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Why do some of you girls maybe guys like ( love ) Solas so much ?


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#1051
Lezio

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Media, if we find out that the veil is destroying the world and Solas' plan to tear it down is the only way to save some of Thedas, will you help or hinder Solas? Would that knowledge change your opinion of him?

 

Well, since we have no evidence that the veil was destroying the world pre-Breach, and the latter was created because of Solas..... Honestly, as far as i am concerned, if nothing else i would keep believing that the guys should have died with his world and that he now just needs to die and be done with it



#1052
German Soldier

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@Medhia_Nox,


An atheist sympathizing with some of his views doesn't seem strange to me, since next to perhaps Morrigan, he is the most atheistic character in the game. 

Morrigan isn't atheistic she is just anti-chantry



#1053
Lezio

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Morrigan isn't atheistic she is just anti-chantry

 

I'm pretty sure Morrigan is an atheistic. She has a whole dialogue with Leliana where she states she doesn't need to believe in a greater being to feel assured of her own existence. Plus, even in Inquisition she's very skeptical about the elven gods



#1054
Bayonet Hipshot

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@maia0407:  It is interesting that you are an atheist - and here is why I think why.  As an atheist - you refuse to appeal to authorities which you cannot independently verify.  Is that correct?  You do not base your opinions on belief - but of fact - yes?  You cannot believe a priest, Pope, guru, swami, Imam, Rabbi, etc. simply because they tell you "this is so".  Is that correct?

 

I would suggest that, because you have an inkling that what Solas says is true.  Because you feel like what he says:  "Makes sense." Because you have imbued him with authority over your character's development - that you are simply exploring what it is to be faithful.  To be part of a belief based group that does not search for facts independently, but relies instead on a singular authority. 

 

I am not an atheist - though my "religiosity" is of no importance here - and I actually have the opposite reaction.  Having been a student of the "Cult of Personality" - I am, I believe, more inoculated against authorities.  

 

Solas is an authority on nothing to me.  His actions are not those of a wise being to me.  He shows, to me, none of the qualities of any great messianic, prophetic, spiritual being I have ever studied (and I have studied many).  He is - to me - an elf out of time struggling in all the worst ways to deal with his culture shock.  

 

And I think - that is the key.  To me, Solas is a man.  Not an "ancient and mysterious elf roiling with vast repositories of esoteric knowledge".  

 

It is this decision - the decision to elevate him - that would, in my opinion, make his actions, though leagues worse than Blackwalls, more palatable to you.  Blackwall is "just a man" - a man who has committed the horrible actions of a man.  You can see, with clarity, the gravity of his actions because you are comfortable with his status.

 

With Solas - your opinion of his "status" is higher than your own character.  Ergo, he must be "wise" and know more than you.  Yet, his constant failures suggest the opposite.  He is not a god.  He is not even really ancient... because he never "lived" the 3000 years that have passed.  

 

Try looking at Solas as just a modern City Elf trying to do what he's doing... do you see him differently?

 

This illustrates what I was conveying. 

 

May I ask why you think he has more authority?

 

- Felassan was, presumably, an ancient elf - and we know through meta that he didn't want to kill all of Thedas. 

 

- Flemythal has all the memories of an ancient elf goddess... and there's no indication that she wants to destroy modern Thedas. 

 

- Aside from duping most Inquisitors (and railroading the rest into not being able to deal with him) - what plan of his has succeeded thus far?  Your wise elf does acts on passion - not fact.  Had he acts on fact - he may have known what the thing he was making (the Veil) would do.  Had he acted on fact - and not passion - he may not have given his orb to someone who had achieved "effective immortality".  Had he considered acting on fact - not passion - he might now be considering other possibilities than destroying Thedas.  

 

NOTE:  Yes, I'm aware - some players will get to be Solas' "voice of reason" - another of Bioware's power fantasy explorations.  People will get to "fix him" - which, is pure fantasy of course, since you can't fix other people - but I digress. 

 

How many times does Solas get to say:  "Whoops, I didn't see that coming?"  and still retain his "wisdom"? 

 

More importantly... Blackwall shows that he's actually learned from his terrible mistakes and doesn't want to repeat them.  So - what damns him so much more in your eyes? 

 

I actually think that this is the biggest distinction between someone who likes and dislikes Solas.

 

Someone who dislikes Solas, views him as an ordinary man who made plenty of mistakes and therefore, has to be held accountable for what he is doing. On the other hand, someone who likes Solas, views him as a special snowflake, a messiah figure, a prophet of sorts who is above conventional ethnics and morals which justifies his actions.

 

As for non-religiosity, you have to understand that there is more than one type of religion.

 

To me. religion is the anthropomorphication of reality by H*mo Sapiens***. It typically involves the apotheosis of something that is ordinary or normal or indifferent. For example, putting blind faith or enormous amount of hope or elevating someone or a concept to the point that a person or a team or a concept should not be questioned is also a form of religion or cult-like mentality.

 

The typical religion like the Abrahamic religions, polytheistic religions, Andrastianism is part of what I like to call the metaphysical religions. However, a hardcore fanboy exhibits many traits of someone who is deeply religious. So are people on the far-left / extreme left and the far right / extreme right.

 

Fyi, I am an atheist agnostic because to me the evidence we have so far shows that either there are no deity-like figures or there are deity-like figures out there but they give zero f*cks about us and since I cannot say which one is true, I am an atheist agnostic (because I don't believe in deities but not sure if they are real or not ) but because of this, I personally find organized religion pointless. I am also on the center when it comes to political issues.

 

One thing that I have noticed is this :- There are many people who are very highly skeptical of the nature of god and the metaphysical religion but at the same time, blindly support one side of the political spectrum or a political philosophy. For example, there are many atheists who are hardcore leftists (some are even staunch marxists) but if you ask them why that's the case or why are they not conservative or find conservative principles such as being fiscally responsible attractive, they don't know how to explain it and typically respond in a hostile manner. The behavior is quite similar to a staunch religious responding in a hostile manner to foreign ideas.

 

My point is that just because someone is an atheist in the metaphysical religious sense, it does not mean that they are not "religious" or cult-like in other matters of life. They may be staunch hardcore far left or far right folks who can't really be reasoned with or they might be a hardcore fanboy or fangirl of a band or a football club or of a person, real or imaginary or they might be people who believe so intensely in things like utopia of some form even though utopias are impossible to achieve. 

 

Oddly enough, Solas cannot be a voice of reason in the conventional sense. Here's why:-

 

1) He has shady credentials. In the base game, we know next to nothing about him or his origin. You don't trust a professor-like person who has shady credentials.

 

2) His sources are based on dreams, not real documents or artifacts. Try submitting a paper or a report for peer review where your evidence is by dreaming - you would get metaphorically crucified by everybody. In fact, Solas himself points out that the Fade is highly biased but that does not stop him from dreaming and learning from that biased source.

 

3) A voice of reason believes in rules and ethics. Solas gives next to zero f*cks about ethics and will do whatever it takes to get what he wants.

 

4) He lies. A lie by omission is still a lie. You can't lie and expect to be the scholar or the voice of reason. However, you can be an artist. To quote Evey Hammond from V for Vendetta - "My father was a writer. You would've liked him. He used to say that artists use lies to tell the truth, while politicians use them to cover the truth up."

 

***Why the f*ck is the word "H*mo" censored ?! Are Bioware a bunch of wimpy snowflakes that the mere mention of a latin word will trigger them so they censor it ?! SMH.


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#1055
Medhia_Nox

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Not necessarily! Just because the player declared that that was their desire or goal, and may undertake steps to accomplish that, doesn't mean they will succeed. ;)

 

I'm actually quite interested to see how far the devs take this. If Solas is really as determined as he seems, despite whatever reluctance he currently has, he very well may go through with whatever or force the player to kill him.

 

You would see me change my tune entirely if the redemption option cannot work... and regardless of what anyone might think, it has absolutely nothing to do with how much I dislike Solas.

 

I think suggesting a redemption option - but showing Solas is too far gone - would be extremely unique writing in the scope of a video game.  

 

If these games are supposed to be about the player - and not about NPCs - then having the player experience the tragedy of not being able to save a man they "love" "admire" "were friends with" would be a genuine tragedy as opposed to what Solas has done which is not tragedy - but vanity.  


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#1056
German Soldier

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I'm pretty sure Morrigan is an atheistic. She has a whole dialogue with Leliana where she states she doesn't need to believe in a greater being to feel assured of her own existence. Plus, even in Inquisition she's very skeptical about the elven gods

Precisely that she is just anti-Maker anti-chantry not an atheist as a whole.
A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods shouldn't feel the need to preserve ancient dragons venerated by dead old cults or to be so obsessed with ancient elven cults to the point of suggest to the inquisitor to complete the rituals of Mythal.
I don't think that pure atheists exist in Thedas at all because atheism is also built upon the scientific revolution.


#1057
Medhia_Nox

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I'm not sure that I understand your issue with the bolded statement. Acknowledging the simple fact that he is an ancient elf with direct experience with the pre-veil world is a problem, why? He *does* have more knowledge than anyone else in the game that we've met on those issues. I'm not saying that him having more factual knowledge about ancient things makes him infallible. It *just* means that he might know more than my character about what is actually going on. Until I learn what he knows, I'm having a hard time making a judgment about him and what he plans to do for the reasons I've already explained.

As to Blackwall, I think I judge him more harshly as he had no higher purpose for his crime than greed. He was a greedy selfish man only interested in his own power and advancement. Blackwall's subsequent attempts at redemption are good but I have a hard time getting over that character flaw. Until I learn otherwise, Solas' original act of putting up the veil was born from a desire to help, not harm. His current plans are horrifying if they really are *only* about restoring the elves. Until we learn more, I can't damn him. There are too many unknowns. That doesn't mean I won't try to stop him. I just need more information before jumping on the 'Solas is evil' wagon.

Media, if we find out that the veil is destroying the world and Solas' plan to tear it down is the only way to save some of Thedas, will you help or hinder Solas? Would that knowledge change your opinion of him?

 

It doesn't bother you at all that Solas literally says "I CAN tell you, but I won't."  

 

He actually denies you knowledge purposefully in Trespasser - and yet, you hold on to justification of his plans while waiting for "more info".  This doesn't bother you?

 

Let's be careful with "saving Thedas" - he has said nothing about any intentions about saving anything.  He says over and over that he wants to "restore the ancient world of the elves".  Any appeal to "saving" is purely fan fiction (at this point).  

 

So, hypothetically... if undoing the Veil will "save" Thedas I'd have to first know: 1) From what?  2) What other options have we explored? 3) Have we explored them thoroughly?  4)  What other authorities have we consulted?  5) And why did we keep things secret for years if time is an issue?

 

It is very unlikely that my opinion of him will ever change unless: 1)  He turns out to be the Maker.  2) He turns out to be a spirit.  


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#1058
Addictress

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Without the anchor Solas can't travel into the fade physically and undo the veil,he even said that the anchor was supposed to be for him to remove the veil and that it was actually far more important than the raw power of the Orb which he eventaully was able to substitute with Flemeth.
Of course...


Look at the next posts! Aahh
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#1059
Secret Rare

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As to Blackwall, I think I judge him more harshly as he had no higher purpose for his crime than greed.

For what reason Solas actions should not be interpreted as one of greed?

The intense and selfish desire for something to happen is a form of greed and that's exactly Solas way of thinking.


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#1060
maia0407

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It doesn't bother you at all that Solas literally says "I CAN tell you, but I won't."

He actually denies you knowledge purposefully in Trespasser - and yet, you hold on to justification of his plans while waiting for "more info". This doesn't bother you?

Let's be careful with "saving Thedas" - he has said nothing about any intentions about saving anything. He says over and over that he wants to "restore the ancient world of the elves". Any appeal to "saving" is purely fan fiction (at this point).

So, hypothetically... if undoing the Veil will "save" Thedas I'd have to first know: 1) From what? 2) What other options have we explored? 3) Have we explored them thoroughly? 4) What other authorities have we consulted? 5) And why did we keep things secret for years if time is an issue?

It is very unlikely that my opinion of him will ever change unless: 1) He turns out to be the Maker. 2) He turns out to be a spirit.

Sure, withholding knowledge bothers me but I understand that he's not going to reveal his plans and make it easy for me to stop him if I disagree. He's not a dumb dumb.

He also says that his plans are the best options among bad options. Until I know the facts, of course I'll reserve judgement on how evil he is. What's the rush to claim absolute certainty about a person without all the facts? Reserving judgment means that I'm motivated to learn more so that I can make the most informed decision possible about how to deal with him. This is bad, why?

That doesn't mean that I trust everything he says or more accurately that I trust his interpretations of everything he says. It does mean that I'll seek to corroborate or disprove his information. Given the severity of his plans, I'll also act in my own self interest and try to stop, delay, etc his plans until I have the information I need. If he's only about restoring the old world, she'll stop him if the game allows. If his plan will save the world from catastrophe she might help him depending on the nature of the catastrophe.

I have to note, since you took issue with my atheism, that claiming absolute certainties about issues before the facts are in is a very theistic mindset. So, I do see why you think like you do.
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#1061
maia0407

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For what reason Solas actions should not be interpreted as one of greed?
The intense and selfish desire for something to happen is a form of greed and that's exactly Solas way of thinking.


His original plan to put up the veil wasn't about making his life easier as he was one of the Evanuris. Arguably he made his life harder to help those that weren't as powerful. That's the opposite of greed in my book.
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#1062
Sah291

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Morrigan isn't atheistic she is just anti-chantry


Eh, atheism as a philosophy doesn't appear to exist (yet) in Thedas. Or it isn't very common. I just meant she is closer to it, that's all. Even her approach to magic is more scientific than spiritual, and she believed the old gods/elven gods were just ancient rulers/emperors, and not gods. She thinks little of paying the price to drink at the Well of Sorrows, because she figures Mythal is long gone and had no power over her anyway.

#1063
maia0407

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@Medhia: just curious, why would Solas being a spirit change your view of him? Is it because they are bound to a purpose and don't seem to have much free will due to their nature?

#1064
German Soldier

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Eh, atheism as a philosophy doesn't appear to exist (yet) in Thedas. Or it isn't very common. I just meant she is closer to it, that's all. Even her approach to magic is more scientific than spiritual, and she believed the old gods/elven gods were just ancient rulers/emperors, and not gods. 

That's one of the big issues i have with this pseudo mages/sorcerer like Morrigan.
What is that made you think that magic can be interpreted through the lens of the scientific method when it is also tied with mysticism and dream?
No amount of experiments can prove that something is right but a single experiment can prove that something is wrong,that is something that pertains the scientific method which doesn't work with magic just look at Cole the way he feel magic..


#1065
maia0407

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That's one of the big issues i have with this pseudo mages/sorcerer like Morrigan.
What is that made you think that magic can be interpreted through the lens of the scientific method when it is also tied with mysticism and dream?
No amount of experiments can prove that something is right but a single experiment can prove that something is wrong,that is something that pertains the scientific method which doesn't work with magic.

I don't know, the way Thedas is written, magic appears to be very much a part of the natural world. Dagna studies it like it is predictable and has rules that can be discerned.
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#1066
Medhia_Nox

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Sure, withholding knowledge bothers me but I understand that he's not going to reveal his plans and make it easy for me to stop him if I disagree. He's not a dumb dumb.

He also says that his plans are the best options among bad options. Until I know the facts, of course I'll reserve judgement on how evil he is. What's the rush to claim absolute certainty about a person without all the facts? Reserving judgment means that I'm motivated to learn more so that I can make the most informed decision possible about how to deal with him. This is bad, why?

That doesn't mean that I trust everything he says or more accurately that I trust his interpretations of everything he says. It does mean that I'll seek to corroborate or disprove his information. Given the severity of his plans, I'll also act in my own self interest and try to stop, delay, etc his plans until I have the information I need. If he's only about restoring the old world, she'll stop him if the game allows. If his plan will save the world from catastrophe she might help him depending on the nature of the catastrophe.

I have to note, since you took issue with my atheism, that claiming absolute certainties about issues before the facts are in is a very theistic mindset. So, I do see why you think like you do.

 

Woah... where did I take issue with your atheism?  Any "God" I would believe in would not even notice your disbelief - so I certainly have no problem with it. 

 

You're tilting at windmills on that one.  

 

I'm disappointed that your solution was to take a shot at the way I think (not that I mind you taking shots - just that you were incorrect in your reason as to why you did it).  

 

EDIT:  Yes, if he is a spirit - I cannot expect him to act like a sapient being and cannot hold him to the same standards.  If he's an "old elf" - I could care less about his claims to authority.   That does not change the fact that I would be compelled to defeat his plans. 


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#1067
Illegitimus

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You do know that Solas knew the Orb would result in an explosion? That he was waiting patiently in a pub in the outskirts or near Haven?

 

I suppose it's fine because it was actually Corypheus who did

 

When he arranged for Corypheus to find it he did not expect for Corypheus to unlock it in the middle of a crowded convention center.  Just another example of the Dread Wolf's cunning schemes having knock-on effects he didn't account for.  



#1068
German Soldier

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I don't know, the way Thedas is written, magic appears to be very much a part of the natural world. Dagna studies it like it is predictable and has rules that can be discerned.

Dagna is Bioware way to try to portray magic as scientific,but you have only to look at Cole to realise that the scientific method can't be applied to magic or to the shapeshifters who are able to convert energy in matter in their own body every time they change their form which is something illogical for every physical law because it happen without consequences.

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#1069
Bayonet Hipshot

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It doesn't bother you at all that Solas literally says "I CAN tell you, but I won't."  

 

He actually denies you knowledge purposefully in Trespasser - and yet, you hold on to justification of his plans while waiting for "more info".  This doesn't bother you?

 

Let's be careful with "saving Thedas" - he has said nothing about any intentions about saving anything.  He says over and over that he wants to "restore the ancient world of the elves".  Any appeal to "saving" is purely fan fiction (at this point).  

 

So, hypothetically... if undoing the Veil will "save" Thedas I'd have to first know: 1) From what?  2) What other options have we explored? 3) Have we explored them thoroughly?  4)  What other authorities have we consulted?  5) And why did we keep things secret for years if time is an issue?

 

It is very unlikely that my opinion of him will ever change unless: 1)  He turns out to be the Maker.  2) He turns out to be a spirit.  

 

This is also one of the reason I don't like the Egghead and I am not very fond of Flemeth either. I mean, you have two people who know WTF happened back then but are being all coy about it because Bioware needs to make more games for no reason.

 

My opinion of Solas is that he needs to be held responsible and accountable for his actions and for what he has planned. That will not ever change, even if Solas is revealed to be the Maker or a Spirit or something else.

 

Solas has been so caught up with what he can do or what he is capable of doing but no one, especially himself, has asked what he should do.

 

He decides to leak the location of his Orb to Corypheus. He can do that and he did it but I don't think he asked himself if he should do it.

 

He decides to want to bring down the Veil and kill hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people but I don't think he has asked himself if he should do it.

 

Having power and knowledge is one thing. Having the capacity to self-reflect is another.

 

If Solas possessed the capacity to properly self-reflect, he would not be planning to create an apocalypse because of how his plans never work the way they do due to their aggrandized and grandiose nature. Truly, all his plans and actions are "big" which means that there is so many ways that it can go wrong and in almost all the cases, it has gone wrong.



#1070
IllustriousT

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It's going to be hilarious and devastating at the same time, when we are all forced to kill Solas right before he brings the veil down. Then the remaining Evanuris break out, blight the world, and destroy Thedas while simultaneously bringing down the veil anyway.

 

Hey, It could happen. 


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#1071
Bayonet Hipshot

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Dagna is Bioware way to try to portray magic as scientific,but you have only to look at Cole to realise that the scientific method can't be applied to magic.
 
or to the shapeshifters who are able to convert energy in matter in their own body every time they change their form which is something illogical for every physical law.

 

Science:- The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

 

Magic:- The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.

 

Therefore, magic is not science. Magic can have elements of science within it but magic is not synonymous with sciences. They just have some overlap with one another.

 

Its like mathematics and science. Science and have elements of mathematics in it and vice versa but science is not equivalent to mathematics. They just have some overlap with one another.


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#1072
Xerrai

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I actually think that this is the biggest distinction between someone who likes and dislikes Solas.

 

Someone who dislikes Solas, views him as an ordinary man who made plenty of mistakes and therefore, has to be held accountable for what he is doing. On the other hand, someone who likes Solas, views him as a special snowflake, a messiah figure, a prophet of sorts who is above conventional ethnics and morals which justifies his actions.

 

Ah, normally I would stay out of such arguments, but I do have to disagree with this overly simplistic notion. It's almost as bad as a stereotype.

 

There are several fans who like Solas and do view him as an ordinary man who has made plenty of mistakes. It is in fact precisely why some of us like him. Accountability is something a substantial number of Solas likers can agree on, but most argue on what form that accountability should take.

 

In short, that distinction you made about "People who like Solas vs People who don't like Solas" is absolute BS.


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#1073
maia0407

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Woah... where did I take issue with your atheism? Any "God" I would believe in would not even notice your disbelief - so I certainly have no problem with it.

You're tilting at windmills on that one.

I'm disappointed that your solution was to take a shot at the way I think (not that I mind you taking shots - just that you were incorrect in your reason as to why you did it).

EDIT: Yes, if he is a spirit - I cannot expect him to act like a sapient being and cannot hold him to the same standards. If he's an "old elf" - I could care less about his claims to authority. That does not change the fact that I would be compelled to defeat his plans.

Yeah, you're right. I reread your post where you mentioned atheism and you didn't take issue with it. I misread. Apologies.

Do you think he claims authority as an old elf? I think we're at odds in the way we're defining an authority figure. I allow that an expert in a field knows more than a non-expert and their knowledge gives their opinions more weight than non-experts. This doesn't mean that I blindly follow their advice but I do give their opinions/knowledge more consideration than others.

For example, my doctor knows more about medical issues than I do. She's an authority figure in that sense. She's not someone I have to obey but I trust her judgment more than some internet buffoon doling out medical advice. Of course, I'll do my own research for major medical decisions, seek other opinions, etc. before deciding how to act on her recommendation.

Solas is an authority on certain issues. Again, that doesn't mean that he can't be wrong about his perspective on the facts or how to act. That's all I'm saying when I acknowledge he's an authority figure in that sense.
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#1074
Illegitimus

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Dagna is Bioware way to try to portray magic as scientific,but you have only to look at Cole to realise that the scientific method can't be applied to magic or to the shapeshifters who are able to convert energy in matter in their own body every time they change their form which is something illogical for every physical law because it happen without consequences.

 

 

The scientific method is not restricted to a specific set of natural laws.  


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#1075
Sah291

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That's one of the big issues i have with this pseudo mages/sorcerer like Morrigan.
What is that made you think that magic can be interpreted through the lens of the scientific method when it is also tied with mysticism and dream?
No amount of experiments can prove that something is right but a single experiment can prove that something is wrong,that is something that pertains the scientific method which doesn't work with magic just look at Cole the way he feel magic..

Well that is why I can't say there is anything completely resembling modern atheism as a philosophy in the game. Spirits are generally accepted to exist in the game, even by the Qunari. Thedas hasn't reached a point of wide skepticism about magic or the fade (despite what Solas thinks). Everyone generally accepts that it exists, even if they don't believe it is something people should be messing with.

But even in the real world, before the scientic revolution, there were people who had overlapping interests in the occult, and subjects like chemistry and medicine. Like Alchemy, for example, that both influenced the development of chemistry, and also branched off into a spiritual practice.

Morrigan very much has that world view. Magic is something she says she can see and use, unlike faith. She says that back in DAO. She sees magic as something more tangible and real. Probably at least some of what mages do in Thedas is pseudo science (like healing). But there's no distinction.