4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Gwydden]

You know, Solas is my least favorite companion in DAI. Not because of anything he's done or because I dislike him or anything like that. I just find him uninteresting, especially when compared to pretty much everyone else.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

@Illyria:  No need to apologize.  I don't take offense at very much.  You're passionate and that is good.  It is only "wrong" - I would argue - when someone is trying to censure others passions that oppose them.  You were not trying to do that I don't feel. 

 

I honestly did not see anywhere where Solas genuinely questions where he has the right to kill all of modern Thedas.  All he says is:  "I have to."  For me... that's a load of crap.  And certainly not an answer you give someone you respect or call a friend.

 

Sociopaths can logically know they are supposed to "feel bad" and are capable of saying: "I feel bad." when their actions say anything but.

 

Solas isn't even passionate like the Doctor tends to be when he goes off the deep end... he's cold and calculating and rational and still decides killing everything for his own agenda is perfectly reasonable.  If I recall correctly - he's pushed pretty far when he becomes Timelord Victorious (throughout the entire season if I recall correctly). 

 

Also - if I had seen Solas do one thing like the Doctor has done in his many long years in story... to sacrifice himself for other people - then perhaps I would see him as varied.  Appealing to some ancient tale that is told to me by someone who has been lying to me since I met him... where he conveniently plays the hero... is not enough for me. 

 

Again... psychopaths and sociopaths are amazing liars and often convince others they are the "nice, quiet neighbor next door."

 

- The Inquisitor would not need saving if Solas hadn't tried to kill him/her first.  It's even worse (for me) that the Inquisitor was just "collateral" damage.

 

Also... nothing that was done to the Inqusitor was done to him/her for "the greater good" - it was simply Solas taking advantage of opportunities that arose after his initial plan when awry.  DA:I would not have happened if Solas wasn't trying to destroy the modern world.

 

NOTE:  I am currently good friends with Solas with my Lavellan playthrough.... "I" know what Solas is going to do to my Lavellan... and I know that my Lavellan will be pretty crushed that a person he thought was his friend does to him was Solas has done.

 

It's a shame... someone was saying how Solas doesn't have someone to ground him.... my Lavellan is standing right there.  It is Solas' fault for deciding to remain detached.

 

If I carry this character as my main into any story where Solas is involved... he will try to stop Solas without killing him, but he will never see Solas as a friend again.

 

My friends don't lie to me their entire lives... put me in danger for their own agendas... and then require me to drag them from their own self-destructive tendencies.  To me... that's a poisonous person only dragging me down.

 

Solas and Lavellan romance remind of Hunter Zolomon / Zoom and Earth-1 Caitlin Snow from Season 2 of The Flash.

 

There is a lot of psychopath / sociopath - naive girl romance element in there.

 

But Weekes wrote it differently ? Yeah, in the same way Gaider wrote Morrigan to be someone as well. It does not stop players from rightfully concluding that Morrigan is a sperm jacker and Solas to be someone who wants to instigate mass murder.

 

 

@Illyria:  If you can see the mechanics of fiction - it is not very good fiction.  

 

It is not that he absolutely lied like a mustache twirling villain... he tells you his entire plan at the beginning of the game, he just leaves out that he can do what he's talking about.  

 

I believe his perspective is skewed beyond use.  Unlike Flemythal... he has not dealt with his issues.  Destroying the entire world is not, for me, an okay way to work out your problems of letting go.  Flemythal went through much of the same as Solas... yet, she has never yet mentioned anything about destroying the world.  In fact, she goes out of her way to save it... and, I believe there's a lot of evidence that she planned for Solas' return with Morrigan who is going to be key in defeating Solas (for those of us that don't talk him down).  

 

So... Solas and Flemythal... one of them I see as a wise ancient being who has lived countless generations and is more, to me, like Dr. Who by miles.  And the other - is the same being that sacrificed the ancient world for his own agendas (we can discuss casting world altering spells that you don't know the outcome of... and their merit... at some other juncture if you wish).  They've both experienced the same ancient elven wonders... and one of them was even the victim of murder... and yet, she ends up being the patient and wise one who doesn't blow up Conclaves of people for her agendas. 

 

I think he absolutely believes everything he's saying... but that doesn't mean that I, or my characters, have to.  People believe their own lies all the time.  Yes, I know you're saying this is Patrick Weekes conveying info about the ancient world... I am saying I find that to be terrible technique because - as you pointed out - it relies on the "meta" to be examined. 

 

And - of course - ultimately, even if I found out that Solas is right about everything... I'm not going to say:  "Well geeze... guess we should destroy modern Thedas." So ultimately - he'll be a monster in any situation other than standing down and depowering permanently... because I could never, in good conscience, let someone who was about to destroy the world but just happens to change his mind today... walk away. 

 

NOTE:  I'm curious... if the Veil never existed, why do ancient elven artifacts to measure it dot the landscape? 

 

Mythal has come to terms with the current state of the world, due to no small part of the betrayal she suffered at the hands of her Evanuris brethren for trying to do the right thing. In fact she even says :- "What was could not be changed."

 

Solas is nothing like that. In fact, it is Mythal who is more like Dr.Who. She is even sympathetic to the Dalish Elves whereas Solas outright sees both the Dalish and City Elves as not his people.

 

 

Good grief... my point is, you guys are saying that you're basing your understanding of the entire scene (Trespasser) on "story mechanics" and not what is said.  You're not basing it on the story being told... you're basing it on knowledge Patrick Weekes is telling you outside of the story.  If that's what you think is good writing - I can't change it - but it isn't.  I'll be happy to entertain the company of any literary critics you wish to send my way and have this very discussion with them.

 

@Illyria:  You admitted yourself... if you weren't reading this "as a story" - you could consider Solas a liar.  I'm sorry... but if I were to write something, I wouldn't want you to read it "as a story".  Sure, I can critique a story mechanically as well... but I don't consider that the same as reading a story.  Again.. you may, I can't change that. 

 

This. If we just ignore what Weekes said and focused solely on what Solas says in the game, you would reach a very different conclusion. I made that mistake before by just focusing on what Weekes said instead of listening to what was actually in game.

 

Perhaps Patrick is lying and misleading the audience. Bioware developers are known for the love of fan tears. So instead of believing in what Weekes says about Solas, which can be subject to change in DA4 for all we know, its best to rely on in-game dialogue.

 

 

*shrugs*

 

I have changed my Lavellan canon to Josie, though.

 

Well, Josie > Solas because Disney Princess > A Former Demigod Who Wants To Commit Mass Murder. So you made the right choice.

[Sah291]

Did Weekes ever compare Solas to Dr. Who? I know he compared him once to a time lord, and must have had some inspiration from that universe in general....but that's not quite the same thing.

@Bayonet Hipshot,

I see your point, but there's really no need to base anything on meta knowledge about what Weekes has said... It's interesting and adds to the understanding of the character, but not really necessary. The in game lore itself supports the idea of Fen'Harel not being quite as black and white of a figure, and that is the impression reflected in codex entries since Origins.

If we are suspicious something about Solas is misleading, it's not because of Weekes intentionally lying or not...but because of the trickster archetype used.

It's true Solas tends not to outright lie, but he still very much falls into the "My Exact Words" trope, and does lie by ommission, or rather by letting you fall victim to your own (misleading) presuppositions. That's not a character you want to necessarily take at face value. But by the same token, a character like that is unpredictable, so we won't know how things will ultimately pan out until we see the rest of that story arc concluded.

[midnight tea]

Did Weekes ever compare Solas to Dr. Who? I know he compared him once to a time lord, and must have had some inspiration from that universe in general....but that's not quite the same thing.

 

He didn't just compare him, in interview with Biofan he explicitly stated that Dr. Who was the initial basis for the character.

[Sah291]

He didn't just compare him, in interview with Biofan he explicitly stated that Dr. Who was the initial basis for the character.

Ok, thanks. I didn't know if he ever directly had, or if it was a comparison that came from the fan base.

[dawnstone]

Did Weekes ever compare Solas to Dr. Who? I know he compared him once to a time lord, and must have had some inspiration from that universe in general....but that's not quite the same thing.
 

 

Here's the interview where he talks about how the characters from DA have a basis in existing characters from other canons:

[Sah291]

That begs the question then... which is kind of the elephant in the room in my opinion... of whether the time magic we saw in DAI was just an isolated thing, or actually deeper foreshadowing. I always felt like In Hushed Whispers had parallels with Solas and gave a lot of context for his character.

[nightscrawl]

That begs the question then... which is kind of the elephant in the room in my opinion... of whether the time magic we saw in DAI was just an isolated thing, or actually deeper foreshadowing. I always felt like In Hushed Whispers had parallels with Solas and gave a lot of context for his character.

 

Can you explain your reasoning here? I'm usually focused on the whole Dorian/Alexius thing for that mission (I'm a huge Dorian fan, so I'm biased). Also, I've only taken Solas along a single time (my first play on release), so I have no recollection as to what he says when you find him in the cells.

[dawnstone]

That begs the question then... which is kind of the elephant in the room in my opinion... of whether the time magic we saw in DAI was just an isolated thing, or actually deeper foreshadowing. I always felt like In Hushed Whispers had parallels with Solas and gave a lot of context for his character.

I've seen people theorize that since they made it explicit that the time magic that Alexius used could only go back to the beginning of the Breach, that maybe Solas could be planning to attempt to rewind history to the making of the Veil itself based on the same principle. So, basically, none of the past 3700 years or so would have even have happened, just like what we did with the "Bad Future" in IHW. I really hate that theory, but since they decided to introduce time magic it's as valid as any other about his plans, atm.

[Sah291]

Can you explain your reasoning here? I'm usually focused on the whole Dorian/Alexius thing for that mission (I'm a huge Dorian fan, so I'm biased). Also, I've only taken Solas along a single time (my first play on release), so I have no recollection as to what he says when you find him in the cells.

He makes some interesting comments if you bring him along, that suggest (in retrospect) he may have some experience with time travel. He is very curious/interested in Alexius' research, and approves when you ask about it, and when you keep him on as an asset for the Inquisiton.

But I'm thinking more in how his character compares to the Inquisitor's role in that quest--how they both are trying to go back to the past to prevent a bad future from occuring (as they see it), how they don't see the alternate future world as "real" and how detached they are from it, unable to relate to the suffering the characters in that world went through, like Leliana who tells the Inquisitor that the past year was real to her.

Solas' aloofness is very characteristic of someone detached from linear time like that. What seems like arrogance to us, is the perspective of someone who sees time very differently, and might know the future--or a possible future.

Also like Alexius, he is character unable to come to terms with loss, and accept the death of his people. Alexius keeps hopelessly fighting against his son's fate, seemingly not aware or caring at the chaos he is creating in the process.

Mythal does have some aspects of this as well. She obviously has a talent for prophecy and seems to be able to see into the future to some extent.

[nightscrawl]

I've seen people theorize that since they made it explicit that the time magic that Alexius used could only go back to the beginning of the Breach, that maybe Solas could be planning to attempt to rewind history to the making of the Veil itself based on the same principle. So, basically, none of the past 3700 years or so would have even have happened, just like what we did with the "Bad Future" in IHW. I really hate that theory, but since they decided to introduce time magic it's as valid as any other about his plans, atm.

But... how would he accomplish that? The Breach was an open connection to the Fade, which is what I assume enabled the time travel to occur. But the Veil is currently in place, and now the Breach is sealed. How would that plan actually work?

[midnight tea]

I've seen people theorize that since they made it explicit that the time magic that Alexius used could only go back to the beginning of the Breach, that maybe Solas could be planning to attempt to rewind history to the making of the Veil itself based on the same principle. So, basically, none of the past 3700 years or so would have even have happened, just like what we did with the "Bad Future" in IHW. I really hate that theory, but since they decided to introduce time magic it's as valid as any other about his plans, atm.

 

The only thing I can see that plot point introduce was the possibility that in the Veiled world time was more....flexible?, perhaps its perception was slower or faster (hence ancient beings lived in sort of sped-up time, which is why every mortal being for them was a quickling) but it's one thing to say that and another that past thousands of years could just be re-winded. I mean, why would Solas go through all the effort to create a Veil instead of go back in time to undo the Evanuris back when they were forming? Why does Mythal claims that "what was could not be changed"?

[Medhia_Nox]

Solas' aloofness is very characteristic of someone detacted from linear time like that. What seems like arrogance to us, is the perspective of someone who sees time very differently, and might know the future--or a possible future.
 

 

We can't really know what a person that sees time in a non-linear fashion would think like.  

 

Someone who can see multiple strands of time... might actively protect the the linear path mortals follow (for example) instead of being detached and aloof and seemingly arrogant. 

 

I think his detachment is because he was in a 3000 year old coma and is experiencing extreme shock. 

[nightscrawl]

I mean, why would Solas go through all the effort to create a Veil instead of go back in time to undo the Evanuris back when they were forming? Why does Mythal claims that "what was could not be changed"?

It could be that he sees the error was in creating the Veil in the first place, rather than dealing with the evanuris in some other way, so he wants to correct that mistake. Of course, isn't he going to have to deal with the evanuris anyway if he brings down the Veil? Aren't they, you know, still there? Does he want to kill them while they're still woozy and weak, as he was when he first awoke?

[dawnstone]

But... how would he accomplish that? The Breach was an open connection to the Fade, which is what I assume enabled the time travel to occur. But the Veil is currently in place, and now the Breach is sealed. How would that plan actually work?

I honestly have no idea, I just said it was a theory some people tout, not that I particularly wanted to delve its mysterious allure.

[Sah291]

We can't really know what a person that sees time in a non-linear fashion would think like.  
 
Someone who can see multiple strands of time... might actively protect the the linear path mortals follow (for example) instead of being detached and aloof and seemingly arrogant. 
 
I think his detachment is because he was in a 3000 year old coma and is experiencing extreme shock.

No we can't know exactly, but looking at common themes in other time travel stories.. It's possible he might have needed the anchor for that, in order to act as a focus and...well...anchor.

In DA2, Mythal describes herself as being adrift. Maybe it was like that for him. Unconscious and lost in the fade, dreaming. What can happen to a Dreamer who gets lost in the fade was also foreshadowed in DA2.

[Sah291]

The only thing I can see that plot point introduce was the possibility that in the Veiled world time was more....flexible?, perhaps its perception was slower or faster (hence ancient beings lived in sort of sped-up time, which is why every mortal being for them was a quickling) but it's one thing to say that and another that past thousands of years could just be re-winded. I mean, why would Solas go through all the effort to create a Veil instead of go back in time to undo the Evanuris back when they were forming? Why does Mythal claims that "what was could not be changed"?

Well I don't know, but that's another common theme in time travel stories... The idea of fate, and reality adjusting for it, no matter how many times you try to go back to change things. Maybe Mythal accepts it was meant to happen and cannot be changed.

Is reality fixed (predestined) or malleable? That's a huge theme in DA, in everything from Templars vs Mages, to Solas and the Veil, etc. Considering the story of Inquisiton kind of seems inspired by the Reformation, a bit, it makes sense.

[dawnstone]

Well I don't know, but that's another common theme in time travel stories... The idea of fate, and reality adjusting for it, no matter how many times you try to go back to change things. Maybe Mythal accepts it was meant to happen and cannot be changed.

Is reality fixed (predestined) or malleable? That's a huge theme in DA, in everything from Templars vs Mages, to Solas and the Veil, etc. Considering the story of Inquisiton kind of seems inspired by the Reformation, a bit, it makes sense.

But doesn't she straight up say at one point to Morrigan, "Things happened that were never meant to happen; Alas, so long as the music plays, we dance." That sounds like someone who does not necessarily accept it, but cannot yet fully exert control over the situation. The music she's referencing, may have to do with that - check out this post about harmonics and the nature of the Veil, if you haven't. Whatever Solas did to create the Veil, seems to have something to do with either repelling or cancelling out the harmonization between the Fade and the Waking World, creating what has been referred to as the "song that was sundered" by Cole to Varric.   

 

Whoops, forgot to add the link. XD

Modifié par dawnstone, 25 avril 2016 - 04:41 .

[Sah291]

But doesn't she straight up say at one point to Morrigan, "Things happened that were never meant to happen; Alas, so long as the music plays, we dance." That sounds like someone who does not necessarily accept it, but cannot yet fully exert control over the situation. The music she's referencing, may have to do with that - check out this post about harmonics and the nature of the Veil, if you haven't. Whatever Solas did to create the Veil, seems to have something to do with either repelling or cancelling out the harmonization between the Fade and the Waking World, creating what has been referred to by as the "song that was sundered" by Cole to Varric.   
 
Whoops, forgot to add the link. XD

Well I suppose she may not like that it happened and may be bitter about it, and want revenage for it even... But still accept it is impossible to change, whereas Solas has hope it still can be.

We don't really know.

Or maybe it was people meddling with fate too much in the first place that angered her. And that is why it wasn't "meant" to happen. But it has, and she has no choice but to dance to the music now.

Mythal's murder must have changed her somehow I think. We know she merged with Flemeth, a mortal. We could compare that to the struggle Anders had to endure and how that changed Justice.

Mythal was also a figure who represented justice, and according to Solas, the difference between justice and vengeance mattered to her followers. That getting lost over time could be one of the points Abelas (or whoever wrote the ancient elven codex in the Temple of Mythal) makes about the younger servants not understanding fully what Mythal was.

[roselavellan]

But... how would he accomplish that? The Breach was an open connection to the Fade, which is what I assume enabled the time travel to occur. But the Veil is currently in place, and now the Breach is sealed. How would that plan actually work?

 

Doesn't Solas want to remove the Veil altogether? (Plus there's Sandal's prophecy). Doing so would then enable time travel then, I assume?

[maia0407]

As a girl I have to answer the initial question with: I have no idea. Solas is an interesting character, but he is also very creepy imo. He prefers his spiritual dream world to the 'real' (for lack of a better word) world and spirits to living beings. Ad I tend to play rougish characters and they don't fit with Solas personality.
So I like him as a character, because he is complicated and mysterious, but as a woman I can safely say, that I'm not interested in romancing him.

Creepy!? Whatever could you mean? It's not like he stalks you in fade dreams after breaking your heart and your arm! Oh, wait!

Still, I love me some creepy Solas!

[Vanilka]

As a girl I have to answer the initial question with: I have no idea. Solas is an interesting character, but he is also very creepy imo. He prefers his spiritual dream world to the 'real' (for lack of a better word) world and spirits to living beings. Ad I tend to play rougish characters and they don't fit with Solas personality.

So I like him as a character, because he is complicated and mysterious, but as a woman I can safely say, that I'm not interested in romancing him.

 

I admit I feel the same. While I find Solas to be a well-written and interesting character, I don't see the romantic appeal, either. In fact, I don't see it so much that I don't know why even my Lavellan should be into him. (Given that's surely heavily influenced by my personal tastes.) The fact he seems to spend so much more time in and dealing with the Fade than dealing with and enjoying the real world, the fact he almost never tells us anything personal, almost nothing about himself, how very distant he seems most of the time, all that is a huge deal breaker for me. (Thus I've had even my elfy elf go for another character, a character that's pretty much the exact opposite of that - very personal, talks about his family, his past, is very honest, etc.) It also bothers me that Solas just crawls into the Inquisitor's head as he pleases, with no warning, no permission. I find that creepy. Knowing what his romance is about now, I also don't think I'd have patience for all the drama. Even while roleplaying, the idea that my character should dwell on the relationship so much and for so long past their confusing break-up seems frustrating to me. I'm not very good with this sort of stuff, I suppose.

 

As a character? I like him. He's quite interesting and I'm curious about his further development. As a romance, not my cup of tea.

 

However, I think other people in this thread gave good reasons why he's interesting for them. I don't feel the same, but I've got to say that it's been nice reading through it. This thread has been pretty cool to read through in general.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

We can't really know what a person that sees time in a non-linear fashion would think like.

Someone who can see multiple strands of time... might actively protect the the linear path mortals.

If you played the Ocarina of time i think you may have an idea of how you can percieve a different timeline with the Protagonist.

[midnight tea]

Well I don't know, but that's another common theme in time travel stories... The idea of fate, and reality adjusting for it, no matter how many times you try to go back to change things.

 

Maybe Mythal accepts it was meant to happen and cannot be changed.

 

Well, here's the thing... we have Weekes speaking against this trope:

 

Spoiler

 

Also - I don't think Mythal meant it that way. She didn't say "cannot be changed', she specifically spoke in past tense.

 

 

 

Is reality fixed (predestined) or malleable? That's a huge theme in DA, in everything from Templars vs Mages, to Solas and the Veil, etc. Considering the story of Inquisiton kind of seems inspired by the Reformation, a bit, it makes sense.

 

Well yes, but it's a different thing to say if reality is malleable and inspired by thing like Reformation and whether or not we can just erase thousands of years of existence by turning back time.

 

In any case - if we're talking about a scenario where wide-scale erasure does occur I'm far more inclined to believe that it has to do with wiping memory than time. Fade is all about memory after all, and we know for a fact that knowledgeable/powerful people and spirits can modify it (Solas can make Cole forget things, and Nightmare literally steals memories of PCs in first minutes of the game, making them completely unable to recall the events at the Conclave until they collected them all in raw Fade). That and I'd say that - aside from mortal memory being short and a possible effect of the Veil - sometimes it almost seems as if someone or something is actively working for people to forget about the past as much as it's possible.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Donquijote:  No human has ever... or will ever... experience time in a non-linear fashion and still remain human.

 

Any fictional representations are simply theory-craft on what it might seem like... and one of them may be right, but there's no way to discuss such a thing.  

 

Edit:  As for Mr. Weekes... I find his "I can change time with spitfire and gumption" to be rather puerile.  

 

Discussions on time travel are mostly for children (or for simply fun and fiction)... you cannot go back.  You cannot change what you've done.  Ever.  Acting like you can erase your mistakes or failures is for ignorant fools who don't want to be responsible to begin with.