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[Illyria]

Good grief... my point is, you guys are saying that you're basing your understanding of the entire scene (Trespasser) on "story mechanics" and not what is said.  You're not basing it on the story being told... you're basing it on knowledge Patrick Weekes is telling you outside of the story.  If that's what you think is good writing - I can't change it - but it isn't.  I'll be happy to entertain the company of any literary critics you wish to send my way and have this very discussion with them.

 

@Illyria:  You admitted yourself... if you weren't reading this "as a story" - you could consider Solas a liar.  I'm sorry... but if I were to write something, I wouldn't want you to read it "as a story".  Sure, I can critique a story mechanically as well... but I don't consider that the same as reading a story.  Again.. you may, I can't change that. 

 

You know what - I'll bite.

 

How else am I mean to read it?  In stories people don't say things without meaning.  A character doesn't describe every second of their day - if a scene isn't relevant (either to the plot or characterisation or just worldbuilding) then it's cut.

 

So yes, when I met Solas, I believed him.  From my Lavellan's POV she'd found her closest friend/former lover again, and seen the truth of her people in the ruins of what had been their kingdom.  She'd been closer to Solas than anyone in the Inquisition, and she believed what he had to say.  What he said was confirmed by everything she'd witnessed in the lead up to meeting him.

 

From the perspective of the player I believe what he said because it's the final DLC for DAI and and was the long promised epilogue.

 

In real life I might not believe him, because in real life people are so much more complicated - and our lives don't follow a neat narrative.  I'm also not my Lavellan and Solas is not my former boyfriend.

[midnight tea]

Good grief... my point is, you guys are saying that you're basing your understanding of the entire scene (Trespasser) on "story mechanics" and not what is said.  You're not basing it on the story being told... you're basing it on knowledge Patrick Weekes is telling you outside of the story.  If that's what you think is good writing - I can't change it - but it isn't.  I'll be happy to entertain the company of any literary critics you wish to send my way and have this very discussion with them.

 

@Illyria:  You admitted yourself... if you weren't reading this "as a story" - you could consider Solas a liar.  I'm sorry... but if I were to write something, I wouldn't want you to read it "as a story".  Sure, I can critique a story mechanically as well... but I don't consider that the same as reading a story.  Again.. you may, I can't change that. 

 

Good Grief 2.0 - you know what, the moment I brought what Patrick Weekes has to say into this discussion earlier, I knew that eventually your criticism will morph into "well, this is not a very well told story". This is pretty much always what happens - people can't accept that neither the story NOR the author really supports how they view things, so they make it into the last-ditch effort to making themselves look like they're on top by flip-flopping from what story has to say to how it's told. This is so childish.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Illyria:  All valid... but I don't base my reactions to a character on the mechanics of storytelling.  

 

It would not be incorrect for me to say that your character's reaction... is based on biased information.  That's depth for your character.  Your Lavellan believes him because she loves him, he was her friend, and the information the story "actually" gave you made you form your opinion.  That is simply reading "a story". 

 

It's the same reason why you can see why someone would consider him a liar.  That doesn't mean he is a liar, it means that you can see a character who's view of the story is bias in different ways to view the story in a different fashion (hence, my grudgingly admitting there is complexity to Solas regardless of my biases toward him). 

 

Reading something "as a story" - is paying attention to tropes and mechanics and perspective and whether or not there is a passive or aggressive voice or any number of literary devices used to craft a good story.  I seriously doubt any engrossing story is approached that way by an audience on the first go around. 

 

@midnight tea:  Aww... look at you riding to Mr. Weekes defense.  He doesn't need it... he's a successful author.  Writing a novel is not the same as writing a game... I enjoyed The Masked Empire.  You know - the story where Solas kills his servant for displeasing him.

[Shechinah]

@midnight tea:  Aww... look at you riding to Mr. Weekes defense.  He doesn't need it... he's a successful author.  Writing a novel is not the same as writing a game... I enjoyed The Masked Empire.  You know - the story where Solas kills his servant for displeasing him.

 

You mean the story where Solas kills his friend because he had begun working against him and would likely continue to do so had he lived? I suppose you could phrase the motive as displeasure but that would lend itself to mistaken motive, I think. 
 

[Illyria]

@Illyria:  All valid... but I don't base my reactions to a character on the mechanics of storytelling.  

 

It would not be incorrect for me to say that your character's reaction... is based on biased information.  That's depth for your character.  Your Lavellan believes him because she loves him, he was her friend, and the information the story "actually" gave you made you form your opinion.  That is simply reading "a story". 

 

It's the same reason why you can see why someone would consider him a liar.  That doesn't mean he is a liar, it means that you can see a character who's view of the story is bias in different ways to view the story in a different fashion (hence, my grudgingly admitting there is complexity to Solas regardless of my biases toward him). 

 

Reading something "as a story" - is paying attention to tropes and mechanics and perspective and whether or not there is a passive or aggressive voice or any number of literary devices used to craft a good story.  I seriously doubt any engrossing story is approached that way by an audience on the first go around. 

 

@midnight tea:  Aww... look at you riding to Mr. Weekes defense.  He doesn't need it... he's a successful author.  Writing a novel is not the same as writing a game... I enjoyed The Masked Empire.  You know - the story where Solas kills his servant for displeasing him.

 

Again, if I'm not looking at the story as a story, how am I meant to look at it?.

 

I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm disaproving your 'I seriously doubt any engrossing story is approached that way by an audience on the first go around' statement, here.

 

And TME.  No.  Felassan was not Solas' servant - he was his friend.  And he was working towards the same goal that Solas was, and then betrayed him.  Solas killed him for that because he still didn't see modern people are 'real'.

 

Both a game and a novel are stories, both contian characters and both require a strong narrative. How are they not the same to write?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And TME.  No.  Felassan was not Solas' servant - he was his friend.  And he was working towards the same goal that Solas was, and then betrayed him.  Solas killed him for that because he still didn't see modern people are 'real'.

That just makes it worse in my opinion.

[Illyria]

That just makes it worse in my opinion.

 

I didn't say it was a good thing.

 

Solas killing Felassan almost made me stop being a fan of his.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I didn't say it was a good thing.

 

Solas killing Felassan almost made me stop being a fan of his.

Almost? If cold-blooded murder of a friend, seeing everyone as not people, and wanting to commit genocide to atone for the last time he committed genocide doesn't make you not a fan, I'm afraid of what will turn you off. 

[Illyria]

Almost? If cold-blooded murder of a friend, seeing everyone as not people, and wanting to commit genocide to atone for the last time he committed genocide doesn't make you not a fan, I'm afraid of what will turn you off. 

 

*shrugs*

 

I have changed my Lavellan canon to Josie, though.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm still frustrated that all this build up with the Inquisitor and Solas is going to be tossed out so they can have their new protagonist for DA4. There was such great potential, but now it will just be another madman wanting to destroy the world. 

[Shechinah]

Almost? If cold-blooded murder of a friend, seeing everyone as not people, and wanting to commit genocide to atone for the last time he committed genocide doesn't make you not a fan, I'm afraid of what will turn you off. 

 

I can be a fan of a character and their characterization while not be a fan of their actions, opinions and attitudes.
 

[myahele]

Almost? If cold-blooded murder of a friend, seeing everyone as not people, and wanting to commit genocide to atone for the last time he committed genocide doesn't make you not a fan, I'm afraid of what will turn you off. 

 

Not only that, but Fellasan seemed very terrified to go to sleep/ dream (due to Solas probably) throughout the novel up until his death. Though that might because he was planning to betray him, then. He also didn't paint his "master" in a good light, too.

[midnight tea]

@midnight tea:  Aww... look at you riding to Mr. Weekes defense.  He doesn't need it... he's a successful author.  Writing a novel is not the same as writing a game... I enjoyed The Masked Empire.  You know - the story where Solas kills his servant for displeasing him.

 

*WHOOSH* There goes my actual point, flying high above your head that is still crammed tightly where the sun does not reach.

 

Like... I love that suddenly this became me "defending Patrick Weekes", while it's you who suddenly began having problems with the story when it turned out that the author's views aren't congruous with how you view his own creation, or stories he contributed to.

 

And you know what? I have completely no problem discussing whether DA or else was written well or not, in fact I did, many times. But for that we must have valid points raised, instead of fervent defense of one's headcanon.

[Illyria]

I'm still frustrated that all this build up with the Inquisitor and Solas is going to be tossed out so they can have their new protagonist for DA4. There was such great potential, but now it will just be another madman wanting to destroy the world. 

 

Yeah.  The Inquisitor, whether they were his friend, lover or could barely stand him, has a personal connection to Solas.  Without that he's a totally unsympathetic character.  As the player I'll feel for him, as the PC I'll just want to stop him.

 

That is assuming that the Inquisitor is gone for good as a protag, though.

 

I can be a fan of a character and their characterization while not be a fan of their actions, opinions and attitudes.
 

 

Exactly.

 

I love Solas because he's so complicated, and so many conflicting things at once.  And I love villians that are driven by good intentions.

[Abyss108]

... What does whether the story is well told have to do with what Solas' characterisation is again? This seems to be a bit of a tangent - whether the mechanics were used well, or whether it's poorly written, or whether we should be able to see the mechanics, or things should have been shown differently... That doesn't change what the character is.

 

You can say that the scene showing these things is poorly done if you want, and that it shouldn't be so meta, etc. That doesn't change the fact that the scene is there, and these things are shown in the scene for the reasons discussed - to be taken as fact. You might not like the purpose of the scene, but that doesn't change what the purpose is.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah.  The Inquisitor, whether they were his friend, lover or could barely stand him, has a personal connection to Solas.  Without that he's a totally unsympathetic character.  As the player I'll feel for him, as the PC I'll just want to stop him.

 

That is assuming that the Inquisitor is gone for good as a protag, though.

Well, one of Trespasser's goals was to conclusively tie off the Inquisitor's story so I am almost certain they won't. Instead they'll brng in yet another new person who as we said will see nothing sympathetic in Solas and just want to stop him. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

My guess. Mythal wanted to go forward into a new age. Solas wants to go back and restore the old one.

They both want a different thing from the current Age.
Also i don't think Solas want to restore the empire he want the elves back without the Evanuris.

[Shechinah]

I'm still frustrated that all this build up with the Inquisitor and Solas is going to be tossed out so they can have their new protagonist for DA4. There was such great potential, but now it will just be another madman wanting to destroy the world. 

 

S'why I'm hoping for the good ol' dual protagonist idea and if that is not the way it is going to play out then so be: I'll have to settle for writing fanfiction of it.
 

[Abyss108]

Well, one of Trespasser's goals was to conclusively tie off the Inquisitor's story so I am almost certain they won't. Instead they'll brng in yet another new person who as we said will see nothing sympathetic in Solas and just want to stop him. 

 

I wouldn't be so sure of that based of a single slide from a talk given before they can actually talk about anything they have planned for the next game.

 

The writers made the choice to have every single Inquisitor state they would be involved, and the writers have said they want to respect the players choice to try and redeem Solas (just yesterday, Weekes was replying to someone in a tweet saying about the subject of Solas saying he likes to believe the best hope for humanity is empathy). They also said they want to have more resolution between the Inquisitor and Solas for the romance. That all goes against the next plot simply being "kill Solas". 

[Baboontje]

I seem to recall that it has been stated somewhere that the books/comics/whatever, aren't canon. So I wonder how that comes into play with the whole Solas/Felassan thing. Genuinely curious here. Haven't read the book, can't seem to get past Celene walking across the Andraste-tiled floor. :')

[Abyss108]

I seem to recall that it has been stated somewhere that the books/comics/whatever, aren't canon. So I wonder how that comes into play with the whole Solas/Felassan thing. Genuinely curious here. Haven't read the book, can't seem to get past Celene walking across the Andraste-tiled floor. :')

 

No, all the books/comics/etc are completely canon. If the events don't match up with your world state (e.g. Alistair being king), then the events still happened, just in a slightly different way which ensures everything ends up in the same state.

[Obliviousmiss]

 

My my, this thread has become quite the free entertainment since I last posted here. 

 

Solas lovers who still love him post Trespasser vs Solas haters who used to love him. 

 

Pass the popcorn! 

[Sah291]

They both want a different thing from the current Age.
Also i don't think Solas want to restore the empire he want the elves back without the Evanuris.

I'm not sure about that. I mean, I agree he doesn't exactly want to restore the old empire/evanuris. But there are references about how change is coming, and how the current age is coming to an end.

The current age, the Dragon Age, is a period of change and upheaval. Corypheus, Mythal, Solas... It's about whose ideals will prevail into the future. If Mythal is banking on Morrigan, her perspective is quite different from Solas'.

That's why Corypheus was the nightmare scenario for everyone and had to be stopped. No one wanted him to become the god of the next age.

[German Soldier]

Solas himself tells us that the orb was soaking up power while he was unconscious for millenia - and even that the explosion was the result of the orb overflowing in it. There's no mention of soul or anything, plus Dorian mentions in banter that the Tevinters called the orbs "Somnaboriums" which means "vessels of dreams". Judging form that - and the color of power emanating fro the orb, which is green -it may simply be that the orb is a very capacious storing device that can absorb a lot of raw energy from the Fade over a long period of time for a person it's assigned to.

And it's no wonder Solas would want/need it - he tells us that he woke "still weak" from his slumber. Apparently the creation of the Veil OR the trap he sprung for Evanuris that eventually "the wolf chewed its leg off" to escape has drained him to the point of turning him catatonic for millenia. He would need raw power to charge his batteries - though ironically he didn't even have enough power to unlock it.

Even more so - he went after Flemeth's power ONLY after his orb was destroyed.

The Orb is like a storage of power but it isn't in iself powerful since it's energy were absorbed from the fade for many, many years.
Maybe the Evanuris can do the same thing like thir orb they can absorb fade energy so i think that Solas did not had the patience to wait for his own powers to grow.
Also he was in Uthenara with i suppose others ancient elves that were his friends like Felassan.
Anyway i don't really understand him when he said that the evanuris are in torment when they can simply sleep like he did (I think Cole even said that they are not awake)and leave their Orbs to absorb the fade energy.

[Illyria]

Well, one of Trespasser's goals was to conclusively tie off the Inquisitor's story so I am almost certain they won't. Instead they'll brng in yet another new person who as we said will see nothing sympathetic in Solas and just want to stop him. 

 

They said the 'Inquisitor's' story.  No matter what happens at the end, they're not the Inquisitor anymore...