4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

About the fate of modern elves:

 

I think the main problem lies in Solas' line at the end of Trespasser where he says the Inquisitor will (very probably) die along with most other people presently alive. Which implies he doesn't really make a distinction between humans and elves, all will suffer for his plans, in contradiction to what he said only a minute earlier about saving "his people". 

 

So who exactly is going to survive to live in Solas' restored Veil-less world?

 

I think there isn't an in-world explanation for this. The line was likely put in for drama, so that an elven Inquisitor wouldn't have an easy way of going along wth Solas plans and surviving. That this creates a contradiction was apparently of lesser importance. Bioware should *really* try harder to anchor their drama consistently in what was said elsewhere.

 

The only in-world explanation *would* mean that he cares about certain elves more than others, and that "my people" only applies to the former. But then, who exactly *are* his people. There aren't many ancient elves left, and everywhere else it is implied that "his people" are the elves.

[Almostfaceman]

There's another problem with trying to squeeze the "ancient elves" into being the elves Solas is concerned with restoring. Solas was going to throw down the Veil after the death of Corypheus, which he anticipated before he knew of or met any group of ancient elves that we know of - specifically the elves in the Temple of Mythal.

 

Inq: What would have happened if Corypheus had died and you'd recovered the orb? 

 

Solas: I would have entered the Fade, using the mark you now bear. Then I would have torn down the Veil. As this world burned in the raw chaos, I would have restored the world of my time.. the world of the elves. 

 

The world of the elves destruction is his responsibility. He feels this. It has an effect on the elves and that effect can only be embodied in the modern elves. They fit perfectly into the description of whom Solas wants to restore. 

 

Inq: You were a hero, Solas. 

 

Solas: I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen'Harel, and when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever. Thus I freed the elven people and, in so doing, destroyed their world. 

 

Inq: How did creating the Veil destroy the world? 

 

Solas: You saw the remains of Vir Dirthara. The library was intrinsically tied to the Fade, and the Veil destroyed it. There were countless other marvels, all dependent on the presence of the Fade, all destroyed. Your legends are half-right. We were immortal. It was not the arrival of humans that caused us to begin aging. It was me. The Veil took everything from the elves, even themselves.

 

What group fits this perfectly? The modern elves. Are they "his people"? In a very real sense, no. In a very real sense yes. They've had themselves taken from them. By who? Solas. Are modern elves aging and dying from old age? Yes. 

 

But even if they've lost themselves, he still will try to restore them. This fits perfectly with his original plan, before they had to fight Corypheus.

 

Inq: That's the past. What about the future? 

 

Solas: I lay in dark and dreaming sleep while countless wars and ages passed. I woke still weak a year before I joined you. My people fell for what I did to strike the Evanuris down, but still some hope remains for restoration. I will save the elven people. Even if it means this world must die. 

 

So, even though he's mad at the Dalish and city elves for losing their way... Even though they've lost their identity and history... he still wants to restore them. He's responsible for their state. 

 

The ancient elves at the Temple of Mythal haven't lost their lore and they haven't lost their agelessness. They still serve Mythal. Solas didn't know about them, thus his plan didn't include them. They aren't feeling the effects of the Veil like the rest of the elven people, since they have a magical Temple and uthenera to sustain them in their duty to Mythal. These aren't the elves Solas is talking about. 

 

Now, that doesn't mean after he discovers them that he'd automatically spurn them joining his cause. Abelas very well may have joined up with him at some point. We don't know. There's no information available about that. 

[German Soldier]

the ancient elves in the temple of Mythal aren't dying of old age. 

 

He's recruiting the modern elves to restore them. Just like he states. 

 

Edit: Also there's no mention of the ancient elves in the epilogue. It actually specifically doesn't mention them. So I still haven't seen any evidence that Solas is gathering a large number of ancient elves. 

They  sleep to dodge aging.

Anyway i suppose that since the ancient elves know who the Dread wolf is they may have no reason to want to follow him since they were followers of the Evanuris.

[Almostfaceman]

About the fate of modern elves:

 

I think the main problem lies in Solas' line at the end of Trespasser where he says the Inquisitor will (very probably) die along with most other people presently alive. Which implies he doesn't really make a distinction between humans and elves, all will suffer for his plans, in contradiction to what he said only a minute earlier about saving "his people". 

 

So who exactly is going to survive to live in Solas' restored Veil-less world?

 

I think there isn't an in-world explanation for this. The line was likely put in for drama, so that an elven Inquisitor wouldn't have an easy way of going along wth Solas plans and surviving. That this creates a contradiction was apparently of lesser importance. Bioware should *really* try harder to anchor their drama consistently in what was said elsewhere.

 

The only in-world explanation *would* mean that he cares about certain elves more than others, and that "my people" only applies to the former. But then, who exactly *are* his people. There aren't many ancient elves left, and everywhere else it is implied that "his people" are the elves.

 

When I first played through Trespasser, I concluded that Solas wouldn't seriously consider the Inquisitor because the Inquisitor was clearly tied to Thedas and cared for the citizens. So much so that they risked their life to keep them safe. 

 

I don't think Solas took seriously the possibility that an Inquisitor that connected to the people of Thedas would abide their destruction. Something not necessarily true of modern elves living in alienages or in Dalish clans. 

[Abyss108]

Solas didn't know about the Elves in that specific temple. He knew about others - he tells Abelas that. And as I said Abelas writes about other elves in the temple aging and dying. I can't find the quote right now as I'm on my phone, but it is stated that news elves in the temple are being born mortal.

[German Soldier]

About the fate of modern elves:

 

I think the main problem lies in Solas' line at the end of Trespasser where he says the Inquisitor will (very probably) die along with most other people presently alive. Which implies he doesn't really make a distinction between humans and elves, all will suffer for his plans, in contradiction to what he said only a minute earlier about saving "his people". 

 

So who exactly is going to survive to live in Solas' restored Veil-less world?

 

I think there isn't an in-world explanation for this. The line was likely put in for drama, so that an elven Inquisitor wouldn't have an easy way of going along wth Solas plans and surviving. That this creates a contradiction was apparently of lesser importance. Bioware should *really* try harder to anchor their drama consistently in what was said elsewhere.

 

The only in-world explanation *would* mean that he cares about certain elves more than others, and that "my people" only applies to the former. But then, who exactly *are* his people. There aren't many ancient elves left, and everywhere else it is implied that "his people" are the elves.

I'm beginning to think he referenced to the modern elves since now that i think about it the ancient elves have no reason to follow Solas since they are the Evanuris supporters

[Almostfaceman]

Solas didn't know about the Elves in that specific temple. He knew about others - he tells Abelas that. And as I said Abelas writes about other elves in the temple aging and dying. I can't find the quote right now as I'm on my phone, but it is stated that news elves in the temple are being born mortal.

 

That's not evidence of a large group of ancient elves. He's just referring to himself, hinting at it instead of saying it out-right. Since he's hiding his identity. Abelas says "others such as yourself." And Solas says "such as I". 

 

Again, there's no evidence of a large number of ancient elves anywhere. I think there's one ancient elf helping out Solas in a Dragon Age novel. That's evidence of one ancient elf. 

 

I'm open to evidence of a large number of ancient elves, large enough to re-start a new population of elves. But I haven't seen that yet. 

 

If there were a large group of ancient elves, why aren't they mentioned in the epilogue? Why wouldn't the story clearly be about this group? Why bother with the modern elves at all and all the evidence in the game that they still retain a special link with the Fade? 

 

The easiest and simplest answer is that the modern elves are the people Solas is talking about restoring. They fit the description perfectly. 

[Almostfaceman]

Yes, he says this if you are friends. He does not believe this at all if you are not

 

I'm not trying to be obstinate, but I have to ask for a source for this assumption. Solas quite clearly has conversations with other people besides the Inquisitor (like Sera) in which he reaches out to them. Which is natural, since, as it's revealed in his ending dialogue, he ultimately feels (and is) responsible for what's become of them. 

[straykat]

He's a dipshit. Sera is a cooler elf than he ever will be. Same with my CE. I don't think they need his pity. The only good thing he did was liberate them.

[Ieldra]

When I first played through Trespasser, I concluded that Solas wouldn't seriously consider the Inquisitor because the Inquisitor was clearly tied to Thedas and cared for the citizens. So much so that they risked their life to keep them safe. 

 

I don't think Solas took seriously the possibility that an Inquisitor that connected to the people of Thedas would abide their destruction. Something not necessarily true of modern elves living in alienages or in Dalish clans. 

Except that it isn't required that the Inquisitor cares about the people of Thedas for the plot to work. An elven Inquisitor was even Dalish and you could affirm your connection to them. Also, the Inquisitor may have risked her life just to save herself.

 

I maintain there's a contradiction in his dialogue lines, that people attempt to resolve by saying he only cares about ancient elves. I don't believe that, because the plot makes little sense if that's the case, but I find it understandable to make that assumption.

[Almostfaceman]

Except that it isn't required that the Inquisitor cares about the people of Thedas for the plot to work. An elven Inquisitor was even Dalish and you could affirm your connection to them. The Inquisitor may have risked her life just to save herself.

 

Eh, I don't agree. The Inquisition, which you lead, is directed to save all of Thedas. Not just a few Dalish clans. So you're really forced to play a character that's empathetic enough to care about the citizens of Thedas. You don't have to just go about closing rifts, you have to make nice with human rulers, play politics and manage a close inner-circle of shems effectively. 

 

This may be a by-product of the game being originally set up just for a human protagonist. You don't really get to go about sneering at all of Thedas reluctantly saving the shems even though you don't want to do so. Something that you could sort of pull off in Origins. 

[straykat]

Eh, I don't agree. The Inquisition, which you lead, is directed to save all of Thedas. Not just a few Dalish clans. So you're really forced to play a character that's empathetic enough to care about the citizens of Thedas. You don't have to just go about closing rifts, you have to make nice with human rulers, play politics and manage a close inner-circle of shems effectively. 

 

This may be a by-product of the game being originally set up just for a human protagonist. You don't really get to go about sneering at all of Thedas reluctantly saving the shems even though you don't want to do so. Something that you could sort of pull off in Origins. 

 

That makes it lame too.

 

I understand there are unique Dalish, but it's so convenient it's a little sickening. Everytime we have a Dalish close to the player, they're nice and unique. Barring Velanna at least. That was true to form. Largely, they're rarely seen, and when they are, people are scared to death. Their world building just falls apart though when you give that responsibility to the player. Few people want to play a typical Dalish. They want to be magical hippies.

[Almostfaceman]

That makes it lame too.

 

I understand there are unique Dalish, but it's so convenient it's a little sickening. Everytime we have a Dalish close to the player, they're nice and unique. Barring Velanna at least. That was true to form. Largely, they're rarely seen, and when they are, people are scared to death. Their world building just falls apart though when you give that responsibility to the player. Few people want to play a typical Dalish. They want to be magical hippies.

 

Though I really enjoyed the game, we definitely could have used a lot more Origins style Dalish perspective. I particularly missed it with the lore parts of the story. 

[nightscrawl]

Eh, I don't agree. The Inquisition, which you lead, is directed to save all of Thedas. Not just a few Dalish clans. So you're really forced to play a character that's empathetic enough to care about the citizens of Thedas. You don't have to just go about closing rifts, you have to make nice with human rulers, play politics and manage a close inner-circle of shems effectively. 

 

This may be a by-product of the game being originally set up just for a human protagonist. You don't really get to go about sneering at all of Thedas reluctantly saving the shems even though you don't want to do so. Something that you could sort of pull off in Origins. 

 

No, you are very much not. When you are handed the sword you can choose to say what kind of Inquisition it will be, one of which is to basically say that you are doing it for your own power (this gets the most disapproval from the followers). I really can't say anything regarding elves specifically, but there are dialogue options that allow you to be selfish; you are not required to care about Thedas.

 

Also, making nice with human nobles and playing politics doesn't necessarily mean that you care about "the shems," it simply shows that you will do what is necessary to accomplish your goals.

 

However, I will say that one thing that hurts this potential RP for a Dalish is the lack of racist options, which Bioware seems to have no interest in doing, for any character, regardless of race.

[German Soldier]

 

I maintain there's a contradiction in his dialogue lines, that people attempt to resolve by saying he only cares about ancient elves. I don't believe that, because the plot makes little sense if that's the case, but I find it understandable to make that assumption.

There is no reason to not assume that the ancient elves know that Solas is the Dread wolf thus they know who destroyed the empire and they will never follow him,more likely they will kill him or try t use him to release their gods.

So Solas is trying to use the modern elves and make them like the ancient elves.

[Almostfaceman]

No, you are very much not. When you are handed the sword you can choose to say what kind of Inquisition it will be, one of which is to basically say that you are doing it for your own power (this gets the most disapproval from the followers). I really can't say anything regarding elves specifically, but there are dialogue options that allow you to be selfish; you are not required to care about Thedas.

 

Also, making nice with human nobles and playing politics doesn't necessarily mean that you care about "the shems," it simply shows that you will do what is necessary to accomplish your goals.

 

However, I will say that one thing that hurts this potential RP for a Dalish is the lack of racist options, which Bioware seems to have no interest in doing, for any character, regardless of race.

 

Again I disagree. That little declaration does little to mitigate the fact that you have to put a lot of effort in working with a lot of shems to save the world and there's just not a lot of dialogue options to make you "feel" like you're doing whatever your doing for selfish reasons. Edit: Or even that you're begrudgingly working with shems. 

 

But hey you're entitled to you opinion, I respect that. We can just agree to disagree. 

[midnight tea]

I don't recall any piece of lore about the golden city from the elves.

it does not really matter what they don't remember because many things they got half-right so for them to not have any reference to the city it means that is probably something that it was not present in their world in the current form.

 

Do you recall any piece of lore that mentions that there was no Veil? Do you recall any lore piece about places like Vir Dirthara? Do you recall any lore piece that mentions the fact that elves called spirits their brethren once, and seem to in fact derive from them? There aren't even many mentions of eluvians or the fact that they can lead to different pocked dimensions.

 

You can't just point to - as Solas calls it - fragments of fragments and say that the Dalish got the things "half-right". They didn't even get it quarter-right. 

 

Plus, whether it was present or they were even aware of it doesn't matter. The only people to whom the City matters could only be the Evanuris, for all we know.

 

I don't understand what you are trying to address with the blue light of the old god soul,from what i recall from DAO in game every soul has that color since every time the PC die it is surrounded by a glowing blue aura(which i presume is their soul which is passing in the fade) and then game over.

 

So you ignore everything I said and only focus on blue light (which btw. is not the same as "light of the soul"?)

 

The magic they use has a distinct blue tone. And the only people who we saw posses such magic as of now is Flemythal, Solas, OGB Kieran and, to certain extent, Abelas when he tries to destroy the Well Of Sorrows.

 

Spoiler

 

[midnight tea]

Again I disagree. That little declaration does little to mitigate the fact that you have to put a lot of effort in working with a lot of shems to save the world and there's just not a lot of dialogue options to make you "feel" like you're doing whatever your doing for selfish reasons. 

 

Don't worry, your companions will be eager to point out that you're not doing much outside of bare minimum. What's more, in some scenes - like one with Solas, or Cassandra if I recall - Inky can totally admit that they lie or do stuff just to get more power.

[nightscrawl]

Again I disagree. That little declaration does little to mitigate the fact that you have to put a lot of effort in working with a lot of shems to save the world and there's just not a lot of dialogue options to make you "feel" like you're doing whatever your doing for selfish reasons. 

 

You have to work with the humans because they are the majority. If you don't then nothing gets done and everyone dies, including you. But that doesn't mean that the game is forcing you to "care," which is the word you used. Cooperating is not the same as caring. People work together with people they dislike, or even despise, all the time because they have no choice. Being forced to work with such people is a fact of life.

 

 

[edit]

While it may be true that there are not enough such dialogue options, you can't ignore the ones that are there. There may be too few, or the present ones may not be entirely satisfactory, but they are there for you to make in some cases.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 21 avril 2016 - 12:35 .

[Almostfaceman]

Don't worry, your companions will be eager to point out that you're not doing much outside of bare minimum. What's more, in some scenes - like one with Solas, or Cassandra if I recall - Inky can totally admit that they lie or do stuff just to get more power.

 

I've played the game a lot, and I haven't seen options available that would equal, say, a lawful evil Bhaalspawn in Baldurs Gate. That makes sense. Inquisition is "hero steps in and saves Thedas" and Baldur's Gate is "hero saves himself because idiots are trying to kill him". 

 

But hey, that's my take. People can put a lot of things into the options available... to fit their view of their character. I honestly wouldn't have minded a more selfish or "evil" Inquisitor. I just didn't see it, honestly. And I certainly never ever felt enough "Dalish". 

 

Anyway, I respect the differences, I've made my point. I'll drop it. 

[nightscrawl]

But hey, that's my take. People can put a lot of things into the options available... to fit their view of their character. I honestly wouldn't have minded a more selfish or "evil" Inquisitor. I just didn't see it, honestly. And I certainly never ever felt enough "Dalish".

I think the fault with that may lie partly with the paraphrase system since we can't see all of the resultant options unless we reload to look at everything (which I've done with some dialogues and is quite tedious). Like DA2, the game primarily uses nice (top), humorous (middle), or harsh/direct (bottom) as the predictable pattern, but it may not always work out that way, especially if you are going by the paraphrase statement alone.

 

I generally think that some head canon is needed for many choices because there are rarely going to be those moments when the player says, "That is exactly what my PC would have said!" We have to live with the options we have and sometimes pick the least worst, or the one that is the closest approximation to the words we have in our head.

 

Even with DAO, which had no paraphrases, there were many times where I grudgingly picked an option because it was the closest available to what I would prefer to say.

[Shechinah]

Even with DAO, which had no paraphrases, there were many times where I grudgingly picked an option because it was the closest available to what I would prefer to say.

 

To this day, I still headcanon that this was my Warden's response to this bit of Loghain's speech during the Landsmeet:

 

Loghain: "How much Ferelden blood does Orlesian gold buy these days?"

Warden: "How much Ferelden blood does Teviner gold buy these days?"

[German Soldier]

Do you recall any piece of lore that mentions that there was no Veil? Do you recall any lore piece about places like Vir Dirthara? Do you recall any lore piece that mentions the fact that elves called spirits their brethren once, and seem to in fact derive from them? There aren't even many mentions of eluvians or the fact that they can lead to different pocked dimensions.

 

You can't just point to - as Solas calls it - fragments of fragments and say that the Dalish got the things "half-right". They didn't even get it quarter-right. 

 

Plus, whether it was present or they were even aware of it doesn't matter. The only people to whom the City matters could only be the Evanuris, for all we know.

 

 

So you ignore everything I said and only focus on blue light (which btw. is not the same as "light of the soul"?)

 

The magic they use has a distinct blue tone. And the only people who we saw posses such magic as of now is Flemythal, Solas, OGB Kieran and, to certain extent, Abelas when he tries to destroy the Well Of Sorrows.

 

Spoiler

 

From Solas perspective the modern elves took everything half-right since it is what he said in the final Dlc.

I can expect for the elves to forget about the library or the eluvians after thousands of years,however i don't expect them to forget about something as colossal and big as the golden city which every mage can see.

The veil was not present in the empire  thus the structure of the world was different and the city could have been not present at the center of the fade this is why i said that maybe this structure was not present in the same form,heck some believe that it is Arlathan itself now tainted.

 

 

That it has a distinct blue tone is untrue because Solas magic also lies in green waves and that glowing blue spark was released from Abelas was mostly his soul not his magic.

As far as i can tell what you said is true only for Flemeth and urthemiel whom soul may be just a piece of the soul of Mythal that she took back.

[German Soldier]

To this day, I still headcanon that this was my Warden's response to this bit of Loghain's speech during the Landsmeet:

 

Loghain: "How much Ferelden blood does Orlesian gold buy these days?"

Warden: "How much Ferelden blood does Teviner gold buy these days?"

Are we even sure that he think that elves are citizens?

[nightscrawl]

To this day, I still headcanon that this was my Warden's response to this bit of Loghain's speech during the Landsmeet:

 

Loghain: "How much Ferelden blood does Orlesian gold buy these days?"

Warden: "How much Ferelden blood does Teviner gold buy these days?"

 

Oooo BURN! I love it!