4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Oh really? You must be a genius then, to figure someone out that quickly.

 

All your real life references are rather bogus, I'm sorry to say. Because there is no reference. First of all he hasn't done anything yet, so its very early to judge. We only have a glimpse of his plans. Second of all none of your references is a person who creates a shield between two worlds. The veil is his magic, his property, so he can take it away. But the current world has every right to oppose and fight him. On the other hand its quite likely that veil will automatically disperse if he is killed since many such magics stopped working once the caster died.

 

If current Thedas is meant to be the actual state of the world then they will find a way to defeat Solas and create their own veil, otherwise their culture and way of life will simply be replaced. This is the fact of evolution. That's because the current state of the world is "fake". Thedas in its natural form does not have the veil. If you can't live in it and can't create your own version of the veil then you are not meant to be the dominant culture on it.

 

He states his purpose to restore the world of the world that supposedly caused all the current problems. Like, verbatim. He's insane.

 

He should die.

 

No waiting.

 

Ice spike in the forehead from Morrigan, toast.

[Seraphim24]

"Promote" a new hell? Making an observation about people's tendencies is not "promoting" anything of the sort - in fact being aware of people's downfalls or tendencies, instead of blaming it one one specific factor (magic or technology), usually turns out to be a sensible thing with decent results.

 

Like...  we here don't need magic to worship leaders almost like gods or follow their decisions. Hitler didn't gain power through some ancient sorcery - he wouldn't be able to do anything if he didn't have support of the people, at least at a time. Same with Stalin. Or Kim Il-sung. Then it's just the snowball effect - many of those leaders had enough of a grip on their nations to organize entire governments that keep people in check and get rid of those disagreeing with them, while feeding younger generations with myth of divine, infallible or righteous leaders. In a sense then Elvenhan does appear to be an equivalent of North Korea. And we didn't need any magic to create that.

 

Heck, Veiled Thedas also has its share of leaders 'with divine mandate' - the Divine, Emperors, kings and so on. So there's nothing suggesting that they'd avoid mistakes of the past, magic or no. Heck, we explore some of that in Inquisition with Inquisitors themselves ("That's what I do. Fall out of the sky, make bad decisions, and somehow people still follow me.").

 

Well if Tea gets to make a RL point then I do, Hitler had at most like 40 something percent of the vote, the rest he obtained by illegal measures and means, of course, that's after he was literally in prison for a failed power coup. So "support of the people" is at least somewhat tenuous there... though it's true he also did have broad degree of actual popular support.

 

I'm just saying these things are rarely one thing or all the other.

[Medhia_Nox]

Yes. But no individual or small elite starts off with that kind of power, when they are far outnumbered by those who would oppose them. People acquiesce their power to others because they want to, they think they need to, or they believe they have no choice.

More importantly that's not how Solas said it happened with the Evanuris. The fact that they were mages did not make them particularly special, in a society where magic was common. Being war heroes did.

Probably not. But I would still say it is better for the common people to realize their own power and potential, and to be able to think for themselves, not just to live in fear of needing protection.

Let me ask this then. The Templars are highly resistant to magic and mind control. They closely guard their secrets. Would modern Thedas be better or worse if more people knew how to defend themselves from magical attack? Would it increase or decrease the likelyhood of some blood mage god king causually sweeping to power, the way Corpypheus did?

 

So, you're thinking more short term?  Everyone will be equal footing right after the Veil comes down... so: 1,2,3 go?

 

Here's a theory.  People are not equal on modern Thedas.  The same power that made the Evanuris... created the spirit that was Divine Justinia in the fade.  The same power that made the Evanuris was what Corypheus required in Divine Justinia to activate a device that is a conduit to the elven gods. 

 

The same power exists... it's just diluted and diffused and cannot produce the same damaging results the Evanuris did by doing things like:  "Throwing the sun into the earth."  for while perhaps Elgar'nan did not throw the actual sun into the earth... some clearly devastating catastrophe caused the myth to form.

 

Has it never occurred to anyone that Solas wants the power to gain more power the way the Evanuris did... by being the only elven god left to worship?  I mean... he "cares" about the elves more than anyone.  Who better to lead the new elves to a great new age?  The guy who cares deeply about them and wants to take care of them.  And... well... why shouldn't they look to him, put their faith in him?  

 

NOTE: This lie that he's doing this for the betterment of everyone is silly.  He's doing it for his ancient people.

 

None of that requires Solas to even believe he's following the path of a megalomaniac.  He could actually believe he cares.  That - to me - would be a complex Solas.  

 

At any rate... I think we might have a very different opinion on what enlightenment entails.  

 

You don't need magic to discover your self-worth.

 

You need magic to enforce it in the world Solas wants to build. 

[Lulupab]

He states his purpose to restore the world of the world that supposedly caused all the current problems. Like, verbatim. He's insane.

 

He should die.

 

Oh look, you didn't even acknowledge the points I tried to make. Not that I expected it from someone who says Solas is simple and transparent.

[Seraphim24]

Oh really? You must be a genius then, to figure someone out that quickly.

 

All your real life references are rather bogus, I'm sorry to say. Because there is no reference. First of all he hasn't done anything yet, so its very early to judge. We only have a glimpse of his plans.

 

Pre-meditated murder then and remember he was part of the Evanuris, he already perpetuated numerous excesses, he just wants to do so again.

 

 

 

If current Thedas is meant to be the actual state of the world then they will find a way to defeat Solas and create their own veil, otherwise their culture and way of life will simply be replaced. This is the fact of evolution. That's because the current state of the world is "fake". Thedas in its natural form does not have the veil. If you can't live in it and can't create your own version of the veil then you are not meant to be the dominant culture on it.

 

The veil is just magic, it's not his or any other kind of magic, magic of that magnitude can exist, has existed, and could exist from other sources.

 

Thedas is not the natural state by his own admission, it was composed of magic and one in the same world.

 

All of the rest you say is true, Solas apparently can't live in the original world so he will be eliminated by evolution.

[midnight tea]

And why do we even listen to North Korea? 

 

"Listen" as in 'let them exist in modern world without interfering much into their internal affairs' or something?

 

Obviously because of everything I've written. Because the nation has relinquished its power into the hands of one who organized government to keep themselves in power and gain weapons that scares away those who question it.

 

And again, I'd like to point out - they didn't need any ancient sorcery to do so.

[Sah291]

That sentiment is meaningless, arguably dangerous, without the acts to support it. Again, that's the problem with Solas.
 
He or you can spout ideals all day long but to what end? For Solas, the end is clear, advancing everything contrary to those ideas.

People thinking for themselves is dangerous?

Maybe, but societies that stray too far in the other direction have a tendency to be oppressive and controlling, and I wouldn't call that particularly safe either.

[Seraphim24]

People thinking for themselves is dangerous?

 

Not what I said.

[Medhia_Nox]

"Listen" as in 'let them exist in modern world without interfering much into their internal affairs' or something?

 

Obviously because of everything I've written. Because the nation has relinquished its power into the hands of one who organized government to keep themselves in power and gain weapons that scares away those who question it.

 

And again, I'd like to point out - they didn't need any ancient sorcery to do so.

 

It's because they (North Korea) have nukes. 

 

They have the power to be heard... a power on the level of the insane crap the Evanuris could do.

 

Solas accidentally disarmed Thedas' nuclear arsenal... and you want to bring it back.  Likely because you can imagine uber-powerful mages making unicorns that poo rainbows... and fields of lolipops... and not tyranny and mass destruction.

 

And your reasoning seems to be:  "Well, people can still stab each other with knives."

[Sah291]

So, you're thinking more short term? Everyone will be equal footing right after the Veil comes down... so: 1,2,3 go?

Here's a theory. People are not equal on modern Thedas. The same power that made the Evanuris... created the spirit that was Divine Justinia in the fade. The same power that made the Evanuris was what Corypheus required in Divine Justinia to activate a device that is a conduit to the elven gods.

The same power exists... it's just diluted and diffused and cannot produce the same damaging results the Evanuris did by doing things like: "Throwing the sun into the earth." for while perhaps Elgar'nan did not throw the actual sun into the earth... some clearly devastating catastrophe caused the myth to form.

Has it never occurred to anyone that Solas wants the power to gain more power the way the Evanuris did... by being the only elven god left to worship? I mean... he "cares" about the elves more than anyone. Who better to lead the new elves to a great new age? The guy who cares deeply about them and wants to take care of them. And... well... why shouldn't they look to him, put their faith in him?

NOTE: This lie that he's doing this for the betterment of everyone is silly. He's doing it for his ancient people.

None of that requires Solas to even believe he's following the path of a megalomaniac. He could actually believe he cares. That - to me - would be a complex Solas.

At any rate... I think we might have a very different opinion on what enlightenment entails.

You don't need magic to discover your self-worth.

You need magic to enforce it in the world Solas wants to build.

No I don't think the world would be perfect or everyone would suddenly be equal or happy.

I also didn't say magic was necessary to understand your self worth. I was speaking more broadly about any kind of knowledge or enlightenment. You may take for granted now your ability to pick up a science book (for example) to better understand yourself or the world, but what if that kind of knowledge was illegal or forbidden? What if books on the subject were being collected and burned because they were feared, or because someone considered it a threat to their power?

[Sah291]

Not what I said.

Then could you explain what you mean?

[Seraphim24]

Then could you explain what you mean?

 

I really don't know how it could be any more clear to be honest....

 

Saying "I believe in everyone's rights to think for themselves!" is completely consistent with destroying places where people express themselves and murdering everyone who does think for themselves.

 

The two do not have to coincide.

 

You just need to add another statement

 

"And I believe I have the right to attempt to kill and rape and murder anyone I want for any reason I come up with."

[Sah291]

It's because they (North Korea) have nukes. 
 
They have the power to be heard... a power on the level of the insane crap the Evanuris could do.
 
Solas accidentally disarmed Thedas' nuclear arsenal... and you want to bring it back.  Likely because you can imagine uber-powerful mages making unicorns that poo rainbows... and fields of lolipops... and not tyranny and mass destruction.
 
And your reasoning seems to be:  "Well, people can still stab each other with knives."

I don't know how we got from magic to nuclear arsenals. But this is a good point, in that it was probably war destroying ancient Thedas. And that it was likely war Solas was trying to stop with the Veil, since it is war he complains about when he speaks about the Evanuris. War perverted the use of their magic, maybe, just as it can pervert the use of technology into tools of mass destruction.

[Sah291]

I really don't know how it could be any more clear to be honest....

Saying "I believe in everyone's rights to think for themselves!" is completely consistent with destroying places where people express themselves and murdering everyone who does think for themselves.

The two do not have to coincide.

You just need to add another statement

"And I believe I have the right to attempt to kill and rape and murder anyone I want for any reason I come up with."

Oh well, I guess I misunderstood because I didn't say that and I don't believe people have the right to kill, rape, murder whoever they want for whatever reason. I'm not sure what that has to do with thinking for yourself though. It's possible to both think for yourself and respect the right of others to do so as well - which would be antithetical to raping and killing them.

[Seraphim24]

Oh well, I guess I misunderstood because I didn't say that and I don't believe people have the right to kill, rape, murder whoever they want for whatever reason. I'm not sure what that has to do with thinking for yourself though. It's possible to both think for yourself and respect the right of others to do so as well - which would be antithetical to raping and killing them.

 

You can't just "respect the right of others to do so as well" you have to actually show that by actions for it to have meaning.

 

If we could just talk our way out of all our problems we wouldn't have any problems.

 

Solas has proven incapable of showing anything, quite the opposite... in fact.

[Sah291]

You can't just "respect the right of others to do so as well" you have to actually show that by actions for it to have meaning.
 
If we could just talk our way out of all our problems we wouldn't have any problems.
 
Solas has proven incapable of showing anything, quite the opposite... in fact.

Agreed, respect is reciprocal.

I do think Solas has gone off the deep end, though, and fighting him in this case would be justified for the Inquisitor, as he is the aggressor in this situation. He is not putting himself in a position to compromise or work out an alternative, and won't even share his plan.

[Seraphim24]

Agreed, respect is reciprocal.

 

Hm... still not really what I said...

[midnight tea]

It's because they (North Korea) have nukes. 

 

They have the power to be heard... a power on the level of the insane crap the Evanuris could do.

 

Solas accidentally disarmed Thedas' nuclear arsenal... and you want to bring it back.  Likely because you can imagine uber-powerful mages making unicorns that poo rainbows... and fields of lolipops... and not tyranny and mass destruction.

 

And your reasoning seems to be:  "Well, people can still stab each other with knives."

 

*sigh* It's like you're not reading what was written to you at all... 

 

Yes, and again, I'd like to point out that they didn't need any ancient sorcery to do that, nor it was something procured just by sheer power of one individual - merely one who was given power by society/nation.

 

And no, Solas didn't just "accidentally disarm Thedas" - in an attempt to prevent the worst from happening, it's more akin to him permanently switching electricity off and getting rid of humanity's sources of fuel to power most of our technology. Globally. So yeah, no more nukes... and no more easy ways to transport, store knowledge, produce goods and necessities; no more modern hospitals and medicine and no more means to feed the masses. You may laugh and keep misrepresenting my or others' argument as "unicorns that poo rainbows" and any of that 'utopia' crap, but without modern infrastructure it's back to Dark Ages or worse, together with everything that comes with it.

 

Basically what you're advocating is throwing the baby out with the bath water. To say that this is counterproductive and silly is an understatement. ESPECIALLY that you kept going on and on about how magic was bad... and now this has transformed basically into technology/modern society is apparently bad, because modern/technologically advanced civilization naturally reaches point when it becomes a threat to itself on a world-wide scale. It's inevitable, magic or no magic.

 

And instead of giving realistic solution to that - dispersing power, educating society, having sensible limitations and so on that we are trying to figure out now - you pretty much seem think that "disarming" society and preventing its advancement is actually a realistic solution.

[midnight tea]

No I don't think the world would be perfect or everyone would suddenly be equal or happy.

I also didn't say magic was necessary to understand your self worth. I was speaking more broadly about any kind of knowledge or enlightenment. You may take for granted now your ability to pick up a science book (for example) to better understand yourself or the world, but what if that kind of knowledge was illegal or forbidden? What if books on the subject were being collected and burned because they were feared, or because someone considered it a threat to their power?

 

Well we know that such times existed in the world and we know how much they sucked...

[Seraphim24]

*sigh* It's like your'e not reading what was written to you at all... 

 

Yes, and again, I'd like to point out that they didn't need any ancient sorcery to do that, nor it was something procured just by sheer power of one individual - merely one who was given power by society/nation.

 

And no, Solas didn't just "accidentally disarmed Thedas" - in an attempt to prevent the worst from happening, it's more akin to permanently switching electricity off and getting rid of humanity's sources of fuel. Globally. So yeah, no more nukes... and no more easy ways to transport, storing knowledge, producing goods and necessities, no more modern hospitals and medicine and no more means to feed the masses. You may laugh and keep misrepresenting my or others' argument as "unicorns that poo rainbows" and any of that 'utopia' crap, but without modern infrastructure its' back to Middle Ages or worse, together with everything that comes with it.

 

Basically what you're advocating is throwing the baby with the bath water. To say that this is counterproductive and silly is an understatement. ESPECIALLY that you kept going on and on about how magic was bad... and now this transformed into technology/modern society is apparently bad, because modern/technologically advanced civilization naturally reaches point when it becomes a threat to itself on a world-wide scale. It's inevitable.

 

And instead of giving realistic solution to that - dispersing power, educating society, having sensible limitations and so on that we are trying to figure out now - you basically think that "disarming" society and preventing its advancement is actually a realistic solution.

 

Pretty much all of Modern Thedas was built on previous advances, Tevinter, Evanuris, all we know about magic and it's manipulations, systems structures, society.

 

But according to Solas 1. That was impure and a consequence of the veil and 2. that precluded an earlier, ill-defined existence where magic and the entire world were one.

 

So really, what we think of as the enlightened "history of Thedas" is in reality a shortchanging of a previously unknown history, where magic and reality were one, i.e. much more advanced, but guess what, Solas was one of the instigators of that modern situation.

[Seraphim24]

Well we know that such times existed in the world and we know how much they sucked...

 

You mean like the current?

 

Before the typical tea response (sorry but it does rhyme) I mean no not books, and no, not burned, but yes past histories, achievements, stories, narratives, are continually being obscured and blurred to fit different agendas just like it's 1 CE all over again...

[Abyss108]

This thread has become a depressing reminder of how right Solas was when he said "those you fight must become monsters"... 

[Seraphim24]

This thread has become a depressing reminder of how right Solas was when he said "those you fight must become monsters"... 

 

Because he was speaking for himself? I agree.

 

Glad we finally agree on something

[Abyss108]

Because he was speaking for himself? I agree.

 

Glad we finally agree on something

 

 

That is a perfect example, though I think you may have misunderstood the quote... 

[Seraphim24]

That is a perfect example, though I think you may have misunderstood the quote... 

 

Well I think  my point was that you may have misunderstood the quote....

 

Especially the gerneralist "the mind does marvelous things to protect itself."