4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Illyria]

I think this is pure nonsense especially point number two

 

 

That's nice, dear.

[mrs_anomaly]

I think this is pure nonsense especially point number two

How is that nonsense? That is paraphrasing precisely what Solas explains to us in Trespasser about why he gave Cory the orb. Are you just saying that his motivation was dubious or that this isn't the truth?

[Addictress]

"Are you trying to define reality?"

*lololol

[SkinVision]

I've always been a sucker for the handsome intellectual though: Patrick Stewart as Captain Picard, Carl Sagan, young Richard Dawkins before he turned into a blathering jerk. I thought bald tortured Zathrian from Origins was cute as well and I really liked the bald doctor that we talked with at the hospital in ME3. I dunno, some bald guys are really cute for some reason.
 

 

I feel you. I always gush over dead philosopher's. It creeps people out But really who could resist Ludwig Wittgenstein...

 

Speaking of dead philosophers I think this thread needs an image of history's most famous egg-headed theorist, Michel Foucault.

 

[maia0407]

I feel you. I always gush over dead philosopher's. It creeps people But really who could resist Ludwig Wittgenstein...
 
Speaking of dead philosophers I think this thread needs an image of historie's most famous egg-headed theorist, Michel Foucault.
 

Mmm, bald, smart! Comere you! Lol

[German Soldier]

I don't particularly like the character and i think that he is really dangerous.

He can be the most complex character out there but still he is a living danger since he has the resources,the knowledge and will to do what he want and since there were already victims for his actions i think he is not  trustworthy enough to deserve   a second chance.

I would like to seal the last two Evanuris (Mythal and Solas even if i don't know if i can consider him as such) away  in the fade and force them to remain there for some years to think.

[midnight tea]

 

I don't particularly like the character and i think that he is really dangerous.

He can be the most complex character out there but still he is a living danger since he has the resources,the knowledge and will to do what he want and since there were already victims for his actions i think he is not  trustworthy enough to deserve   a second chance.

I would like to seal the last two Evanuris (Mythal and Solas even if i don't know if i can consider him as such) away  in the fade and force them to remain there for some years to think.

 

 

Considering that Solas spent millenia "locked" in the Fade I don't think this approach will work at all.

[midnight tea]

I'm arousing in curiosity  while holding and catching my attention on one of the most infamous stigma often cast on the internet "black & white"  anthem of  disdain.

I have to proof nothing on the internet about my own sensitivity,therefore  thy patronizing judgments are wrapped by my aloofness. 

 

...So you say in overly-flowery, patronizing tone   So much for "aloofness".

 

You know, if you don't want to get hit by "black-and-white stigma", don't make statements that sound explicitly black-and-white.

 

Are you trying to define  reality?

Whatever meaning it has for you it applies only for you,mind you this is not the  " black & white" stigma just point out that you can't define meaning.

I'm quite sure that i never had the chance to speak with the Evanuris to understand what they were doing when Solas erected the veil,nor Mythal and Fen'Harel are entitled to any credibility on the matter since they are mostly pushing their own perspective.

 

What I'm trying to have here is a coherent discussion. I'm not entirely sure you're interested with that, seeing that you prefer to address strawmen rather than my actual points. We're not really going to get anywhere if you start throwing non-sequiturs like 'are you trying to define reality?' or "you can't define meaning".

 

And FYI yes - for the sake of discussion we have to at least attempt to try and define things to have a similar frame of reference to... you know... actually be able to discuss things! Otherwise any dialogue, here or anywhere else, would be pointless.

 

Also - whether you choose to believe Solas or Flemeth or not doesn't change the fact that him creating the Veil wasn't just a random idea he had the other day, but what he believed was a way of preventing Evanuris of doing something terrible after they've killed Mythal. Whether you believe him or not, you can't claim that Solas had created the Veil because he really wanted it or something; it was a last ditch effort to save the world, not some sort of pet project he thought would improve it and was fully aware - or accepting - of consequences it had for the world.

 

As i recall i made an argumentative point about the Somnaborium and its inherent characteristics of being a magical bomb upon activation and how Solas while perfectly aware of everything gave that to Sethius Amladaris to premeditatively kill him and all the potential casualties that would have occurred.

Are you trying to imply that Solas doesn't know how his own Orb operate?This is what i would define as arguing for the sake of arguing,clutching at straws.

 

Oy, hon, you're all over the place. Your previous point about Somnaborium was that Solas "lost it in most naive way possible" and now you seem to be trying to argue something else - that it was a fully premeditated act that was supposed to kill people.

 

Like... you see the dissonance here? We're going farther and farther away from original point.

 

Also - if you're going as far as strawmanning me into "trying to imply that Solas doesn't know how the orb operates" (which I most obviously did not) you can't then claim that it's I that am grasping at straws here. 

 

Fascinating so now you are admitting that he may had knew the consequences but he was doing it to kill the evil venatori so that he could have destroyed the world later in peace.How ironic is really Corypheus the bad guy here?

 

What do you mean "admitting"? Nobody here denies that Solas giving the orb to Corypheus was a mistake born out of Solas' conviction that Cory will die if he manages to unlock the orb; what was argued here was that this wasn't as "naive" course of action as you think it is.

 

The plan itself wasn't bad at all (even if it would have had ended for the world pretty badly) - it's the unforeseeable events or factors (Corypheus' immortality, Inquisitor disrupting the ritual and surviving) that resulted with unforeseen consequences, which included the destruction of the Conclave and creation of the Breach. Same way the Qunari plan in Trespasser was pretty bold and brilliant, but - ironically - it was undone by the Inquisition being so infiltrated by spies the Qunari people tripped over Solas' people, who then effectively saved the South, including the Inquisition.

 

So yeah - the irony is actually noticed and extremely appreciated. I love the fact that half-mad Corypheus was an unwitting savior of the world from an old, lost hero (who could be argued is even close to Chantry''s Maker) who can possibly be redeemed. But that's sort of the point of the story in DA - how weird, oftentimes ironic, twists of fate nobody can really predict can wildly change the outcome. How not everything is obvious and how much hides in vast grey areas. Taking that into account, as well as the fact that Solas is trying to achieve the near-impossible while having odds stacked against him, meaning that he can't predict absolutely everything, no matter how well he thought things out, shreds your claims that everything he's done, or is still doing, is with absolute full certainty, or even with malicious intents.

 

That is simply not true - Solas is struggling with doubt and insecurity. At this moment in the story, especially if Inquisitor is befriended or romanced, he reached the point where he tries to make the last push to save what he thinks is important, but he's not perfectly certain of results, or if what he tries to accomplish really demands as big of sacrifices as he thinks must be made. He says that the world "may die", he says that "with luck some of the past may yet survive" and then he tells to (befriended Inky who vows to prove to him that he doesn't have to destroy this world) that he will treasure a chance to be wrong again. 

[Illyria]

 

I don't particularly like the character and i think that he is really dangerous.

He can be the most complex character out there but still he is a living danger since he has the resources,the knowledge and will to do what he want and since there were already victims for his actions i think he is not  trustworthy enough to deserve   a second chance.

I would like to seal the last two Evanuris (Mythal and Solas even if i don't know if i can consider him as such) away  in the fade and force them to remain there for some years to think.

 

 

Locking Solas in the Fade is kind of like locking a bibliophile in a library.

 

And he's already spent thousands of years in there, and all his friends are there.

[dawnstone]

Locking Solas in the Fade is kind of like locking a bibliophile in a library.

 

And he's already spent thousands of years in there, and all his friends are there.

Not just that, but aren't there multiple fables about how he always gets out of difficult situations somehow? Like Andruil and the Tree(distracts then chews through the ropes), and the Courser and the Wolf(bites off his tail), and The Slow Arrow(shoots an arrow, sacrifices half the people, but saves the other half when it comes down)? Even Cole said "The wolf chews off it's leg to escape the trap." I speculate that Solas probably had to give up something big to trap the Evanuris, because he was probably in the trap with them at the time he sprung it. 

[lynroy]

Locking Solas in the Fade is kind of like locking a bibliophile in a library.

And he's already spent thousands of years in there, and all his friends are there.

Best punishment ever!

[German Soldier]

Considering that Solas spent millenia "locked" in the Fade I don't think this approach will work at all.

 

@Ilyria

 

Solas wasn't locked he was just sleeping there and he didn't had any contact with the people of thedas,now that he had he can remain in the fade to think about those experiences for some years.

it is not a way to lock him there since he cannot be locked.

[Illyria]

@Ilyria

 

Solas wasn't locked he was just sleeping there and he didn't had any contact with the people of thedas,now that he had he can remain in the fade to think about those experiences for some years.

it is not a way to lock him there since he cannot be locked.

 

That's exactly what I said.  The man loves the Fade.  He spends as much time as he can dreaming, and all his friends are spirits.  It's not a punishment - it's a holiday.

[German Soldier]

That's exactly what I said.  The man loves the Fade.  He spends as much time as he can dreaming, and all his friends are spirits.  It's not a punishment - it's a holiday.

The evanuris are in the fade  somewhere,being  into a restricted pocket dimension of the fade is not an holiday is solitude which is the worst punishment for someone like Solas because is something very close to the meaning of dying alone without actually die.

[myahele]

I suppose making him tranquil, cutting off his tongue and binding him in lyrium chains (like what the qunari do) can be used a punishment. Even with tranquility reversed (depending on how long they've been tranquil) there's still lingering side effects.

[German Soldier]

I suppose making him tranquil, cutting off his tongue and binding him in lyrium chains (like what the qunari do) can be used a punishment. Even with tranquility reversed (depending on how long they've been tranquil) there's still lingering side effects.

If he is made tranquil(assuming that is possible because this guy is no ordinary mage)he will likely be someone else after the process thus he will not feel pain or sorrow at all.

[maia0407]

If he is made tranquil(assuming that is possible because this guy is no ordinary mage)he will likely be someone else after the process thus he will not feel pain or sorrow at all.

That would matter only if your goal was revenge and not just stopping him.

ETA: I have no desire to see Solas suffer. Assuming his plans aren't for some higher good (as in the world will die without intervention and his plan is the only way to save part of it; in that case I'd probably help him) my goal is to stop him and make sure no one else gets hurt. If that means sending him to a fade prison where he happily lives out his days, that's great. If I have to make him tranquil my heart will break but so be it. If I can simply convince him to give up his plans and help this world, win all around. I'm not out for revenge or to see him punished.

[Illyria]

If he is made tranquil(assuming that is possible because this guy is no ordinary mage)he will likely be someone else after the process thus he will not feel pain or sorrow at all.

 

So... your goal is to make him suffer, not to stop him?

 

Good to know, in a 'I really could've done without knowing that at all' way.

 

The evanuris are in the fade  somewhere,being  into a restricted pocket dimension of the fade is not an holiday is solitude which is the worst punishment for someone like Solas because is something very close to the meaning of dying alone without actually die.

 

Yeah, sorry.  It's still gonna be a holiday.  All his friends are there.

[In Exile]

Not just that, but aren't there multiple fables about how he always gets out of difficult situations somehow? Like Andruil and the Tree(distracts then chews through the ropes), and the Courser and the Wolf(bites off his tail), and The Slow Arrow(shoots an arrow, sacrifices half the people, but saves the other half when it comes down)? Even Cole said "The wolf chews off it's leg to escape the trap." I speculate that Solas probably had to give up something big to trap the Evanuris, because he was probably in the trap with them at the time he sprung it. 

 

I wonder if the gameplan was that Solas - to escape - would do to himself what he did to all of the elves. It all seems like, basically, the whole issue with the Veil is that Solas did to all the world what he only wanted to do to the Evanuris (and possibly himself). He wanted to trap them (or separate them from their power). So we have two theories:

 

1. Veil is a trap for the Evanuris, mean to separate them from their immortality and lock them away ala the Fade. That doesn't quite work, though, because the Fade isn't locked away - not really - and neither are the spirits.

2. The Veil is a side effect of what Solas did to the Evanuris - they're trapped elsewhere. The Fade - and everything getting split into "two" - is actually the wolf chewing his leg part - locking away your immortality was the escape plan he had for himself, but it went wrong. Which makes sense in a way, because it explains why he was "locked away" in the Fade for so long, with the rest of the spirits.

[Illyria]

I wonder if the gameplan was that Solas - to escape - would do to himself what he did to all of the elves. It all seems like, basically, the whole issue with the Veil is that Solas did to all the world what he only wanted to do to the Evanuris (and possibly himself). He wanted to trap them (or separate them from their power). So we have two theories:

 

1. Veil is a trap for the Evanuris, mean to separate them from their immortality and lock them away ala the Fade. That doesn't quite work, though, because the Fade isn't locked away - not really - and neither are the spirits.

2. The Veil is a side effect of what Solas did to the Evanuris - they're trapped elsewhere. The Fade - and everything getting split into "two" - is actually the wolf chewing his leg part - locking away your immortality was the escape plan he had for himself, but it went wrong. Which makes sense in a way, because it explains why he was "locked away" in the Fade for so long, with the rest of the spirits.

 

I've always seen the story of the slow arrow as being a metaphor for what he did to the elves.  It's clearly a very important story, since it's where Felassan's name comes from.

 

He saves the village (aka the elves) from the monster (the Evanuris) but in the process all the adults of the village are killed (the fall of the elven kingdom, since their 'gods' are silent, and magic is gone) but the children survive (the elves are still around, but without any guidance from their past.  Their history is gone and forgotten when the the fall of the elven empire happend)

[German Soldier]

That would matter only if your goal was revenge and not just stopping him.

ETA: I have no desire to see Solas suffer. Assuming his plans aren't for some higher good (as in the world will die without intervention and his plan is the only way to save part of it; in that case I'd probably help him) my goal is to stop him and make sure no one else gets hurt. If that means sending him to a fade prison where he happily lives out his days, that's great. If I have to make him tranquil my heart will break but so be it. If I can simply convince him to give up his plans and help this world, win all around. I'm not out for revenge or to see him punished.

That would matter if tranquility work for Solas or not,since this is a transcendent being who probably has the same features of Mythal in which he can use  his soul and rebuild the body from scratch thus nullify the tranquility and as far as i'm concerned nobody know how to destroy an Evanuris since it involve to attack their very soul.

 

So... your goal is to make him suffer, not to stop him?

 

Good to know, in a 'I really could've done without knowing that at all' way.

 

 

Yeah, sorry.  It's still gonna be a holiday.  All his friends are there.

I don't understand what you mean here,as far as i can tell imprison Solas is the only option because he cannot be killed and  being into a restricted portion of the fade does not mean being able to interact with spirits.

[Illyria]

I don't understand what you mean here,as far as i can tell imprison Solas is the only option because he cannot be killed and  being into a restricted portion of the fade does not mean being able to interact with spirits.

 

That's not how the Fade works, though.  And he'd still be able to dream, and interact with spirits that way.

 

Also, Solas can be made Tranquil.  Weekes confirmed that.

[German Soldier]

That's not how the Fade works, though.  And he'd still be able to dream, and interact with spirits that way.

 

Also, Solas can be made Tranquil.  Weekes confirmed that.

In which sense is not how fade work?

Solas did the same thing to his opponents and since they are not able to return and apparently are in a state of torment then it means that they are not free to roam in the fade, they are more likely limited to some dimensions in solitude in which magic was also sealed away.

 

I'm not arguing that he can or cannot be made a tranquil but that there is no proof to say that he would not be able to reverse tranquility.

[Illyria]

 

In which sense is not how fade work?

Solas did the same thing to his opponents and since they are not able to return and apparently are in a state of torment then it means that they are not free to roam in the fade, they are more likely limited to some dimensions in solitude in which magic was also sealed away.

 

I'm not arguing that he can or cannot be made a tranquil but that there is no proof to say that he would not be able to reverse tranquility.

 

 

Sealing the Evanuris had the side effect of creating the veil.  It's unlikely that Solas would ever be able to be sealed as they were.  The most you could do is seal him in the Fade.  Which would be a holiday.

 

And Solas can be made Tranquil.  Weekes confirmed this.  He's a mage, and would be affected in the same way as all mages.  That's not a theory - I got this from Weekes himself.

[German Soldier]

 

1. Veil is a trap for the Evanuris, mean to separate them from their immortality and lock them away ala the Fade. That doesn't quite work, though, because the Fade isn't locked away - not really - and neither are the spirits.

 

There are those banters of Cole in which it appears that the ancient elven rulers are imprisoned in the fade through mirrors,so from what i understood  it appears that these eluvians are also in the fade but they require specific  keys to be opened thus they were used to confine these persons in specific portions of the fade.

Also from what i understood they are still immortal.

 

Sealing the Evanuris had the side effect of creating the veil.  It's unlikely that Solas would ever be able to be sealed as they were.  The most you could do is seal him in the Fade.  Which would be a holiday.

 

And Solas can be made Tranquil.  Weekes confirmed this.  He's a mage, and would be affected in the same way as all mages.  That's not a theory - I got this from Weekes himself.

It created the veil the first time around now that there is already the veil it will not have any consequences.

The veil i think it was necessary to not allow the Evanuris to return after that they were imprisoned.

 

Ok,but as i pointed out who is to say that he cannot reverse it after he has being made into a tranquil?

Mythal dodged the state of being physically dead thus i don't see why Solas should not be able to do the same thing to his ill body by using his soul or simply kill himself then come back from the grave no more as a tranquil.