4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

I think the implications are pretty clear the Fade (source of magic) and the world (modern Thedas) were one and the same, Solas viewed the abuses of the (spelling ergh) Elvenhathan (Evanuris?) as contrary to the purpose of magic and the world generally.

 

I think the idea is akin to Moses during the excesses of the Pharaoh's of Egypt.

 

The problem with all these analogies though is again, Solas is the pharaoh, or he is Atlantis. He's not Moses.

 

That is a critical difference, it's the dividing line between someone who is a hipster trying to avoid blame for all the problems they caused by simply informing everyone of the existence of them, and someone who actually is going to aid the situation.

 

Besides, all we really needed was a wise Elven Scholar to determine the meaning of a lot of ancient Elven traditions, or even just a member of Evanuris, the Pantheon is gone though because of....

 

At any rate, Solas would certainly be incapable of restoring magic and the fade together with modern reality. He also seems incapable of stopping the Evanuris if they were evil, stopping the blight, stopping even the Inquisitor from doing whatever they want, etc.

[Sah291]

So... it would be better to have magic the likes of the Evanuris so that when people decide to abuse something they can do it to the best of their ability?
 
Petty squabbles of a socio-political ecosystem is too low brow I guess?  Better to have deity like beings walking Thedas?

The way I interpreted it was that the Evanuris came to power not because of magic (which was common), but because they were war heroes. They were deified over time, but let's not mistake the reasons they were so ardently worshipped by the people.

[Medhia_Nox]

And that's such a vile thing to say you can stop speaking to me right now. Adieu. 

 

Yep, humanist.

Global extinction event caused by humanity... and I alone am vile for holding them accountable. 

 

I'll miss you.

[Heimdall]

The question is why they put value into the Old gods?
An opinion on whether they are valuable or not cannot be formed if they don't tell us their rationale.
On the other hand i can tell you the rationale behind killing them for good.

can we form a fully informed judgment on their value at this point? No. However, we know enough about Flemeth and Solas to know they wouldn't be so concerned if the Old Gods had no value. We can't determine that value precisely, but we can say they likely have some value that warrants the level of concern from two ancient elven deities.

[Medhia_Nox]

The way I interpreted it was that the Evanuris came to power not because of magic (which was common), but because they were war heroes. They were deified over time, but let's not mistake the reasons they were so ardently worshipped by the people.

 

You think they had the powers they did because they were war heroes?

[Lulupab]

I don't the the Evanuris can be killed by conventional means, hence Solas imprisoned them.

 

I don't think Solas can be killed too, heck the elder one was not "killed" as well.

 

There is some godhood in them.

[Xilizhra]

Yep, humanist.

Global extinction event caused by humanity... and I alone am vile for holding them accountable. 

 

I'll miss you.

Well, then, you should welcome the return of the Evanuris, as they'd kill off enough humans to prevent them from becoming any more plaguelike on Thedas!

[Hellion Rex]

I don't the the Evanuris could be killed by conventional means, hence Solas imprisoned them.

 

I don't think Solas can be killed too, heck the elder one was not "killed" as well.

 

There is some godhood in them.

I think prior to him stealing whatever it was from Mythal, I think he had the capacity to die. 

 

However, I do think Evanuris could be killed, it's simply that they know a bunch of ways to avoid it (Mythal's horcrux being an example).

 

I would assume Solas could only imprison them together cause he couldn't be sure whether or not he could kill them permanently. Also, even if he was Evanuris level, it was one of him versus half a dozen other beings of the same power level, and imprisonment was all he could accomplish.

[Sah291]

You think they had the powers they did because they were war heroes?

Absolutely. Rulers have the power to rule because it is given to them. Solas said that the war had created a desire for hierarchy, simplicity, chains of command, etc. This is how they became gods. Or in other words, their spirits became more powerful than any one individual.

So yes, I think it is better for the people, the masses, to understand they are invested with divine power as well. Such people are not inherently better or more godlike than they themselves have the potential to be.

[Hellion Rex]

Absolutely. Rulers have the power to rule because it is given to them. Solas said that the war had created a desire for hierarchy, simplicity, chains of command, etc. This is how they became gods. Or in other words, their spirits became more powerful than any one individual.

So yes, I think it is better for the people, the masses, to understand they are invested with divine power as well. Such people are not inherently better or more godlike than they themselves have the potential to be.

Ummm, rulers don't have to have power or devotion be given to them willingly. They can simply take power or demand devotion by force. 

[midnight tea]

The question is why they put value into the Old gods?

An opinion on whether they are valuable or not cannot be formed if they don't tell us their rationale.

On the other hand i can tell you the rationale behind killing them for good.

 

That's like asking a question of what value Solas has put on restoring the 'world of the elves'. The logical answer now is "we don't yet know - we don't have enough information to have any definitive opinions". Yet the fact remains that that for Solas and his people there's a tremendous value, otherwise he wouldn't be doing something he obviously takes no pleasure in.

 

It's the same with preserving OGB - we don't know the exact reason why Flemeth tried and save one. We probably weren't said more because it's way too early for it - all we know that she worked towards it and sought Kieran through all those years, which means that obviously there's value to her in Old God's soul, even if that soul belonged to the Old God that got corrupted.

[Lulupab]

I think prior to him stealing whatever it was from Mythal, I think he had the capacity to die. 

 

However, I do think Evanuris could be killed, it's simply that they know a bunch of ways to avoid it (Mythal's horcrux being an example).

 

I would assume Solas could only imprison them together cause he couldn't be sure whether or not he could kill them permanently. Also, even if he was Evanuris level, it was one of him versus half a dozen other beings of the same power level, and imprisonment was all he could accomplish.

 

Well I did say they can't die to conventional means. Mythal's so called "murder" was obviously not conventional yet she survived even that.

 

So assuming this is true, stabbing and simple magic will not kill them.

[Medhia_Nox]

Absolutely. Rulers have the power to rule because it is given to them. Solas said that the war had created a desire for hierarchy, simplicity, chains of command, etc. This is how they became gods. Or in other words, their spirits became more powerful than any one individual.

So yes, I think it is better for the people, the masses, to understand they are invested with divine power as well. Such people are not inherently better or more godlike than they themselves have the potential to be.

 

So, you promote a new hell on Thedas where new gods are chosen? 

 

Or do you actually believe people wouldn't put their belief in leaders this time?

[Seraphim24]

Oh my perfect post was a bit too much for some people, I keep it simpler.

 

Solas is a member of the community he regales against, his solution is to accelerate it's goals whilist simultaneously pointing out how wrong they are, so that all the while declaring them to be bad so as to avoid being targeted for his own failings in that respect.

 

As I said, he is Atlantis in the Atlantis analogy, he is the Pharaoh in the Moses analogy. That's the important difference.

 

He deserves to die, now, it's just, that, simple.

 

There are countless obvious analogies throughout history that support the same point.

[Lulupab]

Oh my perfect post was a bit too much for some people, I keep it simpler.

 

Solas is a member of the community he regales against, his solution is to accelerate it's goals whilist simultaneously pointing out how wrong they are, so that all the while declaring them to be bad so as to avoid being targeted for his own failings in that respect.

 

As I said, he is Atlantis in the Atlantis analogy, he is the Pharaoh in the Moses analogy. That's the important difference.

 

He deserves to die, now, it's just, that, simple.

 

There are countless obvious analogies throughout history that support the same point.

 

Simple and Solas in the same sentence makes everything else you say invalid. Literally nothing about him is simple.

[Seraphim24]

Simple and Solas in the same sentence makes everything else you say invalid. Literally nothing about him is simple.

 

Oh wow you got me, you guys are so ace.

 

He's the simplest person there is, the guy who attempts to use knowledge as a shield against his own excesses and problems, in order to carry out his own personal vendettas, as well as ultimately accelerate the needs and wishes of the harbingers of those excesses.

 

The problem is he is as transparent as glass.

[Gwydden]

For me.. the storytelling device is the same one used in Harry Potter.  At the end - Harry Potter destroys the most powerful magical wand in the world and tosses it.  Why?  Because he's grown up and realized that magic isn't a solution to anything (which is juxtaposed against his childhood belief of 11 that magic will make everything better).  It comes with its own problems.  He doesn't reject magic - he just doesn't fall for the illusion that magic is a cure all. 

 

Ancient Thedas is so clearly an example of this it's almost - for me - too obvious. 

Interesting. I think this might build upon your point:

 

"I have a little theory that I'd like to air here, if I may. What is it that you think makes you magicians? Is it because you are intelligent? Is it because you are brave and good? Is it because you're special?

 

"Maybe. Who knows. But I'll tell you something: I think you're magicians because you're unhappy. A magician is strong because he feels pain. He feels the difference between what the world is and what he would make of it. Or what did you think that stuff in your chest was? A magician is strong because he hurts more than others. His wound is his strength.

 

"Most people carry that pain around inside them their whole lives, until they kill the pain by other means, or until it kills them. But you, my friends, you found another way: a way to use the pain. To burn it as fuel, for light and warmth. You have learned to break the world that has tried to break you."

 

The Magicians, by Lev Grossman

I think Solas is in many ways the epitome of that, whether intentionally or not.

[Seraphim24]

Moreover I question the extent to which "power can be taken." Yes it's true, power can be taken, in a sense, but I subscribe to the Dostoyevsky Crime and Punishment module which purports that the crime is a form of punishment, people holding artificial power obtained through force or chaos tend to kind of collapse on themselves as it becomes apparent it doesn't actually give the power inherent within the institutions/people that is sought.

 

RL examples which are forbidden I'll just vaguely reference but essentially you see predominantly the expression of power is this short burst that doesn't really accomplish anything long-term and was fueled entirely by feelings of powerlessness on the perpetrator. It's more a defacement and obstrution to those with actual power then anything that transfers power from one to the other.

[Sah291]

Ummm, rulers don't have to have power or devotion be given to them willingly. They can simply take power or demand devotion by force.

Yes. But no individual or small elite starts off with that kind of power, when they are far outnumbered by those who would oppose them. People acquiesce their power to others because they want to, they think they need to, or they believe they have no choice.

More importantly that's not how Solas said it happened with the Evanuris. The fact that they were mages did not make them particularly special, in a society where magic was common. Being war heroes did.

So, you promote a new hell on Thedas where new gods are chosen?

Or do you actually believe people wouldn't put their belief in leaders this time?

Probably not. But I would still say it is better for the common people to realize their own power and potential, and to be able to think for themselves, not just to live in fear of needing protection.

Let me ask this then. The Templars are highly resistant to magic and mind control. They closely guard their secrets. Would modern Thedas be better or worse if more people knew how to defend themselves from magical attack? Would it increase or decrease the likelyhood of some blood mage god king causually sweeping to power, the way Corypheus did?

[Lunatica]

can we form a fully informed judgment on their value at this point? No. However, we know enough about Flemeth and Solas to know they wouldn't be so concerned if the Old Gods had no value. We can't determine that value precisely, but we can say they likely have some value that warrants the level of concern from two ancient elven deities.

The Old Gods seem like nothing but trouble, and snuffing them out in their sleep before the darkspawn can get their blighty claws on them seems like as good a plan as any, provided it can actually be done. 

 If there was a way they could forge through the deep roads and successfully kill the old gods before the darkspawn had a chance to corrupt them without slitting each others' throats in crazy blood rituals, I'd probably be pretty on board with that plan, Solas be damned. Now, if he actually spelled out a good reason why this would be bad, then I'd be all ears, but "It could be worse" is insufficient.

[Seraphim24]

 Probably not. But I would still say it is better for the common people to realize their own power and potential, and to be able to think for themselves, not just to live in fear of needing protection.

 

That sentiment is meaningless, arguably dangerous, without the acts to support it. Again, that's the problem with Solas.

 

He or you can spout ideals all day long but to what end? For Solas, the end is clear, advancing everything contrary to those ideas.

[Medhia_Nox]

"Promote" a new hell? Making an observation about people's tendencies is not "promoting" anything of the sort - in fact being aware of people's downfalls or tendencies, instead of blaming it one one specific factor (magic or technology), usually turns out to be a sensible thing with decent results.

 

Like...  we here don't need magic to worship leaders almost like gods or follow their decisions. Hitler didn't gain power through some ancient sorcery - he wouldn't be able to do anything if he didn't have support of the people, at least at a time. Same with Stalin. Or Kim Il-sung. Then it's just the snowball effect - many of those leaders had enough of a grip on their nations to organize entire governments that keep people in check and get rid of those disagreeing with them, while feeding younger generations with myth of divine, infallible or righteous leaders. In a sense then Elvenhan does appear to be an equivalent of North Korea. And we didn't need any magic to create that.

 

Heck, Veiled Thedas also has its share of leaders 'with divine mandate' - the Divine, Emperors, kings and so on. So there's nothing suggesting that they'd avoid mistakes of the past, magic or no. Heck, we explore some of that in Inquisition with Inquisitors themselves ("That's what I do. Fall out of the sky, make bad decisions, and somehow people still follow me.").

 

And why do we even listen to North Korea? 

[Seraphim24]

Let me ask this then. The Templars are highly resistant to magic and mind control. They closely guard their secrets. Would modern Thedas be better or worse if more people knew how to defend themselves from magical attack? Would it increase or decrease the likelyhood of some blood mage god king causually sweeping to power, the way Corpypheus did?

 

Of course it would be better.

[Seraphim24]

Oh what? Tea gets to have a RL analogy and I don't this is wack I'm reporting that.

[Lulupab]

Oh wow you got me, you guys are so ace.

 

He's the simplest person there is, the guy who attempts to use knowledge as a shield against his own excesses and problems, in order to carry out his own personal vendettas.

 

The problem is he is as transparent as glass.

 

Oh really? You must be a genius then, to figure someone out that quickly.

 

All your real life references are rather bogus, I'm sorry to say. Because there is no reference. First of all he hasn't done anything yet, so its very early to judge. We only have a glimpse of his plans. Second of all none of your references is a person who creates a shield between two worlds. The veil is his magic, his property, so he can take it away. But the current world has every right to oppose and fight him. On the other hand its quite likely that veil will automatically disperse if he is killed since many such magics stopped working once the caster died.

 

If current Thedas is meant to be the actual state of the world then they will find a way to defeat Solas and create their own veil, otherwise their culture and way of life will simply be replaced. This is the fact of evolution. That's because the current state of the world is "fake". Thedas in its natural form does not have the veil. If you can't live in it and can't create your own version of the veil then you are not meant to be the dominant culture on it.