's probably worth noting that he was wrong.

 

Anyway, who here shares my opinion on Solas; that it's too early to make any final judgments as to what to do, and that we need to gather more information as our first priority?

*Raises Hand* I too have no problem in killing the guy if it comes too it but I'm not condemning him on so little information. "Even if this world must die" I just completed another playthrough a few míns ago, as I'm still catching up on the other romances and paths to choose in the game, and when he said that I began to wonder if he even has a plan now that his only real way to remove the Veil is shattered in tiny pieces. I'll await the next installment and see just exactly what's going on before I go all judge jury executioner. 

[BansheeOwnage]

You're saying that there is value into saving something while saying at the same time to not know why which mean you have no idea of what you're talking about but nonetheless jumped to that conclusion because someone else said so....

I think the problem here is that you're arguing about whether something has value and is worth preserving, which is obviously very subjective.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

*Raises Hand* I too have no problem in killing the guy if it comes too it but I'm not condemning him on so little information. "Even if this world must die" I just completed another playthrough a few míns ago, as I'm still catching up on the other romances and paths to choose in the game, and when he said that I began to wonder if he even has a plan now that his only real way to remove the Veil is shattered in tiny pieces. I'll await the next installment and see just exactly what's going on before I go all judge jury executioner. 

He has part of a plan. Like...12% of a plan. 

[Macha'Anu]

He has part of a plan. Like...12% of a plan. 

12% Well I'm not sure a pinch of a plan can be executed successfully. So I'll wait and see what's going on. 

[Almostfaceman]

Solas may be talking about the Magisters Sidereal of course, but I wonder if he's actually/also referring to the Evanuris. There is evidence that suggests they were messing around with the power of the blight (possibly to fight the Titans, which would explain red lyrium, and we do know that at least Andruil did.

 

 

I wonder the same thing and yeah, it could go either way. But it's been strongly hinted that something the Evanuris (or Mythal) did caused the Blight. Maybe something the Magisters did just made it worse, the Blights didn't appear on the surface and assault the Dwarven kingdoms until the Magisters went into the Fade physically. 

[Sah291]

@Sah291: So, you're saying that it was a good thing the hyper-advanced race was removed because they destroyed and conquered?
And then you're saying you want it back?

Or - rather - you want the technology they used.

And - do you believe another group of hyper-advanced people will do it "right" this time? Where on Thedas is this group of people who will do it right?

The point is... if you return to the time of the Evanuris... even if you kill the Evanuris, you're going to get a series of super beings that endanger the world again. Maybe in 100 years... maybe in 1000. It doesn't matter.

If Solas doesn't want a new elven empire... who's he gonna allow to inherit this gift of his?

Do you think modern Thedosians are going to become wiser with hyper-advanced magical weaponry at their disposal? How's that worked for our species?

"Our world faces a crisis as yet unperceived by those possessing power to make great decisions for good or evil. The unleashed power of the atom has changed everything save our modes of thinking and we thus drift toward unparalleled catastrophe." Albert Einstein

Yes, I'm saying it's probably a good thing their empire fell, as it sounds like it had a lot of internal problems anyway.

But I don't see magic or the elven race as being synonymous with empire either. Empire is an abstraction. A form of government. Sure, magical technology can be used to further such ends, but that's not all.

Personally I'm not one to think that the world can be made completely safe, or that it can ever be solved, or that it would necessarily even stay fixed even if we could somehow manage it. I think I would probably differ with Solas on that point.

I think magic can be used for nefarious purposes, but so can't any technology or knowledge. When you hide something or bury it, you aren't necessarily getting rid of it completely, but ensuring only a small elite will ever have it. Which is not necessarily a good deterrent for oppressive empires.

[Lunatica]

 

That's a bit naive. Even if there isn't something we're not seeing that would mean bad things would happen if the sleeping Old Gods were destroyed, there is still something we can see: The Darkspawn remain underground searching for an Old God between blights. There is a very real possibility that they'll start spilling out onto the surface if there isn't one calling to them. Then it's the fall of the Dwarven Empire again, only on the surface. It wouldn't be pretty.

 

 

 There is an idea about the payoff, being the removal of the singular entity that can command the entire darkspawn horde above ground. Even if they began to flood to the surface as a result of the lack of any Old Gods to call to them, they'd at least be a far less organized force. Facing a disorganized mass of darkspawn is preferable to facing a tightly knit legion of monsters that do not need to sleep, never get tired, and are led by a monster that is massively destructive by itself.

 

 

Of course this is assuming that  the darkspawn are kept underground only because of the calling....which doesn't seem to be the case since they were not attracted by Corypheus and the Nightmare demon on the surface.

[Lunatica]

I think the problem here is that you're arguing about whether something has value and is worth preserving, which is obviously very subjective.

The problem here is that it was never augmented why the archdemons are worth saving by Flemeth,Solas or any other supporter of the idea.

[midnight tea]

You're saying that there is value into saving something while saying at the same time to not know why which mean you have no idea of what you're talking about but nonetheless jumped to that conclusion because someone else said so....

 

 Well, you've certainly mastered the art of jumping to conclusions...

 

Because saying that something has value doesn't mean that I have to know precisely what that value is and to whom. All I know that there IS value, because Flemeth isn't just saying that there is - she's acting like it is since DAO.

 

Whatever other reasons she's had Morrigan sent away with the Warden, the chance to perform Dark Ritual was one of them. And later, in DAI, Flemeth confirms that she's instilled in Morrigan a deep need of preserving ancient magic and secrets ("you seek to preserve the powers that were, but to what end? It is because I taught you, girl. Because things happened that were never meant to happen.") - which we totally see her do, both in case of Archdmemon's soul and Well Of Sorrows, which go as far as overriding her deep sense of self-preservation and of escaping her mother's influence.

 

Plus - even with all the things Flemeth does and says having to be taken with a grain of salt, there OBVIOUSLY had to be a reason why she's lured Kieran into the raw Fade, of all places. And we do have a glimpse of what that could be, aside from her declared intentions:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

DAI uses distinct and clear visual coding for their magic. And we see only a few instances of blue magic being used or present - emanating from the Well of Sorrows and being used by ancient beings of great power, like Solas and Flemeth. And, of course, OGB Kieran. That's not any sort of coincidence.

 

So yeah.. basing everything on what something someone just said?  That simply didn't happen and you claiming that I've done so holds no water under scrutiny whatsoever.

[midnight tea]

The problem here is that it was never augmented why the archdemons are worth saving by Flemeth,Solas or any other supporter of the idea.

 

We don't know *why* yet, all we know that attempts to preserve it happened, so obviously they happened for a reason!

[Seraphim24]

Yes, I'm saying it's probably a good thing their empire fell, as it sounds like it had a lot of internal problems anyway.

But I don't see magic or the elven race as being synonymous with empire either. Empire is an abstraction. A form of government. Sure, magical technology can be used to further such ends, but that's not all.

Personally I'm not one to think that the world can be made completely safe, or that it can ever be solved, or that it would necessarily even stay fixed even if we could somehow manage it. I think I would probably differ with Solas on that point.

I think magic can be used for nefarious purposes, but so can't any technology or knowledge. When you hide something or bury it, you aren't necessarily getting rid of it completely, but ensuring only a small elite will ever have it. Which is not necessarily a good deterrent for oppressive empires.

 

Well it's not good for the small elite either because the society becomes topheavy and collapses...

 

Whenever power and wealth concentrates in the hands of a few, society always collapses, there isn't a single exception in history. I'd again reference a good example RL, but people probably know which one that is...

[Lunatica]

 Well, you've certainly mastered the art of jumping to conclusions...

 

Because saying that something has value doesn't mean that I have to know precisely what that value is and to whom. All I know that there IS value, because Flemeth isn't just saying that there is - she's acting like it is since DAO.

 

 

We don't know *why* yet, all we know that attempts to preserve it happened, so obviously they happened for a reason!

You don't know what the value is,you don't know what the reason is and yet you find it valuable because  someone else attempted to do it?

I expected a better rationale.

[German Soldier]

I don't find any good reasons to find valuable the souls of those beings whom both Solas and Flemeth seem to care about since they never argumented their reasons there is simply no discussion.

Without arguments how the heck am i supposed to form an opinion about their reasons?

On the other hand arguments about the value in eradicating them coud be made without problems.

[kimgoold]

Did you play Trespasser? I ask because Solas was put in a position where he had no reason whatsoever to lie, had nothing to gain by lying, would have been better off not talking to the Inquisitor at all, would have served his plans more securely by letting the Inquisitor die or by killing the Inquisitor. He doesn't even let the Inquisitor see him "in the best possible light."

 

There's no reasonable argument that can be made that Solas lied to the Inquisitor in Trespasser, there at the end. 

 

One source of information is not the way to get all the facts and a balanced perspective, Anyone can write something on a wall that does not make it true or untrue. I want more information from sources other than Solas, other ancient elves who were there and know both sides of the story. I still see Solas as closer to the Dalish stories a deceiver and trickster,  I could be wrong but until we get more information we don't know if he is as he portrays himself or as the Dalish legends depict him.

[Heimdall]

You don't know what the value is,you don't know what the reason is and yet you find it valuable because someone else attempted to do it?
I expected a better rationale.

From the value ancient beings like Solas and Flemeth place in them, we can infer that there's some value and importance to the old gods. We don't know precisely why, but we know neither of those two would likely place great value in their preservation if they were trivial.

[Almostfaceman]

One source of information is not the way to get all the facts and a balanced perspective, Anyone can write something on a wall that does not make it true or untrue. I want more information from sources other than Solas, other ancient elves who were there and know both sides of the story. I still see Solas as closer to the Dalish stories a deceiver and trickster,  I could be wrong but until we get more information we don't know if he is as he portrays himself or as the Dalish legends depict him.

 

Yeah, Solas isn't the only source in Trespasser. 

 

Anyone can question anything and ignore evidence in the game. But unless the doubt is founded in something it doesn't carry a lot of weight. 

[midnight tea]

 

You don't know what the value is,you don't know what the reason is and yet you find it valuable because  someone else attempted to do it?

I expected a better rationale.

 

It is entirely rational, especially that one who attempts to preserve the Old Gold's soul is none other but one of pivotal characters whose actions matter to the over-arching narrative. To dismiss her actions is as irrational as you can get. Flemeth is not your random Joe Shmoe.

 

Seriously, yapping about "not knowing value" of it is nothing other than logical fallacy of moving the goalpost. Even if we don't know the exact value or reasons, it's valuable enough for important character to take action. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Yes, I'm saying it's probably a good thing their empire fell, as it sounds like it had a lot of internal problems anyway.

But I don't see magic or the elven race as being synonymous with empire either. Empire is an abstraction. A form of government. Sure, magical technology can be used to further such ends, but that's not all.

Personally I'm not one to think that the world can be made completely safe, or that it can ever be solved, or that it would necessarily even stay fixed even if we could somehow manage it. I think I would probably differ with Solas on that point.

I think magic can be used for nefarious purposes, but so can't any technology or knowledge. When you hide something or bury it, you aren't necessarily getting rid of it completely, but ensuring only a small elite will ever have it. Which is not necessarily a good deterrent for oppressive empires.

 

So... it would be better to have magic the likes of the Evanuris so that when people decide to abuse something they can do it to the best of their ability?

 

Petty squabbles of a socio-political ecosystem is too low brow I guess?  Better to have deity like beings walking Thedas?

[Almostfaceman]

So... it would be better to have magic the likes of the Evanuris so that when people decide to abuse something they can do it to the best of their ability?

 

Or if they decide to benefit they can do so to the best of their ability. Are you a Luddite? 

[kimgoold]

I cannot remember seeing any codex on the Evanuris by a source other than Solas or those he freed, and you must admit that isn't a wide or impartial source of information. If there are others where did you find them?

[Almostfaceman]

I cannot remember seeing any codex on the Evanuris by a source other than Solas or those he freed, and you must admit that isn't a wide or impartial source of information. If there are others where did you find them?

 

You should probably play Trespasser again to refresh your memory. Here's a taste.

 

[Medhia_Nox]

Or if they decide to benefit they can do so to the best of their ability. Are you a Luddite? 

 

In a fashion, but mostly just a person that realizes that 7.4 billion humans is a plague... not progress. 

 

And I gather you're a humanist? 
 

Have you even met your race and seen what they do with power?  I know Thedas is fantasy.. but, really.

[Almostfaceman]

In a fashion, but mostly just a person that realizes that 7.4 billion humans is a plague... not progress. 

 

 

And that's such a vile thing to say you can stop speaking to me right now. Adieu. 

[German Soldier]

From the value ancient beings like Solas and Flemeth place in them, we can infer that there's some value and importance to the old gods. We don't know precisely why, but we know neither of those two would likely place great value in their preservation if they were trivial.

The question is why they put value into the Old gods?

An opinion on whether they are valuable or not cannot be formed if they don't tell us their rationale.

On the other hand i can tell you the rationale behind killing them for good.