4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

That's a possibility, though Solas probably has a plan for spirits and demons since he considers them people. I think there's also an epilogue panel in Trespasser about spirit-Cole returning to the Fade talking about aiding with suffering in the Fade. 

"Cole returned to the Fade, saying that there was more pain coming, and that he knew where compassion was most needed. He promised that his friends in the Inquisition would remember him... and that where the hurt was greatest, he would help."

 

And lol, cause all of Solas's plans have worked flawlessly so far.

[Hellion Rex]

Well we'll just agree to disagree then, 

 

That's fair. This stuff is all nebulous as hell, so it can be very, very, very murky.

[Lulupab]

I disagree that demons are a product of the Veil. The Veil might act as a buffer, but spirits can surely be turned from their purpose by anybody, regardless of the Veil's presence or not. I highly doubt that malevolent spirits didn't exist in the pre-Veil world.

 

That doesn't mean the veil increased frequency of this so called perversion from spirit to demon significantly, because it did. With no veil, the fade entities didn't need "anybody" at all, least of all having any role in their turning. So back then they were not turned from their purpose by anybody except themselves because they had more clear personalities, the imprisonment and curiosity drove some of them mad and lustful.

[Lulupab]

Right back at you. 

 

Glad to know you didn't acknowledge the fact that Demons are not robots programmed to exterminate ALL life. 

 

You know, unlike certain filthy beings.

[Hellion Rex]

That doesn't mean the veil increased frequency of this so called perversion from spirit to demon significantly, because it did. With no veil, the fade entities didn't need "anybody" at all, least of all having any role in their turning. So back then they were not turned from their purpose by anybody except themselves because they had more clear personalities, the imprisonment and curiosity drove some of them mad and lustful.

Maybe, but you have no evidence to back up your words whatsoever about the pre-Veil world, whatsoever. None of us do. It's all conjecture and supposition right now.

[Almostfaceman]

"Cole returned to the Fade, saying that there was more pain coming, and that he knew where compassion was most needed. He promised that his friends in the Inquisition would remember him... and that where the hurt was greatest, he would help."

 

And lol, cause all of Solas's plans have worked flawlessly so far.

 

Yeah, that's what I remember. A lowering of the Veil would require a lot of compassion for spirits, demons, elves, mages, etc. Makes sense. 

 

Heh, I don't think anybody's plans work flawlessly. 

[Hellion Rex]

Glad to know you didn't acknowledge the fact that Demons are not robots programmed to exterminate ALL life. 

Never said they were, anywhere. 

You are reaching pretty hard there.

 

My only point was to say that dwarves are certainly not immune to the destruction of the Veil and what it would entail. You saw what happened to spirits near rifts, how they were driven mad by the instability caused by the Breach. A lot of spirits would probably go nuts if the Veil in it's entirety was destroyed, and last I checked dwarves can still be ripped in half by terror demons.

[Lulupab]

Maybe, but you have no evidence to back up your words whatsoever about the pre-Veil world, whatsoever. None of us do. It's all conjecture and supposition right now.

 

A very good supposition though. One thing we know is there were less problems with fade and demons with there was no veil. They lived in harmony with the fade. So increase in demons numbers and existence of veil simply calls for it. Not to mention there are mentions of this already, you can doubt them all you like. But the evidence that the veil affected spirits negative far outweighs the opposite argument.

[Hellion Rex]

Yeah, that's what I remember. A lowering of the Veil would require a lot of compassion for spirits, demons, elves, mages, etc. Makes sense. 

 

Heh, I don't think anybody's plans work flawlessly. 

Oh I know, it just feels like everytime we asked Solas about what was coming, he was like "I have a plan!" 

[Hellion Rex]

A very good supposition though. One thing we know is there were less problems with fade and demons with there was no veil. They lived in harmony with the fade. So increase in demons numbers and existence of veil simply calls for it. Not to mention there are mentions of this already, you can doubt them all you like. But the evidence that the veil affected spirits negative far outweighs the opposite argument.

Less problems with the Fade...maybe I could buy that. Demons though, no. Again, that bit about less demons in the pre-Veil world is entirely supposition. You have no proof whatsoever. Only theory.

[Xerrai]

Well we'll just agree to disagree then, there's a lot said by Solas and Cole on the matter and the Veil definitely has a strong role with the distortion between real people and spirits and this distortion creates a lot of problems that result in demons.

I certainly agree that the veil is a contributing factor, but I do not think its contribution is as direct as you imply. There may even be a correlation. But as many will remind you, correlation does not mean causation.

From what we can tell, mortals themselves are one of the main creators of demons. Thier hate, thier sorrow, the pain brought onto others by injustices or inadequecies in thier societies, etc.

Unless a world without the veil comes with more altruism, understanding and compassion (basically near utopia) I see no reason to believe it will all go away once the veil is down.

People will still be horrible to each other regardless of the state of magic in the world.

[Lulupab]

Never said they were, anywhere. 

You are reaching pretty hard there.

 

My only point was to say that dwarves are certainly not immune to the destruction of the Veil and what it would entail. You saw what happened to spirits near rifts, how they were driven made by the instability cause by the Breach. A lot of spirits would probably go nuts if the Veil in it's entirety was destroyed, and last I checked dwarves can still be ripped in half by terror demons.

 

I said blight is a bigger a threat, and I stand by that. Because its goal is destruction of Thedas. We also saw how Grey Wardens were absolutely powerless when someone utilized blight properly against them. Grey wardens are the world's first and only defense against the blight.

 

Its very hard to believe that somehow demons are going to unite under same goal (VERY UNLIKELY), least of all this goal being destruction of all Thedas for no reason but sake of destruction alone. Not to mention starting going underground to kill dwarves when there will be plenty of prey quite easier to reach. I just want you to acknowledge demons will be unorganized mess who will fight each other, roam for no reason, and randomly attack anywhere close. They can be contained a lot easier than blight if the world is prepared, which I believe they will be since the Inquisitor warned everyone about Solas.

[Lulupab]

Less problems with the Fade...maybe I could buy that. Demons though, no. Again, that bit about less demons in the pre-Veil world is entirely supposition. You have no proof whatsoever. Only theory.

 

What other "problems" are there with the fade? Take the demons out and its a heaven. So when we know elves had far less problems with the fade, that literally translates into less problems with demons.

[Hellion Rex]

I certainly agree that the veil is a contributing factor, but I do not think its contribution is as direct as you imply. There may even be a correlation. But as many will remind you, correlation does not mean causation.

From what we can tell, mortals themselves are one of the main creators of demons. Thier hate, thier sorrow, the pain brought onto others by injustices or inadequecies in thier societies, etc.

Unless a world without the veil comes with more altruism, understanding and compassion (basically near utopia) I see no reason to believe it will all go away once the veil is down.

People will still be horrible to each other regardless of the state of magic in the world.

^^^ That's what I was aiming for. Xerrai said it much better than me lol.

[Almostfaceman]

I certainly agree that the veil is a contributing factor, but I do not think its contribution is as direct as you imply. There may even be a correlation. But as many will remind you, correlation does not mean causation.

From what we can tell, mortals themselves are one of the main creators of demons. Thier hate, thier sorrow, the pain brought onto others by injustices or inadequecies in thier societies, etc.

Unless a world without the veil comes with more altruism, understanding and compassion (basically near utopia) I see no reason to believe it will all go away once the veil is down.

People will still be horrible to each other regardless of the state of magic in the world.

 

Well yes, mortals themselves, as they perceive the world through the Veil. Solas says as much... starting at 1:22.

 

"Not in the world we know today. The Veil creates a barrier that makes true understanding most unlikely." 

 

[Lulupab]

I certainly agree that the veil is a contributing factor, but I do not think its contribution is as direct as you imply. There may even be a correlation. But as many will remind you, correlation does not mean causation.

From what we can tell, mortals themselves are one of the main creators of demons. Thier hate, thier sorrow, the pain brought onto others by injustices or inadequecies in thier societies, etc.

Unless a world without the veil comes with more altruism, understanding and compassion (basically near utopia) I see no reason to believe it will all go away once the veil is down.

People will still be horrible to each other regardless of the state of magic in the world.

 

But with the veil they have no idea how the people of Thedas live and do things. For example they can't know that Justice cannot exist in pure forms because the world is too grey for that. For a while Cole thought death was compassion, again a misunderstanding due to ignorance.

 

Edit: Almostfaceman posted it, there is no understanding between mortals and fade entities. They have personalities and can understand the fundamentals of waking world, but they cannot, thanks to the veil. For example the Justice we meet thinks Templars must be punished because imprisoning others = punishment. He never understood the reason of Templar's action because he was disconnected from waking world all his life, and it was probably a very long life.

[Xerrai]

But with the veil they have no idea how the people of Thedas live and do things. For example they can't know that Justice cannot exist in pure forms because the world is too grey for that. For a while Cole thought death was compassion, again a misunderstanding due to ignorance.

Edit: Almostfaceman posted it, there is no understanding between mortals and fade entities. They have personalities and can understand the fundamentals of waking world, but they cannot, thanks to the veil. For example the Justice we meet thinks Templars must be punished because imprisoning others = punishment. He never understood the reason of Templar's action because he was disconnected from waking world all his life, and it was probably a very long life.

I do not deny that a lack of understanding is a major proponent (if not THE major proponent) I just think the veil itself is not the only main issue.

For all that the veil may hamper understanding both sides, mortals can corrupt spirits rather easily just by virtue of thier own vices. Because mortals themselves may not all be predisposed to understanding certain things.

If removing the veil is the keystone for mortals to better understand magic so it can better serve them (as opposed to letting thier fear of magic rule over them) then yes, demons in general may decrease. But in the end spirits are like mirrors--they reflect what they see in mortals. Unless mortals themselves overcome thier vices, demons (I believe) will always exist.

These mortal vices will not just up and disappeared once the veil is down.

[Sah291]

I certainly agree that the veil is a contributing factor, but I do not think its contribution is as direct as you imply. There may even be a correlation. But as many will remind you, correlation does not mean causation.
From what we can tell, mortals themselves are one of the main creators of demons. Thier hate, thier sorrow, the pain brought onto others by injustices or inadequecies in thier societies, etc.
Unless a world without the veil comes with more altruism, understanding and compassion (basically near utopia) I see no reason to believe it will all go away once the veil is down.
People will still be horrible to each other regardless of the state of magic in the world.

Well I think maybe it's like the Jungian idea of the shadow self. Demons accumulate there, and they want to breach the Veil. Like stuffing the darkspawn underground. You can bury or veil something for so long before it bubbles to the surface.

So I think it's not that there would be more altruism. They still had conflict pre Veil. But that demons aren't accumulating somewhere, forgotten and angry.

[Almostfaceman]

I do not deny that a lack of understanding is a major proponent (if not THE major proponent) I just think the veil itself is not the only main issue.

For all that the veil may hamper understanding both sides, mortals can corrupt spirits rather easily just by virtue of thier own vices. Because mortals themselves may not all be predisposed to understanding certain things.

If removing the veil is the keystone for mortals to better understand magic so it can better serve them (as opposed to letting thier fear of magic rule over them) then yes, demons in general may decrease. But in the end spirits are like mirrors--they reflect what they see in mortals. Unless mortals themselves overcome thier vices, demons (I believe) will always exist.

These mortal vices will not just up and disappeared once the veil is down.

 

No, the vices won't disappear, but how those vices affect spirits will probably change. Solas says the capability to co-exist with spirits once the Veil is down increases dramatically. It has to. For example, in Trespasser, there's evidence of a spirit holding a lecture for elves. Now we know that elves had and have vices, so how could a spirit handle the vices of all these living beings in such close proximity and... not only that... but interact and teach? Because the relationship potential changes without the distortion that is the Veil. 

 

Just my two cents. 

[Lunatica]

 

 

Also - not sure what is "typical tea response"   (and how on Earth is that supposed to rhyme....)

 

 

 

*sigh* It's like your'e not reading what was written to you at all... 

 

 

...Care to read the entirety of my comment?

 

 

 

Have you actually read anything that was discussed here? In fact did you even read the rest of the comment you've quoted?

 

It doesn't appear you did. 

 

 

 

You obviously haven't been reading what was written to you, or generally on this thread  

 

 

 

Er, so you basically accuse me of reading things wrong... without reading what I actually said

 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

can we form a fully informed judgment on their value at this point? No. However, we know enough about Flemeth and Solas to know they wouldn't be so concerned if the Old Gods had no value. We can't determine that value precisely, but we can say they likely have some value that warrants the level of concern from two ancient elven deities.

 

I am aware that they imply they don't want it, but do they say anything that implies there will be worse consequences than an ancient being of magic being permanently destroyed? Because that alone seems to be, under the belief system Flemeth taught Morrigan, a serious problem. In fact, Morrigan represents killing old gods as a bad thing because they are powerfully magical beings, and if I remember correctly she says that this is true regardless of how dangerous they are. And one can imagine she learned this worldview from Flemeth. I'm willing to agree with them that the Old Gods should be preserved, if and only if they tell me their rationale and give a better one than "magic should be preserved regardless of the danger.I don't know that any of them can be trusted to want to preserve the Old Gods for the reason of preventing bad things from happening, when in each of their cases we have reason to believe that they want to preserve and encourage magic whether or not bad things happen as a result of it.

[Aren]

See, this is why humanity scares me. People can look at the exact same thing and get completely different things from it.

 

 

My post wasn't specular to the one of @LadyArtifice in fact i did pointed out that Archdemons are not old gods and the whole argument started when someone implied that Solas said that killing archdemon could made thing worse when he referenced only to the old gods not yet corrupted in the context of the GW plan.

[midnight tea]

 

 

LOL, all of this is evidence how often some people don't read what I am actually writing to them - which is perfectly demonstrable if you read comments I address

 

So yea - thank you for listing how much I have to deal with how much of my stuff is either misread, not read or misrepresented, *Especially* that I point out that someone obviously didn't read my comments only after it happens numerous times. 

 

Even more hilarious that a person who tells me I have "typical responses" oftentimes freely admits that they don't read stuff...

[Seraphim24]

LOL, all of this is evidence how often some people don't read what I am actually writing to them - which is perfectly demonstrable if you read comments I address

 

So yea - thank you for listing how much I have to deal with how much of my stuff is either misread, not read or misrepresented, *especially* that I point out that someone obviously didn't read my thing only after it happens numerous times. 

 

Even more hilarious that a person who tells me I have "typical responses" oftentimes freely admits that they don't read stuff...

 

There are some comments I make where I pretty much 100% expect the response to be negative to it, I don't make those comments for other people's approval per se. A lot of the time I just know and can see things plain as day and have to record that fact somewhere...

 

So yeah, I sometimes anticipatorialy, skip those.... I essentially always back later and read them though after I expect the emotion to have dissipated.

 

If I'm quoting and responding to someone though I most certainly read it.

 

You know to be honest that "typical tea" was almost like in jest to be silly and lighten the mood but I thought it might be taken the wrong way... and here we are....

 

I mean really everyone has a style here.

 

German, Aren, Rare, and Lunatica all make these insightful cutting comments and upsets people's perfectly formed ideas and that makes them lash out.

 

Faceman posts gifs to everything.

 

Tea just winds up with this WHY I OUGHTA- before basically just making a plain point.

 

Sah tries to make peace by offering gentle and delicate idealistic banter, without really directly engaging or supporting anything in particular although seeming to evidence a modest distaste for anti-Solas.

 

Lynroy and Macha are exclusively devoted to just throwing tomatos.

 

Bayonet offers a sly reasoned analysis.

 

Medhia offers introverted emotional striking darts.

 

Abyss doesn't deny the evil in Solas but is kind of ok with it anyway.

 

Etc.

[Seraphim24]

So based on that we should ship

 

Tea and German

Faceman and himself

Bayonet and Sah

Lynroy and Macha

Abyss and Medhia

 

Um feel free to chime in rest of all.