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[Addictress]

It's a contradiction.

Let's say Almostfaceman is right. But I maintain Solas and Abelas DID say the modern elves are NOT people, at the same time. It works if Solas and Abelas draw the line between generations. They reject the modern descendants and say they are NOT their people, but acknowledge their ancestors were their people. Thus Solas will technically transform the modern elves back to people status. In addition, a line is drawn down to the individual modern elf - before he takes down the veil, individual X is not a person, and afterward, individual X IS a person. Within the same body. Not people before, people after.

When the Inquisitor says "we aren't even people to you," she is referring to not just herself but the other races. Thus, while the modern elves will technically be okay, Solas still mourns the upcoming genocide of all the other races. Because with the friendly inquisitor, he must have also started to see the personhoods of the other races, via the companions and their particularities.

This doesn't cancel out the probability that even if the modern elves are the ones being restored, many will still die as casualties. There could be genetic factors and some will revert successfully while many do not.

It is odd though.

[straykat]

What's funny is he thinks Spirits are people.

 

Screw him. He can die in a car fire.

 

If there were cars in this setting.

[straykat]

Strangely, I'm kind of reminded of Vaughn, who told my City Elf that he and other elves were just animals.

 

Solas is no better. And if some people weren't so attached to their Elf Twilight romance story, they'd see it this way.

[Addictress]

What's funny is he thinks Spirits are people.

Screw him. He can die in a car fire.

If there were cars in this setting.

Maybe you're just jelly

[Shechinah]

Strangely, I'm kind of reminded of Vaughn, who told my City Elf that he and other elves were just animals.

 

Solas is no better. And if some people weren't so attached to their Elf Twilight romance story, they'd see it this way.

 

Ehh, there are quite a number of differences between Solas and Vaughn.

 

To name a major difference; Solas opposes pointless cruelty and approves of compassion including helping others. This he shows even before he comes to see modern people differently. Vaughn, on the other hand, revel in pointless cruelty and does not even have a speck of compassion in him.
 

[straykat]

Ehh, there is quite a difference between Solas and Vaughn such as how Solas opposes pointless cruelty and approves of compassion. This is even before he changes his mind about modern people. Vaughn, on the other hand, revel in pointless cruelty and does not a speck of compassion in him.
 

 

Denying that someone is a person is already bad enough. Threatening to destroy the world..... nay, the nature of existence itself? He's worse than Vaughn.

[straykat]

Maybe you're just jelly

 

Not at all. I love the City Elves especially. They might not be elfy elves, but they're my favorite "people". They're the closest thing to commoner issues.

[Addictress]

Like Varric said, about the man on the island. He's still living and it still counts as a life. Whereas Solas believes it is giving up. Giving up, which equates to dead already - and the dead are not people.

The modern elves are dead already in his eyes.

[Shechinah]

Denying that someone is a person is already bad enough. Threatening to destroy the world..... nay, the nature of existence itself? He's worse than Vaughn.

 

We'll have to disagree on that; what Solas intend to do is horrible but as strangely as I know this will sound, I still consider Vaughn to be more horrible a person because of the motivation behind his actions, his reasoning and his personality.

[straykat]

We'll have to disagree on that; what Solas intend to do is horrible but as strangely as I know this will sound, I still consider Vaughn to be more horrible a person because of the motivation behind his actions, his reasoning and his personality.

 

Fair enough.

 

The fact that we're even talking about it though should be troubling enough.

[Shechinah]

Not at all. I love the City Elves especially. They might not be elfy elves, but they're my favorite "people". They're the closest thing to commoner issues.

 

I'm hoping we'll have the option of playing a city elf in the next game. I quite liked them as well and seeing things from the bottom of society which they tend to show given where they are in society.

[Addictress]

I'm hoping we'll have the option of playing a city elf in the next game. I quite liked them as well and seeing things from the bottom of society which they tend to show given where they are in society.

This. They should lead a slave rebellion among elves and furthermore when they finally face off with Solas, Solas will be ashamed as he discovers he has become a twisted enemy of his own virtues. He's opposing someone who reminds him of his former self.

[myahele]

Ehh, there are quite a number of differences between Solas and Vaughn.

 

To name a major difference; Solas opposes pointless cruelty and approves of compassion including helping others. This he shows even before he comes to see modern people differently. Vaughn, on the other hand, revel in pointless cruelty and does not even have a speck of compassion in him.
 

 

I suppose it depends on where you draw the line. Doesn't he approve of torture to get info? At the very least he'll approve of making Calpurnia's former master into tranquil in order to get intel on corypheus. This is a guy who can read minds and have spirit friends that can probably do the same.

[Shechinah]

I suppose it depends on where you draw the line. Doesn't he approve of torture to get info? At the very least he'll approve of making Calpurnia's former master into tranquil in order to get intel on corypheus. This is a guy who can read minds and have spirit friends that can probably do the same.

 

Wait, Solas can read minds?
 

[Sah291]

I think some are taking the "not real people" thing too literal. Solas has emotionally distanced himself from thinking of them as real in order to do the things he does. And he's probably been doing it a very long time. He says he didn't fight a war against immortal god kings without getting his hands dirty.

Solas doesn't see the elves of modern Thedas as his people because 1) he feels they rejected him, and 2) they either identify with human culture, and/or the Evanuris--the very gods he fought to free his people from. So he does not relate to them as a people.

Besides, aren't the Dalish supposed to be the descendants of elven nobility? Or so they like to think. I could have sworn I read a codex about that, maybe back in Origins, but I could be wrong. They believe they are real elves because they are descendants of the Evanuris and continue to worship them, hoping to restore an empire one day. If so, I can see why Solas dislikes them so...and it goes beyond them simply being closed minded or ignorant to his attempts to give them advice. Solas' rebellion was a slave rebellion.

It's possible he could come to accept modern elves, specifically the ones joining his cause now, if they are rallying to the banner of Fen'Harel. If they will survive the Veil drop with the rest of the ancient elves isn't clear, though.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  Where is the evidence he's trying to save ancient elves (I'm asking - not challenging).  Yes, of course he wants to save "his people" - but...

 

1)  Solas meets ancient elves... ancient servant elves of the goddess he supposedly also served - and seems unmoved.  

 

2)  Solas freely calls Spirits people.

 

3)  Solas talks about freeing spirits from the Fade a lot as well.

 

Do we have actual, non-headcanoned info about elves that aren't the Evanuris hiding behind mirrors?  I know know Cole mentions beings hiding behind mirrors... but he could have easily been talking about the Evanuris.

 

SIDE NOTE:  Cole also talks about the Maker as if he is a fact - do all the people that use Cole for fact finding also believe in the Maker?  When he talks about the Maker with Solas... Solas doesn't even correct him... it's as natural as common knowledge to the two of them.

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
Well I think it's based on dialogue and his interactions with characters like Abelas (saying how there is a place for him). But since you mention it, I do wonder if he is being completely honest about who he considers to be his people. When he meets Mythal, saying "The People Need Me" seems to be the magic words for her to give him her power willingly. I wouldn't be surprised if we later find out there was some misdirection going on. But it's impossible to say now.

Yes, that the Maker exists, is hinted at a lot, IMO. Solas mentions at one point meeting a spirit that was so old it didn't remember what it was. I'm sure there could be spirits and beings even older than the Evanuris and Titans.

[midnight tea]

@Medhia_Nox,
Well I think it's based on dialogue and his interactions with characters like Abelas (saying how there is a place for him). But since you mention it, I do wonder if he is being completely honest about who he considers to be his people. When he meets Mythal, saying "The People Need Me" seems to be the magic words for her to give him her power willingly. I wouldn't be surprised if we later find out there was some misdirection going on. But it's impossible to say now.

Yes, that the Maker exists, is hinted at a lot, IMO. Solas mentions at one point meeting a spirit that was so old it didn't remember what it was. I'm sure there could be spirits and beings even older than the Evanuris and Titans.

 

To be perfectly honest we don't really know what either mean when they say "the People". TBH I think it's a bit more complicated than just ancient people with pointy ears...

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  Chances are he does mean the elves... but, it's interesting because he says this to Dorian.

 

Empires rise and fall. Arlathan was no more "innocent" than your own Tevinter in its time.
Solas: Your nostalgia for the ancient elves, however romanticized, is pointless.
Solas: If you wish to make amends for past transgressions, free the slaves of all races who live in Tevinter today.

 

Seems odd that he would be so obsessed with "fixing" what he's done... 

 

1)  It shows the wisdom of knowing that things change... which Trespasser does not. 

2)  It shows that he does NOT romanticize the ancient elves... 

3)  And it shows that he has a sense of the relevance for Thedas' modern times... which Trespasser does not.

 

"Something" about Solas is a total misdirection... it is interesting that he "was" a trickster... and is now considered a god of rebellion (I read that somewhere I'll have to find it)

 

@Midnight tea:  Agreed.   

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,
Yeah that is how he is portrayed in Dalish legend, someone who once betrayed both sides in a conflict. Could be that was closer to the truth and he is playing the middle again. But he wouldn't tell the Inquisitor that.

@midnight tea,
I agree, "The People" is ambiguous label.

The "People" as in...the public (as opposed to the state/ruling class)? The commoners? The masses? I could see Mythal using it that way, given her role as protector and arbitrator of justice.

[myahele]

I wonder just how much elvhen nobility still exists?

 

From what I understand, many were killed in Uthenera as stated by Fellasan. Even then, those who weren't in Uthenera would all have grown old and died alongside the commoners.

 

Outside of Sentinals, seems as if Uthenera was a thing that only elvhen nobles did.

 

Though I think that, for the most part, since putting the Veil ended up stripping Elves of immortality, perhaps lifting it would gain their immortality again? Seems like a simple hypothese, but could it be accurate?

 

Zathrian was able to achieve immortality by binding a Forest Spirit, though I dont think Solas would approve of such methods.

[Medhia_Nox]

@myahele:  Has it ever been explained why the Sentinels are immortal... it's not like the Veil is down in the Temple of Mythal.  

 

Are we "assuming" the Well of Sorrows does it?   What evidence do we have for that?

 

NOTE:  IF the elves achieved immortality by binding spirits... I will be even more against bringing the Veil down.  But... even I have to admit that Solas doesn't seem... at all... anti-spirit.  Quite the opposite.  So - perhaps it is "a way" but not "the way" it is done.  

[Shechinah]

@myahele:  Has it ever been explained why the Sentinels are immortal... it's not like the Veil is down in the Temple of Mythal.  .

 

I believe the Sentinels enter uthenera, a supposed sleep during which they do not age. They awaken only when the Temple is intruded upon. I believe Abelas mentions this either in dialogue or in a translated codex entry, possibly both.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I believe the Sentinels enter uthenera, a supposed sleep during which they do not age. They awaken only when the Temple is intruded upon. I believe Abelas mentions this either in dialogue or in a translated codex entry, possibly both.

Yes, Abelas mentions it. 

[Shechinah]

Interesting...

 

"Outside of the Inquisition's inner circle, most people believe Abelas to be part of a delusional sect. Historians have deemed the Sentinels' arms and armors, which were bought back from the Arbor Wilds by Inquisition soldiers, of superb craftmanship, but don't believe any cloth or metal could have survived untarnished as long as Abelas claims." - Abelas, Trivia section on the Wikipedia. It cites World of Thedas vol. 2 as the information source.

"We are trapped. The ones born here do not understand the keenness of what we have lost, or why so many of their elders weep as they enter uthenera. The new ones are faithful to Mythal, but do not understand what she was in her fullness. Without the wise to lead them, they will lose what they should have been.

I will teach them. They must serve. We must prepare for those who cast Mythal down. I shed my name the day I began her service. I shed my new one again, now that she rests. I will only be known by the sorrow that cuts my heart." - Codex entry: Untranslatable Elven Writing

 

The part about being trapped could refer to the Veil and the change brought about on the world.