4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Addictress]

Maybe it was a matter of how he couldn't take it.
Coryphaeus also tried to remove the anchor (with the orb, no less) and he couldn't manage it. He said it was "soiled" or somesuch. Which may imply that the Inquisitor 'imprinted' on it somehow, making it useless to near everyone but his/herself.

For Solas to remove it, there seemed to be something of a preparation for it (maybe. I could be wrong). There was that green light explosion near the elvhen tower at the beginning at the DLC, and several reactions toward magical artifacts as the story progressed. He also said "luring you here gave me the chance to save you", which may imply that something about the crossroads, or the events within them, may have had a hand in making the anchor removable. But this is all conjecture.

Solas in Trespasser does point to the anchor specifically - " I would have used the mark you now bear"

:/

But it seems he knew of a way to get another one from the orb. Not all was lost in spoiling that anchor. And that's why he needed the orb

[Xerrai]

Solas in Trespasser does point to the anchor specifically - " I would have used the mark you now bear"

:/

But it seems he knew of a way to get another one from the orb. Not all was lost in spoiling that anchor. And that's why he needed the orb

Maybe. But I guess that would also mean Corypheaus was mal-informed on the matter, seeing as how he was intent on stealing the anchor back even though he already had the orb.

 

But the orb being capable of making another anchor does make a lot of sense. Seeing as how it was how the anchor was created in the first place and how his plan was never reliant on any potential anchor-wielder surviving.

[Addictress]

Maybe. But I guess that would also mean Corypheaus was mal-informed on the matter, seeing as how he was intent on stealing the anchor back even though he already had the orb.

But the orb being capable of making another anchor does make a lot of sense. Seeing as how it was how the anchor was created in the first place and how his plan was never reliant on any potential anchor-wielder surviving.

Corypheus does end up kinda figuring out how to churn out another anchor from the orb. That's what the boss fight at the end of DAI was all about. But it took him all that R&D time from Haven until the Arbor Wilds.

[midnight tea]

 

-A fact that's a fact and not a speculation

yes my fact(and not assumption)is flawed according to your own flawed perspective and is more valuable because is a fact,anchor first explosion later.

 

 

Eh, spoilered for lengtht:

 

Spoiler

So a fact is a fact... or is that fact YOUR fact? Sorry, but just saying "my fact is more valuable because is a fact, anchor first explosion later" a fact does not make. You can't make statements like that and then accuse others of arrogance or risible logic.

 

It's even more baffling that you base your argument based on a sequence of events while *completely* ignoring the fact that what comes directly BEFORE your favorite sequence is Inquisitor interrupting the ritual. You can't just accept one fact and ignore another.

 

And that's not just the end of it - you completely ignore that if it wasn't for Justinia, it's highly possible that Inquisitor and the Mark would disappear in the Fade, making the fact that the Anchor/rift they fell in prevented them from dying in initial explosion obsolete. You completely ignore the fact that the Anchor was eating up the Herald and it was only with the direct help of Solas as well as semi-closing of the rift that spawned the Breach that they prevented the Anchor from eating them further, until the events of Trespasser, making the survivability of Corypheus (or the body that was marked) even more questionable *even if* he got the Mark.

 

And then you completely ignore that your assumption that Anchor is bestowed prior to explosion is entirely not what Orb's owner and possible creator thought would happen - you simply assume Solas was stupid that way, not to mention completely don't take into account all the extraordinary things that led to that particular event.

Not only that, Solas is very clear in Trespasser that ultimately he would be the only one who would be able to wield the Anchor an survived it - that likely excludes other ancient elves or beings like him. It WAS his personalized Orb and we see clearly how it eventually eats up Inquisitor without his direct help. Therefore your earlier assumption that "he was stupid, because he didn't think people who thinks are garbage are able to wield the Mark" is also highly questionable, since obviously Solas doesn't think ANYONE but him could wield and survive it, and what happened in the Temple was a freak event of cosmic proportions.

 

Additionally Justina was sucked into the fade thus dodged the explosion she was not invested by it that's why she survived,that she survived isn't proof of anything.

 

I'd like to remind you that it's you who position that it was the Anchor that has directly protected the one who wields it. Those were YOUR words. And then suddenly you shrug off the fact that Justinia "got sucked into the Fade" and survived, when your own argument hinges on a fact that you claim that the Anchor was the reason for Inky's survival and would do the same to Cory too? Also - how come he hadn't got sucked into the Fade?

 

Plus - what does it mean she was "not invested by it"?

 

And since the cutscene where we see Orb exploding is - despite your claim - not 100% clear WHEN the Anchor hopped on Inky's hand, it is totally within the realm of possibility that the violent explosion opened the rift the Breach has spawned in split second, Inky and Justinia got gobbled by it before they could feel the effects of the and THEN, in subsequent chaos, the Anchor was bestowed. Since we never clearly see when Inky gets a Mark on their hand you cannot exclude that possibility, which also puts in question 'your' alleged "fact".

 

Like at this point i have to dismiss you and your arrogance entirely,calling those who disagree with you as childish or laugh at them for this or that on their own statements while your logic is even more risible than theirs.

 

it would be better to start to come down from the pedestal for the so called Solas "experts"

 

Huh, talk about rampant confirmation bias... Like, really? You're going to call people arrogant for occasionally deeming someone's arguments as wrong or disagreeing on certain matters as apparent arrogance? Like we're just walking over people and make unsubstantiated statements like "you're wrong/blind/laugh-inducing!" instead of usually making effort after effort to make it as civil and productive discussion a possible, writing arguments an citing evidence for our claims or why we think someone is wrong, until either we reach consensus, have an interesting discussion or, on some occasion, become frustrated with people for whatever reason?

 

Not to mention that it happens in a thread where apparent "Solas experts" at best call someone childish (for demonstrably being so) or dare to be somewhat snarky or humorous on occasion, while things flying from other direction are as cute as "fanatic" or "obsessive fangirls blinded by love", aside from highly questionable arguments that can be easily dismantled no matter if someone likes or dislikes Solas...

 

You'd better check just how high you're sitting before you start criticizing people you collectively deride as "Solas experts". Don't let that space debris hit you.

[midnight tea]

Solas in Trespasser does point to the anchor specifically - " I would have used the mark you now bear"

:/

But it seems he knew of a way to get another one from the orb. Not all was lost in spoiling that anchor. And that's why he needed the orb

 

Yes, but he said it in a context of "What would happen if Cory died and you recovered the orb... and I never meddled with Cory's ritual and got the Mark for myself?". So yes, he would use the Mark Inky now bears... if they themselves wouldn't get in the way of it.

 

But since they do, it appears to be impossible - we know nothing of Solas even attempting to remove the Mark from Inky in base game, Corypheus tries and fails and deems it 'permanent' and Justinia claims that Mark is now a part of them, which is further evidenced by a fact that when the Anchor finally comes off, it does so with a big chunk of their own arm - and that's only after application of powerful magic that prevented them from possibly fully disintegrating...

 

In fact, we don't even really know what Solas has done - is the Anchor really, truly gone in its entirety? Was is in fact deactivated and is now dormant? Is there some residual magic? 

 

I mean, from the way Trespasser played out it seems that the Anchor was indeed entirely useless for Solas - he wasn't clapping his hands and being all "FINALLY! The Anchor's mine!!". The only thing that mattered appears to be him making it harmless. I assume similar thing would happen if he in fact managed to retrieved the Orb - the Mark itself would be useless for him.

 

And it truly is a question whether he'd use the orb to recreate it or in fact do what he planned after he somehow managed to retrieve the intact orb from Cory. For me it seems that his initial plan got thrown out of the window the moment the Conclave has exploded - he probably was mostly interested in securing the Orb as a source of power, not necessarily as a source of new Anchor. That magic appeared to have been very specific, if not experimental. After all, who would need the Mark to cross the Veil in a Veilless world? I mean, unless there was indeed more application to it and Morrigan was right when see said that it's possible that the Anchor may allow for Inquisitor to one day open the gates to Black City, hmmmm....

[midnight tea]

Corypheus does end up kinda figuring out how to churn out another anchor from the orb. That's what the boss fight at the end of DAI was all about. But it took him all that R&D time from Haven until the Arbor Wilds.

 

Well no, not really - he knows enough to wield Orb's power to certain extent and make it re-open the Breach, but I haven't seen any Anchor or him claiming that he's made one. In fact a large portion of the game is spent informing us that since Corypheus has lost the Anchor he tries to find different ways to the Fade, which included a trip to Mythal's Temple for Well of Sorrows.

 

Even in future Redcliffe, a full year after Inky's alleged 'disintegration" and him effectively ruling the realm the Venatori who tortures Leliana keeps asking her how come the Herald knew about what Cory was planning for the Conclave. And Alexius keeps being forced to try and revert time back before the Conclave to prevent Inky disrupting the rite, instead of Cory just crating a new one, despite all the resources he had at his disposal.

 

It seems to me that Anchor was indeed a one-of-a-kind spell that required possibly A LOT of preparations and was possibly very delicate (Cory claims that Inky has disrupted what was years in the planning), which is probably why the effect of disturbing it were possibly so violent and unexpected.

[Donk]

I don't see what is complicated here.

If you have no brain cells chances are you love Sera.

If you have too much brain cells and love complicated = Solas

All the in between = all the rest, take your pick.

See, done.

*fart noise*

[maia0407]

I'm going to veer away from the current debate as I've had something on my mind for awhile now regarding Solas. My thoughts are circling around themes of redemption, justice, punishment, motivation and why I still adore Solas even knowing what he plans while I just can't stomach Blackwall after learning about his crimes. We've touched on the subject of redemption several times in this thread and danced around the issue of motives being a mitigating factor when judging a persons actions. Before posting this I looked up articles about these issues and, to be honest, the philosophical ethics articles I found put me to sleep. Drool may or may not have been involved. I'm in the middle of medical treatments that are making my brain a bit fuzzy and I'd just rather casually discuss these issues with you guys. So bear with me as I don't feel very organized with my thoughts right now but here goes:

I'm having some cognitive dissonance when I think about why I come down so hard on Blackwall for his crimes but I'm more willing to forgive Solas. I think I'm more understanding of Solas as I find his motives to be more pure or less selfish than Blackwall; although, his actions resulted in more people being harmed than Blackwalls. Additionally, his original act of putting up the veil was out of a desire to help his people and, he says, to prevent a worse outcome. However, his current goals appear, on the surface, to be more selfish as he states that he wants to simply restore his people. He also states that he's choosing the best option among bad. Since I don't know all the options he's choosing from, I'm forced to reserve judgment. With Blackwall we know the full extent of his crimes and the outcome so it's easier to judge.

Blackwall's crimes were motivated by greed. Although he didn't know that children would be murdered when he planned his crime, he didn't try to stop the carnage when he did know. I think it's the motives that really get to me and make it hard for me to sympathize with Blackwall. However, I have to take into account the scale of the crime; Blackwall had less victims. Solas is also willing to harm a lot of people *again* but we don't know all the reasons why and it hasn't happened yet. There's also the issue of Blackwall not turning himself in sooner and allowing his men to take the fall for him. (Not that his men are innocents by any means). His claims of reform ring a bit hollow when he stole an identity and waited until a man was about to be hanged to step forward. He still seems a bit self serving.

So, we have the ideas of motives, the scale of the crimes, the willingness to take responsibility for actions, and the possibility of committing crimes again as factors in our judgment of these characters.

There's another huge issue at play and that is: is it ever justified to commit an act with the possibility of major casualties if you know that inaction will lead to a worse fate? I'm having a hard time with this question regarding Solas as he's hinted that this is the case for him. But again, were operating blind as to what is really going on. Is acting for the greater good a mitigating factor? I guess it depends on who is defining the greater good. Terrorist groups perceive their goals as being for a greater good. Western countries consider the innocent casualties of fighting these groups as a greater good. Acts on these scales approach a different level of complexity than an act of murder for money. Depending on whose eyes you are looking through, a terrorist act can be perceived as fighting back against an oppressive power or as an unjustified assault on innocents.

And what about punishment? I'm against the death penalty and will try to save lives when possible. I'm also more for the idea of rehabilitation if possible and locking away a person that can't be rehabbed and is still a danger. Are these ideas compatible with justice, though? I've seen people that say they want various characters to suffer. I admit, I was so disgusted with Blackwall that I wanted to leave him to rot and suffer in jail. But, I didn't. Does justice require an element of punishment and suffering to be justice? I lean toward 'no' but I also know if my loved ones were harmed I'd probably feel differently. It's easy to take gleeful pleasure at the thought of a rapist getting a taste of it in prison. I believe that emotional response is wrong, though. I don't agree with vigilante justice as it's usually based on emotions and can lead to barbaric responses; we need a system that metes out civilized logical justice. Again, does justice include an element of suffering for the criminal or is it about preventing more crime and rehab? All three? What purpose does suffering serve? Does it prevent others from committing crimes (debatable) or does it make us feel better?

As to redemption, I've seen people say 'so and so' doesn't deserve redemption. At what point does a crime become so great that redemption is undeserved? On first thought, I didn't care much for redemption. As an atheist, it seemed more like a religious concept to get into heaven that doesn't apply to me. It also seemed like a way to make the criminal feel better and that idea didn't line up with my knee jerk reaction of let 'em rot. Upon reflection, though, allowing a person to add good to this world after taking away from it doesn't seem like a bad idea. It balances things out in a small way and hurts no one.

That's where I'm at with these two characters, Solas and Blackwall. I empathize with Solas' motives and deplore Blackwalls'. I also recognize that Solas has more victims and is willing to add to his body count. However, we don't know if his plan really is the best among bad options so there's room for doubt. I guess I'll have to wait for DA4 to see this play out. All of this could apply to Anders and almost every character in the game. Thoughts?

[nightscrawl]

Yes, the spirit confirms the Divine dies as the Inquisitor escapes the Fade the first time, when she gets left behind. 

 

I've never really understood part of this.

 

In the scene, we have the Divine surrounded by Grey Wardens, with Corypheus directly in front. When the PC intervenes, Corypheus lunges at them, but is too late and the explosion happens, bestowing the Anchor on the PC. The Divine gets sucked into the Fade along with the PC. Do Corypheus and the Wardens all die in the explosion? Why aren't he and the Wardens sucked into the Fade along with the Divine? The PC I can understand, since they're at ground zero and holding the orb, but not the Divine.

 

I'm assuming that Corypheus's soul can travel quite a distance away, so if he does indeed die he is resurrected again in the body of another Warden. That's all well and good.

 

But again, why is the Divine the only one of those extra people sucked into the Fade?

[Almostfaceman]

I've never really understood part of this.

 

In the scene, we have the Divine surrounded by Grey Wardens, with Corypheus directly in front. When the PC intervenes, Corypheus lunges at them, but is too late and the explosion happens, bestowing the Anchor on the PC. The Divine gets sucked into the Fade along with the PC. Do Corypheus and the Wardens all die in the explosion? Why aren't he and the Wardens sucked into the Fade along with the Divine? The PC I can understand, since they're at ground zero and holding the orb, but not the Divine.

 

I'm assuming that Corypheus's soul can travel quite a distance away, so if he does indeed die he is resurrected again in the body of another Warden. That's all well and good.

 

But again, why is the Divine the only one of those extra people sucked into the Fade?

 

That's not known. The only thing I can hypothesize is that it has something to do with the magic being cast. The Divine was the focus, and the spell was disrupted. 

 

We don't know what kind of old spells Corypheus was casting and we know even less about the ancient elven foci and the magic involved there. 

 

All we really know about the foci is that it's an artifact that is paired with Solas and that it can store and release vast amounts of magical power. 

[Addictress]

Yes, but he said it in a context of "What would happen if Cory died and you recovered the orb... and I never meddled with Cory's ritual and got the Mark for myself?". So yes, he would use the Mark Inky now bears... if they themselves wouldn't get in the way of it.

But since they do, it appears to be impossible - we know nothing of Solas even attempting to remove the Mark from Inky in base game, Corypheus tries and fails and deems it 'permanent' and Justinia claims that Mark is now a part of them, which is further evidenced by a fact that when the Anchor finally comes off, it does so with a big chunk of their own arm - and that's only after application of powerful magic that prevented them from possibly fully disintegrating...

In fact, we don't even really know what Solas has done - is the Anchor really, truly gone in its entirety? Was is in fact deactivated and is now dormant? Is there some residual magic?

I mean, from the way Trespasser played out it seems that the Anchor was indeed entirely useless for Solas - he wasn't clapping his hands and being all "FINALLY! The Anchor's mine!!". The only thing that mattered appears to be him making it harmless. I assume similar thing would happen if he in fact managed to retrieved the Orb - the Mark itself would be useless for him.

And it truly is a question whether he'd use the orb to recreate it or in fact do what he planned after he somehow managed to retrieve the intact orb from Cory. For me it seems that his initial plan got thrown out of the window the moment the Conclave has exploded - he probably was mostly interested in securing the Orb as a source of power, not necessarily as a source of new Anchor. That magic appeared to have been very specific, if not experimental. After all, who would need the Mark to cross the Veil in a Veilless world? I mean, unless there was indeed more application to it and Morrigan was right when see said that it's possible that the Anchor may allow for Inquisitor to one day open the gates to Black City, hmmmm....

Yah, it doesn't necessarily need to produce another similar anchor. I'm just theorizing (in Solas' hypothetical defense) the orb was more important to Solas than the anchor and his calculation of all the risks in his original old plan should have accounted for the anchor being accidentally wasted, since we saw the anchor was so easily accidentally bestowed on someone other than Solas. And the reason Solas accepted this risk in the first place is because he knew that in such a scenario, he'd just need the orb, for power or whatevs, provided Corypheus and whatever mortal touched it were dead or in the fade from the explosion. So yah. His only oversight was Corypheus and that mortal not dying.

[Addictress]

I've never really understood part of this.

In the scene, we have the Divine surrounded by Grey Wardens, with Corypheus directly in front. When the PC intervenes, Corypheus lunges at them, but is too late and the explosion happens, bestowing the Anchor on the PC. The Divine gets sucked into the Fade along with the PC. Do Corypheus and the Wardens all die in the explosion? Why aren't he and the Wardens sucked into the Fade along with the Divine? The PC I can understand, since they're at ground zero and holding the orb, but not the Divine.

I'm assuming that Corypheus's soul can travel quite a distance away, so if he does indeed die he is resurrected again in the body of another Warden. That's all well and good.

But again, why is the Divine the only one of those extra people sucked into the Fade?

Heh good point.

But the divine is the only individual in that area with tendrils of magical energy/light looping around her like bindings, connected to the orb. So that is something.

[straykat]

*fart noise*

 

Seriously.

[Lezio]

If you say that we don't know if he tried to find an alternative way to open it, don't claim that he didn't try to find an alternative to open it  In fact, how would he know that he was too weak to unlock it, if he didn't try it?
 
Also, I never claimed that Solas acted out of complete altruism - what I'm saying is that choosing to eliminate a supremacist group and their leader hell-bent on conquering the world is still a point FOR Solas, rather than against him, because of all groups or people he may have been able to chose to eliminate he actually picked one that actually was a genuine threat to pretty much everyone. You don't have to act completely altruistically to still make decisions that are beneficial rather than harmful to others, which seems to be Solas's chosen modus operandi.
 
Also - how do you know he didn't wait for his powers to go back? Where do you extrapolate that knowledge from? How do you know that he's not acting not out of impatience, but necessity, because something is coming and he's running out of time? I mean, the dude has spent THOUSANDS of years in the Fade, quiet as a mouse - you think he wouldn't wait a couple more centuries if he deemed it necessary?
 
Based on what we can see in the game I'm pretty sure there's either something coming, or there's a specific time frame (I predict that Solas needs some special celestial event for Things To Happen) that Solas is waiting for OR is himself running out of time. Among some other hints he did state to Varric, when the dwarf defended the Wardens, that for all the bad they did they did indeed buy "us" (as in, he counts himself in) some time, like there some sort of gruesome fate that awaits Thedas that is unrelated to his own plans. And given that we see eldritch horrors coming from each dark hole now and the world is constantly threatened by the Blight (which Solas is terrified of, btw) it's not that hard to come into a conclusion that we've not seen the worst that can befall on Thedas yet.

I meant that he had no one else to give the Orb to, Corpyheus was the only viable alternatice since he didn't want to wait for his powers to come back. Again, something good came out of the whole debale but, IMHO, it wasn't really the desire to rid the world of a maniac that motivated Solas to give Cory the orb. It was desperation and, also, an uncaring attitude towards the damage Corypheus could have caused with it. Hell, he doesn't even show regret about all the people that were killed at the Conclave(and he knew the orb would cause such an explotion so, again, since he gave such a tool to a maniac, it's implied that he didn't much care about other innocent people who would die because of it), he just regrets that Cory delayed his plans.

Because he literally says to Flemeth "After my sleep(from Trespasser we know he woke up 1 year before Inquisition) i was too weak to open the orb". Also, since we don't exactly know how uthenera works but what we do know (from Solas hismelf) that to rivist the fade history of a place it's necessary to be physically in that place, it's more than likely he did all his exploring in the Fade after he woke up, not before

About Solas "the hypothetical savior"..... yeah, i disagree. There was the mage/templar war, but apart from that there is no evidence something "bad" was going to happen, or something worse than the norm anyway. I think he's disgusted by the Blights for the same reason Cory is disgusted by the Blights, they are horrible things that weren't there in their times (well, possibly they were in Cory's times)

 

Plus, honestly, i think "ancient evil coming back and the bad guy is the good guy" would just be detrimental to his character. He's fascinating because of the way he is, a layer of secret niceness would just make him less complex
 

Wut? Okay, how is deeming people as petty and self-centered somehow a mark of someone who condemns or doesn't care about people?
 
Leliana does it so too (Inky can even point out that she has hardly any faith in Thedosians, after she calls mast people small-minded and so on). So is Cassandra in fact in banter with Solas himself! (Solas: "People can be trying, mankind most of all." Cassandra: "That... is an excellent point."). Dorian keeps going on and on how bad the Tevenes are, yet he's in fact deeply caring and patriotic. Even Varric, a people's person, oftentimes doesn't have high opinion on them.
 
Seriously, saying that someone deems most population as petty and self-centered is hardly a hallmark of "not caring". I myself oftentimes bemoan the fact that large swathes of population are small-minded and petty - hardly makes an uncaring person; in fact I bemoan that fact precisely *because* I care.
 
But I digress... I've already pointed out numerous times that there's ample evidence i the game that shows that Solas does indeed care - the banters, the approvals, the actions. I'd also like to point out that Solas saves Inky and South even if Inquisitor never really became a catalyst for Solas' to change.

 

My point was that one of the reasons he risked giving Cory the orb is that he found most(/all) people to be lesser than what he remembered. As is aid, he knew the unlocking of the orb would cause an explotion and since he did give it to a maniac, well, he either didn't care about the risk of Cory killing innocent people while unlocking it OR he didn't really care about thinking his whole pan through. Either way, he knowingly risked people's lives because he didn't care

 

There's a variety of reasons for him to do it, one of the main one is in fact laid out most clearly on enemy route - "your death would cause more senseless chaos. More bloodshed. It is unnecessary."
 
So he saves disliked Inky and stops the Qun specifically to prevent unnecessary suffering. As for befriended or romanced Inky, he obviously has personal reasons to save them, but if a friend!Inky chooses redemption route, they clearly state they they will prove Solas that the world doesn't have to be destroyed. Solas's response? "I will treasure the chance to be wrong again, my friend".
 
So, yep. He specifically saves them to give the world a real fighting chance and appears prepared that he may indeed be stopped.

 

Honestly, this whole thing describes why i find him so dislikable and just why his attitude kind of ticks me off. He plays god with people's lives, and claims to despise gods, judges everyone based on his own messed up morals, and yet based on his actions he's the one who should be judged, wants (and probably will) to kill lots and lots of people, and at the same time he somehow wants to The Inquisitor to prove him wrong (like, yeah, just killed a person but now please prove i did wrong in doing so).

 

Truth be told, i dislike and feel sorry for Loghain because he, at least, had no idea of just how much he was wrong and how badly he was messing up. At least he was fighting for something real. Solas fights for something that is no longer there and, as he says, would sacrifice Thedas for the off-chance to get it back. Tragic in a way, since he's becoming just like the Evanuris of old, but it's so despicable to my eyes

[Medhia_Nox]

@maia0407:  It is interesting that you are an atheist - and here is why I think why.  As an atheist - you refuse to appeal to authorities which you cannot independently verify.  Is that correct?  You do not base your opinions on belief - but of fact - yes?  You cannot believe a priest, Pope, guru, swami, Imam, Rabbi, etc. simply because they tell you "this is so".  Is that correct?

 

I would suggest that, because you have an inkling that what Solas says is true.  Because you feel like what he says:  "Makes sense." Because you have imbued him with authority over your character's development - that you are simply exploring what it is to be faithful.  To be part of a belief based group that does not search for facts independently, but relies instead on a singular authority. 

 

I am not an atheist - though my "religiosity" is of no importance here - and I actually have the opposite reaction.  Having been a student of the "Cult of Personality" - I am, I believe, more inoculated against authorities.  

 

Solas is an authority on nothing to me.  His actions are not those of a wise being to me.  He shows, to me, none of the qualities of any great messianic, prophetic, spiritual being I have ever studied (and I have studied many).  He is - to me - an elf out of time struggling in all the worst ways to deal with his culture shock.  

 

And I think - that is the key.  To me, Solas is a man.  Not an "ancient and mysterious elf roiling with vast repositories of esoteric knowledge".  

 

It is this decision - the decision to elevate him - that would, in my opinion, make his actions, though leagues worse than Blackwalls, more palatable to you.  Blackwall is "just a man" - a man who has committed the horrible actions of a man.  You can see, with clarity, the gravity of his actions because you are comfortable with his status.

 

With Solas - your opinion of his "status" is higher than your own character.  Ergo, he must be "wise" and know more than you.  Yet, his constant failures suggest the opposite.  He is not a god.  He is not even really ancient... because he never "lived" the 3000 years that have passed.  

 

Try looking at Solas as just a modern City Elf trying to do what he's doing... do you see him differently?

[dawnstone]

 

I see a lot of people who really disavow Solas, that remind me a lot of him.

[Sah291]

@Medhia_Nox,

Hmm, but is it that people see Solas as an authority/messianic figure.... Or is it because they identify with his rejection of those things?

An atheist sympathizing with some of his views doesn't seem strange to me, since next to perhaps Morrigan, he is the most atheistic character in the game. Of course he isn't atheistic in the sense of being materialist or not spiritual, but in the sense of rejecting any gods or divine rulers. He admires the idea of the maker as a god who doesn't have to prove or lord power over people.

I like how in Tresspasser one of the lines the Inquisitor can say, when accused of being Fen'Harel's puppet, is to declare "I'm nobody's puppet!" Then a few moments later when you confront Solas, he echos this line back at you, when he declares he's "nobody's agent." The two characters, Solas and the PC, can have similar world views.

But that's why it feels like such a betrayal and kick in the teeth when he appears to be going against everything he claimed to believe in, and is now acting like one of the antagonists he fought. He's either a liar, or a coward, or both. Or there is more going on we don't know about yet.

[maia0407]

@maia0407: It is interesting that you are an atheist - and here is why I think why. As an atheist - you refuse to appeal to authorities which you cannot independently verify. Is that correct? You do not base your opinions on belief - but of fact - yes? You cannot believe a priest, Pope, guru, swami, Imam, Rabbi, etc. simply because they tell you "this is so". Is that correct?

I would suggest that, because you have an inkling that what Solas says is true. Because you feel like what he says: "Makes sense." Because you have imbued him with authority over your character's development - that you are simply exploring what it is to be faithful. To be part of a belief based group that does not search for facts independently, but relies instead on a singular authority.

I am not an atheist - though my "religiosity" is of no importance here - and I actually have the opposite reaction. Having been a student of the "Cult of Personality" - I am, I believe, more inoculated against authorities.

Solas is an authority on nothing to me. His actions are not those of a wise being to me. He shows, to me, none of the qualities of any great messianic, prophetic, spiritual being I have ever studied (and I have studied many). He is - to me - an elf out of time struggling in all the worst ways to deal with his culture shock.

And I think - that is the key. To me, Solas is a man. Not an "ancient and mysterious elf roiling with vast repositories of esoteric knowledge".

It is this decision - the decision to elevate him - that would, in my opinion, make his actions, though leagues worse than Blackwalls, more palatable to you. Blackwall is "just a man" - a man who has committed the horrible actions of a man. You can see, with clarity, the gravity of his actions because you are comfortable with his status.

With Solas - your opinion of his "status" is higher than your own character. Ergo, he must be "wise" and know more than you. Yet, his constant failures suggest the opposite. He is not a god. He is not even really ancient... because he never "lived" the 3000 years that have passed.

Try looking at Solas as just a modern City Elf trying to do what he's doing... do you see him differently?

Interesting take. Am I being influenced by Solas' charisma or, as you said, 'cult of personality'? Possibly on the level that I just genuinely enjoy people like Solas. He has a wise professor type vibe about him. More than that, under his distant exterior, he genuinely seems to care about the suffering of others and that speaks of a strong moral code. Of course, after his reveal, it's fair to ask how much any of that matters when his plan has a high probability of killing everyone. I fear that he is one of those people that is so smart he can justify almost anything to himself. Perhaps he's dragging me right along with him and his justifications or perhaps there is actually something to those justifications.

I constantly return to the issue that there seems to be something more going on; something that Solas hasn't revealed that is driving his plans. He's hinted and the game has hinted that the veil might be somehow killing Thedas. Pulling down the veil or altering it might be the only way to save Thedas. If that is the case, we return to the question of 'is it ever justified to commit an act that has a possibility of mass casualties to prevent an even worse outcome?' Should we even try to 'play God' when we can't guarantee that said plan won't backfire? Some would argue that it's never okay to play God and that events must unfold as they will. I just don't know as I don't have enough information about what Solas is actually planning and why.

So, I guess my answer to your question is that I don't accept Solas as an absolute authority figure. However, I *do* respect the knowledge that he brings to the table as he's an ancient elf. He has information that we don't. That doesn't mean that I accept everything he says at face value; I also look for corroborating evidence. I don't imbue him with infallible God like knowlege but I do listen to his perspective and give his thoughts on the veil, the fade and ancient elves more weight than I would someone else.

As to my atheism, I don't have any trouble reconciling my thoughts on Solas with my thoughts on deities. Questioning what religious authority figures teach and looking for evidence for their claims led me to atheism. I reserve judgment until I have evidence. I actually call myself an agnostic atheist. Many people put agnosticism in the middle of the scale of theism to atheism. That's not really the case as gnosticism/agnosticism deals with knowledge and theism/atheism deals with belief. I'm agnostic in that I don't see any evidence that leads to a knowlege of God but acknowledge that no one can have 100% certainty. My agnosticism impacts my belief. I lack any belief, atheism, due to the lack of evidence or knowledge of God. Regarding, Solas, I'm having a hard time judging him until all the facts are in. Luckily, unlike with religious claims, I expect answers with the next game.

[IllustriousT]

I have been reluctant to participate in this, but I feel something has been missing in this conversation, and that is the clear interest in apocalyptic fiction among many in society. I think, and I freely admit  that I can honestly say that I am thrilled at the prospect of Solas destroying the world. The same way I enjoyed playing Fallout 4, or love Mad Max (the movies), or The Walking Dead. 

 

Wes Burdine at the University of Minnesota posits that: 

 

 

Apocalyptic narratives play into liberation fantasies. Mass annihilation is depressing, sure, but it's sure as hell more exiting than the mall and running to the store to get toilet paper. These stories let us imagine being suddenly forced out of our comfort zone and into something far more heroic. Plus, have you tried to change the world lately? It's painful and slow or quixotic at best. End-of-the-world narratives allow us to imagine large scale rebirth and play into our utopian desires.

 

I can say that this most definitely applies to me. 

 

I believe for many of us, it may be hard to admit, but...if Solas tries to destroy Thedas, there is something crazily exciting about that - since it is fiction. Although, I do ponder often how long I would survive if an apocalyptic event really did happen? 

 

For those of you who love Solas, despite his wanting to destroy the world...It's okay, you're not alone  . 

 

That quote is from this article if you want to read:

Why do we love apocalyptic movies? The two basic rules that make them so addictive.

[Sah291]

@IllustriousT,

I agree with you about apocalyptic fiction being very popular right now.

I think it also reflects a general anxiety about the decline/corruption of institutions, and a growing sense of social unrest, and frustration... But also a sense of change and hope for the future.

There a number of little doomsday cults mentioned in dragon age lore. So I have to wonder if Solas is maybe a commentary on those who want to speed up a collapse in order to usher in a new world order or utopia or spiritual ascension, or union with god, second coming, etc.

Of course no two groups seem to share the same vision of what this new world ought to look like, but all necessarily want to be the ones in power when it happens. The Inquisitor has this great line after Haven about how everbody is fighting over what happpens in the next world, and maybe people should start caring about the current one.

[Medhia_Nox]

So, I guess my answer to your question is that I don't accept Solas as an absolute authority figure. However, I *do* respect the knowledge that he brings to the table as he's an ancient elf. He has information that we don't. That doesn't mean that I accept everything he says at face value; I also look for corroborating evidence. I don't imbue him with infallible God like knowlege but I do listen to his perspective and give his thoughts on the veil, the fade and ancient elves more weight than I would someone else.
 

 

This illustrates what I was conveying. 

 

May I ask why you think he has more authority?

 

- Felassan was, presumably, an ancient elf - and we know through meta that he didn't want to kill all of Thedas. 

 

- Flemythal has all the memories of an ancient elf goddess... and there's no indication that she wants to destroy modern Thedas. 

 

- Aside from duping most Inquisitors (and railroading the rest into not being able to deal with him) - what plan of his has succeeded thus far?  Your wise elf does acts on passion - not fact.  Had he acts on fact - he may have known what the thing he was making (the Veil) would do.  Had he acted on fact - and not passion - he may not have given his orb to someone who had achieved "effective immortality".  Had he considered acting on fact - not passion - he might now be considering other possibilities than destroying Thedas.  

 

NOTE:  Yes, I'm aware - some players will get to be Solas' "voice of reason" - another of Bioware's power fantasy explorations.  People will get to "fix him" - which, is pure fantasy of course, since you can't fix other people - but I digress. 

 

How many times does Solas get to say:  "Whoops, I didn't see that coming?"  and still retain his "wisdom"? 

 

More importantly... Blackwall shows that he's actually learned from his terrible mistakes and doesn't want to repeat them.  So - what damns him so much more in your eyes? 

[German Soldier]

oh

Wait

Actually the anchor doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter if the anchor is "wasted" prior to the explosion. It's the orb that matters. That's why Solas is sad when the orb breaks. Duh

Without the anchor Solas can't travel into the fade physically and undo the veil,he even said that the anchor was supposed to be for him to remove the veil and that it was actually far more important than the raw power of the Orb which he eventaully was able to  substitute with Flemeth.

Very good point. 

Of course...

[nightscrawl]

NOTE:  Yes, I'm aware - some players will get to be Solas' "voice of reason" - another of Bioware's power fantasy explorations. People will get to "fix him" - which, is pure fantasy of course, since you can't fix other people - but I digress.

Not necessarily! Just because the player declared that that was their desire or goal, and may undertake steps to accomplish that, doesn't mean they will succeed.

 

I'm actually quite interested to see how far the devs take this. If Solas is really as determined as he seems, despite whatever reluctance he currently has, he very well may go through with whatever or force the player to kill him.

[German Soldier]

 

 

 

 

 

I'd like to remind you that it's you who position that it was the Anchor that has directly protected the one who wields it. Those were YOUR words. And then suddenly you shrug off the fact that Justinia "got sucked into the Fade" and survived, when your own argument hinges on a fact that you claim that the Anchor was the reason for Inky's survival and would do the same to Cory too? 

Justina was able to survive into the fade so long that she was in the same domain of the wielder of the anchor.

Do you understand that those who enter physically in the fade are dead(like Corypheus in the end game) unless they are protected by some magical defense like the mark?

[maia0407]

This illustrates what I was conveying.

May I ask why you think he has more authority?

- Felassan was, presumably, an ancient elf - and we know through meta that he didn't want to kill all of Thedas.

- Flemythal has all the memories of an ancient elf goddess... and there's no indication that she wants to destroy modern Thedas.

- Aside from duping most Inquisitors (and railroading the rest into not being able to deal with him) - what plan of his has succeeded thus far? Your wise elf does acts on passion - not fact. Had he acts on fact - he may have known what the thing he was making (the Veil) would do. Had he acted on fact - and not passion - he may not have given his orb to someone who had achieved "effective immortality". Had he considered acting on fact - not passion - he might now be considering other possibilities than destroying Thedas.

NOTE: Yes, I'm aware - some players will get to be Solas' "voice of reason" - another of Bioware's power fantasy explorations. People will get to "fix him" - which, is pure fantasy of course, since you can't fix other people - but I digress.

How many times does Solas get to say: "Whoops, I didn't see that coming?" and still retain his "wisdom"?

More importantly... Blackwall shows that he's actually learned from his terrible mistakes and doesn't want to repeat them. So - what damns him so much more in your eyes?

I'm not sure that I understand your issue with the bolded statement. Acknowledging the simple fact that he is an ancient elf with direct experience with the pre-veil world is a problem, why? He *does* have more knowledge than anyone else in the game that we've met on those issues. I'm not saying that him having more factual knowledge about ancient things makes him infallible. It *just* means that he might know more than my character about what is actually going on. Until I learn what he knows, I'm having a hard time making a judgment about him and what he plans to do for the reasons I've already explained.

As to Blackwall, I think I judge him more harshly as he had no higher purpose for his crime than greed. He was a greedy selfish man only interested in his own power and advancement. Blackwall's subsequent attempts at redemption are good but I have a hard time getting over that character flaw. Until I learn otherwise, Solas' original act of putting up the veil was born from a desire to help, not harm. His current plans are horrifying if they really are *only* about restoring the elves. Until we learn more, I can't damn him. There are too many unknowns. That doesn't mean I won't try to stop him. I just need more information before jumping on the 'Solas is evil' wagon.

Media, if we find out that the veil is destroying the world and Solas' plan to tear it down is the only way to save some of Thedas, will you help or hinder Solas? Would that knowledge change your opinion of him?