4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Donquijote and 59 others]

@Donquijote:  No human has ever... or will ever... experience time in a non-linear fashion and still remain human.

 

Any fictional representations are simply theory-craft on what it might seem like... and one of them may be right, but there's no way to discuss such a thing.  

 

Edit:  As for Mr. Weekes... I find his "I can change time with spitfire and gumption" to be rather puerile.  

 

Discussions on time travel are mostly for children (or for simply fun and fiction)... you cannot go back.  You cannot change what you've done.  Ever.  Acting like you can erase your mistakes or failures is for ignorant fools who don't want to be responsible to begin with.

That's what i meant with representations,the fact that the protagonist is in a different timeline is something that give to the players a  new perception of reality you don't need to effectively travel in time as a person to understand the concept.

[IllustriousT]

No human has ever... or will ever... experience time in a non-linear fashion and still remain human.

 

 

Aww....there goes my dream of becoming the Doctor's companion.

 

 

 

 

[Sah291]

Well, here's the thing... we have Weekes speaking against this trope:
 

Spoiler

 
Also - I don't think Mythal meant it that way. She didn't say "cannot be changed', she specifically spoke in past tense.

Well, he may disagree or dislike the idea, but that doesn't rule out writing about it, and having characters who might believe that way, and who may or may not be challenged or proven wrong.

The conflict between world views regarding change is a big theme of DA, and was a big part of Solas' characterization. He now believes the Veil was a mistake, because of the unintended consequences, etc. During the events of DAI, he is both pessimistic and fatalistic.

But I have to agree. The "don't change anything" trope sucks all the fun out of time travel stories.

[Medhia_Nox]

Aww....there goes my dream of becoming the Doctor's companion.

 

 

 

 

 

I know I sound like an enormous jackass trying to throw a wet blanket over everything... but sitting around in a fairy tale dream justifying Solas' intentions based off of whimsy that simply can't happen and is counterproductive to mature and responsible thinking is, for me, a really poor moral to be sharing.

[Sah291]

@Donquijote:  No human has ever... or will ever... experience time in a non-linear fashion and still remain human.
 

Sure you can... It's what humans do when they meditate, dream, or do other activities that stimulate right hemisphere functions of the brian, where perception of time seems to change or disappear.

But life wound be pretty messy if it were like that all the time, so it's probably a good thing our subconscious mind can't intrude on us 24/7. Imagine if life was like a waking dream all of the time. You'd have trouble knowing what was real and what wasn't (like in the Matrix). I imagine that's what it would feel like being stuck in the fade like Solas for a long time.

Of course I know that's not what you meant exactly. We don't literally have time machines that we can go back and tinker around with.

What we have are memories. And memories can be forgotten or altered in some circumstances.

So I have to agree with midnight tea-- we know Solas has already demonstrated the ability to take memories. Cole also has this ability, as did the Nightmare demon. That could be part of his plan.

[German Soldier]

 

 

it's just about finding a character compelling, which is obviously some sort of grave personal offense to some people.

 

 

The same thing could be mirrored against his fans

I realized from some posts here that some fans of the character are unable to accept that some people see Solas as a poor deluded person who is behaving into an extremely destructive manner and they don't see any remarkable or interesting feature in him,thus call those who severely dislike the character as persons who don't understand his writing with an air of self aggrandizing superiority.

 

@Gervaise.

 "he now seems such a lose canon because he has a myopic approach to life with supreme arrogance that he knows best, when he seems incapable of the sort of imagination that could anticipate alternative outcomes to the one he envisages and a very limited grasp of the history of the world since he entered uthenera".

 

This is what i think of Solas and is no less valid than what his fans claim him to be.

[midnight tea]

I know I sound like an enormous jackass trying to throw a wet blanket over everything...

 

Well then why do you do it anyway? Acknowledging it doesn't make it any better, in fact it only makes it look like it's a compulsion you can't help.

 

 but sitting around in a fairy tale dream justifying Solas' intentions based off of whimsy that simply can't happen and is counterproductive to mature and responsible thinking is, for me, a really poor moral to be sharing.

 

....I think you will sound like an enormous jackass for assuming that Illustrious was actually serious, or that it in any way facilitates a serious, deriding response. In fact, the response was about Doctor, yet you still managed to spin it into unreasonable Solas fangirling or something... I mean, talk about counterproductive to mature and responsible thinking: just assuming that people you respond to are somehow immature half-twits for daring to like a fictional character you don't, that you even make their lighthearted responses and jokes into a cheap and easy (and entirely unwarranted) shot that leads nowhere... other than perhaps your own self-validation, because what else?

[midnight tea]

 

The same thing could be mirrored against his fans

 

Sorry, but so far we predominantly see people cheaply attacking people who like him, way more than the other way around. You don't have to go anywhere farther than an example above.

 

 

I realized from some posts here that some fans of the character are unable to accept that some people see Solas as a poor deluded person who is behaving into an extremely destructive manner and they don't see any remarkable or interesting feature in him,thus call those who severely dislike the character as persons who don't understand his writing with an air of self aggrandizing superiority.

 

Wow, so much projection.

 

There were many people here or somewhere else who have expressed their dislike or mixed feelings towards character, yet people who like him manage to still discuss things with them and have little to no problems with their dislike.

 

You know why? Because, unlike some, those people aren't jackasses with self aggrandizing superiority complex.

[Lezio]

Personally, i genuinely belive, without malice, that Solas should have died in his time, much like Loghain should have died in his. They are very similiar in the way that they both are incredibly delusional, blinded people who are not willing to leave the past behind and instead keep living in it and digging it up, over and over again, at every chance they get. Hell, the fact that Solas shows little to no regret about Corypheus, while crying over what he has done centuries before, emphasizes, for me, just how disconnected he is from reality

 

So yeah, he's a fascinating character but i really don't like him much (and neither can i the understand the appeal of a romance with him, really) and, if given the choice to in future games, i will probably kill him because he's both powerful and dangerous

[midnight tea]

Personally, i genuinely belive, without malice, that Solas should have died in his time, much like Loghain should have died in his. They are very similiar in the way that they both are incredibly delusional, blinded people who are not willing to leave the past behind and instead keep living in it and digging it up, over and over again, at every chance they get. Hell, the fact that Solas shows little to no regret about Corypheus, while crying over what he has done centuries before, emphasizes, for me, just how disconnected he is from reality

 

Er... that's only logical. I mean, why would he regret Corypheus specifically when he thinks that both Corypheus and almost everything else that was bad that has happened to this world has stemmed from his actions? Context - it matters. And in that context, Corypheus is merely a drop in a sea of problems - a drop that he nevertheless risked his life (and all his plans) to stop when things turned dire. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@midnight tea:  Because I'm an enormous jackass.  Jeez... keep up.

 

Wow... Solas admits he's a genocidal maniac and he's all "complex" and "sorry" - I admit I'm a jackass and it's "shut up person who doesn't agree with my view!" 

 

Thank you... you actually agree with me about Solas - you just can't admit it.  

[German Soldier]

 

 

You know why? Because, unlike some, those people aren't jackasses with self aggrandizing superiority complex.

 

I don't know you tell me i merely making observations of several posts here when those claimed that @Mhedia was childish for some criticism of the character because Solas complexity is beyond understanding for us.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

@midnight tea:  Because I'm an enormous jackass.  Jeez... keep up.

 

Wow... Solas admits he's a genocidal maniac and he's all "complex" and "sorry" - I admit I'm a jackass and it's "shut up person who doesn't agree with my view!" 

 

Thank you... you actually agree with me about Solas - you just can't admit it.  

 

Love makes one blind.

[midnight tea]

@midnight tea:  Because I'm an enormous jackass.  Jeez... keep up.

 

Wow... Solas admits he's a genocidal maniac and he's all "complex" and "sorry" - I admit I'm a jackass and it's "shut up person who doesn't agree with my view!" 

 

Wow... having problems distinguishing reality from fiction I see? Or do you view yourself as a fictional character, yo? Is this an admission that you're simply a troll?

 

Also - where did Solas admit that he's a genocidal maniac? I think he did this only in your head. Which, you know, since you have problems distinguishing fiction from reality... You'd better have that checked. Or maybe try and come up with more compelling argument than a simple strawman and equivocation fallacy.

[Lezio]

Er... that's only logical. I mean, why would he regret Corypheus specifically when he thinks that both Corypheus and almost everything else that was bad that has happened to this world has stemmed from his actions? Context - it matters. And in that context, Corypheus is merely a drop in a sea of problems - a drop that he nevertheless risked his life (and all his plans) to stop when things turned dire. 

 

Of course it's logical, but it's also completely indecent and inhuman. He "should" feel something about enabling Corypheus to kill and destroy many, many lives.... and yet he doesn't because he has a complete lack of empathy for the people that now inhabit the world he effectively created.

 

I could understand this if his plan was to go back in time and fix the past, like The Inquisitor did in "hushed whispers", because the pain and the suffering he directly and indirectly caused would just cease existing, but that's not really his plan from my understanding. He wants to wipe everything clean, destroying even more lives as he does so, because he feels he screwed in a remote past while completely ignoring the pain he caused, he's causing and he will cause in the near past, present and near future.

 

It's logical? Again, maybe. Does it take an incredible level of selective apathy and a general lack of decency? Yes, in my opinion

[midnight tea]

I don't know you tell me i merely making observations of several posts here when those claimed that @Mhedia was childish for some criticism of the character because Solas complexity is beyond understanding for us.

 

Medhia IS childish. Just look above - he fully admitted for being a jackass and guess what: his actions and words are congruous with it. Pointing out the obvious is hardly treating anyone with self aggrandizing superiority. He reaps what he sows.

[midnight tea]

Of course it's logical, but it's also completely indecent and inhuman. He "should" feel something about enabling Corypheus to kill and destroy many, many lives.... and yet he doesn't because he has a complete lack of empathy for the people that now inhabit the world he effectively created.

 

This statement is entirely untrue. Not only Solas makes many empathetic comments towards people he was supposed to already condemned, he showers Inquisitor with approval every time they decide to help people with their woes and commends them for it. So I' not sue where do you get this "lack of empathy" from. Plus the fact that he feels for anyone across the vast ocean of time who suffered because of his actions, not just recently, kinda speaks in his favor rather than against him.

 

 

 

 

I could understand this if his plan was to go back in time and fix the past, like The Inquisitor did in "hushed whispers", because the pain and the suffering he directly and indirectly caused would just cease existing, but that's not really his plan from my understanding. He wants to whipe everything clean because he feels he screwed in a remote past while completely ignoring the pain he caused, he's causing and he will cause in the present.

 

It's logical? Again, maybe. Does it take an incredible level of selective apathy and a general lack of decency? Yes, in my opinion

 

First: we don't yet know the details of his plan.

 

Second: I don't understand how traveling in time and wiping everything clean is different from the plan you condemn. Either way the pain would simply cease existing.

[German Soldier]

Of course it's logical, but it's also completely indecent and inhuman. He "should" feel something about enabling Corypheus to kill and destroy many, many lives.... and yet he doesn't because he has a complete lack of empathy for the people that now inhabit the world he effectively created.

 

 

That's one of the points,after Corypheus is defeated he didn't care at all for the victims or the victory he was only interested in the Orb as it it was a person.

[midnight tea]

Love makes one blind.

 

Yes, the love blinds me so much that I can't see past the general trollery and logical fallacies of crudest sort to see the truth offered to me by my Lord And Savior Medhia, who still tries to pry my soul from the deepest recesses my affection for Solas dragged me into!

 

Oh save me! 

[straykat]

Sometimes I make fun of this Solas romance and call it elven Twilight... but the truth is, most of the stories are like Twilight. Every Inquisitor is a Bella Swan, swept up in these big events, and people remark how you have that "something" that makes you special. Cullen does it too. Iron Bull sees it, but thinks you need to get away from it and humble yourself (regardless if you actually need to humble yourself). Cass is the Believer, but it doesn't get in the way too much, funnily.

 

But with Solas, it's more like Twilight because he's a timeless and mystical being.. much like vampires are. lol. And for someone like this to swoon over the Bella Swan of the story, there's a popularity to that. *I think*. That's my theory at least.

 

 

I wish there had been no Bella Swan in the first place though. The Inquisitor should have climbed up ranks and had a real job. Not simply be Special. I like games where you earn power more. Not games that are fascinated with the idea of empowerment..and get to the subject right away.

[midnight tea]

That's one of the points,after COrypheus is defeated he didn't care at all for teh victims or the victory he was only interested in the Orb as it it was a person.

 

Where do you get the "he didn't care at all for the victims of the victory"? He was visibly distraught and it's only Leliana that assumed that it was about the orb, when he actually takes his time to follow Inquisitor and watch his (now) former comrade mournfully. Then he wipes Cole's memory to prevent him from following him, to spare him from a ate he thinks will befall him which 'he wouldn't wish on an enemy' (and I'd like to remind that he sent his past enemies to suffer in eternal torment).

 

I mean, even in a scenario that he indeed focused only on lamenting the Orb doesn't yet tell us the full picture - what if he lamented its loss because it was the only way to save whomever he wants to save without taking even more drastic measures now? What if not just people he tries to save are doomed - what if everyone is doomed (Solas makes comments and hints in game as if something terrible is going to happen that is not related to his plans) and the orb was the only way to save anything, or save more people that he can save now, that he is without it? We don't know that yet. We only know that the orb was crucial to his plans - and his plans, or how or why he wants to follow through with it still remains quite an unknown.

[Medhia_Nox]

@midnight tea:  You can't be that obtuse to not know where Solas said that everyone is going to die... 

 

I wrote a response and deleted it.  I don't entertain fanatics.  

[Lezio]

This statement is entirely untrue. Not only Solas makes many empathetic comments towards people he was supposed to already condemned, he showers Inquisitor with approval every time they decide to help people with their woes and commends them for it. So I' not sue where do you get this "lack of empathy" from. Plus the fact that he feels for anyone across the vast ocean of time who suffered because of his actions, not just recently, kinda speaks in his favor rather than against him.

 

 

 

First: we don't yet know the details of his plan.

 

Second: I don't understand how traveling in time and wiping everything clean is different from the plan you condemn. Either way the pain would simply cease existing.

 

I admit i didn't use him much throughout the game but, hell, he doesn't even approve of giving the Dalish the history The Inquisitor finds in the Emerald Graves. Plus, if we go with the dialogues he actually has with a "friend" Inquisitor, he actually mentions that s/he is the exception, almost unique, not the standard and he actually refers to every other person in The Inquisition/World as petty and horrible. Again, selective apathy

 

The bolded part is kind of creepy By going back in time he would stop that pain from even existing, by killing everyone he would be..... killing everyone? Yeah, no pain either way..... but..... uh..... duh?   

[IllustriousT]

 

I wish there had been no Bella Swan in the first place though. The Inquisitor should have climbed up ranks and had a real job. Not simply be Special. I like games where you earn power more. Not games that are fascinated with the idea of empowerment..and get to the subject right away.

 

But...that would be like real life - and I already have one of those. So, no thanks...I like my escapism. 

[midnight tea]

Sometimes I make fun of this Solas romance and call it elven Twilight... but the truth is, most of the stories are like Twilight. Every Inquisitor is a Bella Swan, swept up in these big events, and people remark how you have that "something" that makes you special. Cullen does it too. Iron Bull sees it, but thinks you need to get away from it and humble yourself (regardless if you actually need to humble yourself). Cass is the Believer, but it doesn't get in the way too much, funnily.

 

But with Solas, it's more like Twilight because he's a timeless and mystical being.. much like vampires are. lol. And for someone like this to swoon over the Bella Swan of the story, there's a popularity to that. *I think*. That's my theory at least.

 

Do you see every gray thing and deem it an elephant? Because that's what you do here. This is nothing more than a simple equivocation fallacy - you see vague connections and think that it's enough to claim similitude. Never mind that Mayfly-December Romance existed long before Twilight... or Highlander... or even frikking Merlin and Nemeway from Arthurian legends.

 

 

I wish there had been no Bella Swan in the first place. The Inquisitor should have climbed up ranks and had a real job. Not simply be Special.

 

This is a topic for a different thread and I believe it has been discussed extensively, but I'd like to point out that even with a mark that has made Heralds a holy figure in eyes of many they still had to do exactly what you say they should and they've climbed the rank. They started as an Inquisition mascot, effectively taking side-jobs like some PR stunts and minor missions (aside form alliance, none of the missions in pre-Skyhold zones are absolutely crucial), only to get themselves landed on a position of Inquisitor after they managed to successfully get an alliance AND save people in Haven.