4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Lezio]

Yeah, you're right. I reread your post where you mentioned atheism and you didn't take issue with it. I misread. Apologies.

Do you think he claims authority as an old elf? I think we're at odds in the way we're defining an authority figure. I allow that an expert in a field knows more than a non-expert and their knowledge gives their opinions more weight than non-experts. This doesn't mean that I blindly follow their advice but I do give their opinions/knowledge more consideration than others.

For example, my doctor knows more about medical issues than I do. She's an authority figure in that sense. She's not someone I have to obey but I trust her judgment more than some internet buffoon doling out medical advice. Of course, I'll do my own research for major medical decisions, seek other opinions, etc. before deciding how to act on her recommendation.

Solas is an authority on certain issues. Again, that doesn't mean that he can't be wrong about his perspective on the facts or how to act. That's all I'm saying when I acknowledge he's an authority figure in that sense.

 

Honest question, why do you think Solas ha some kind of authority in, well, anything?

Like, for example, in one of the 1st dialogues The Inquisitor has with him, using meta, it can be extrapolated that all he knows about history of Thedas (and of its people) he learned in the Fade, which he specifically says to be an unreliable font of information because of its ever changing nature...... and yet, later, if The Inquisitor, when Solas says that most people are petty and self-centered, replies that Solas' font of data was probably biased/wrong the guy goes all defensive and claims his information was 100% accurate.

 

This to say that, it's more than likely, the guy knows less than he thinks he does, so it's well within the realm of possibility that his perception of "this world sucks, mine was better" is just plain wrong. As a matter of fact, from what we learn in Trespasser, it's pretty clear that Solas' "good old days" when the elves were at the top of the food chain were just Tevinter on steroids

[Heimerdinger]

 

Dagna is Bioware way to try to portray magic as scientific,but you have only to look at Cole to realise that the scientific method can't be applied to magic or to the shapeshifters who are able to convert energy in matter in their own body every time they change their form which is something illogical for every physical law because it happen without consequences.

 

 

Magic and science don't mix well.

 

They can use science as a starting point in worlds like Mass Effect. They based the tech and the biotic "super powers" on a fictional element -> Element Zero, in the right circumstances (subjected to negative/positive electrical current) it can harness the dark energy effect and manipulate mass. In the real world, very little is known about dark energy. This leaves the writers with some room to maneuver and keep the science technobable at least plausible within that universe.

 

Dragon Age can't do the same. Magic is power drawn from the Fade, which in turn was created/separated from the real world through more magical acts. Its just too much bullshit to even attempt some kind of scientific technobable.

[maia0407]

Dagna is Bioware way to try to portray magic as scientific,but you have only to look at Cole to realise that the scientific method can't be applied to magic or to the shapeshifters who are able to convert energy in matter in their own body every time they change their form which is something illogical for every physical law because it happen without consequences.

I don't know how the writers at Bioware define magic and I don't know any details about the natural laws that govern their universe. Since we don't know what natural laws guide Thedas' universe, I don't know how to define supernatural for their universe. Obviously, things like gravity exists, a star presumably provides energy for their world, etc. The writers seem to indicate that Lyrium powers magic and that Lyrium might be the blood of a sentient creature that is part of the world. If we can define it and understand it, does that make it part of the natural world?

As to belief in the supernatural and atheism, it is possible to believe in the supernatural and be an atheist. Atheism only requires a lack of belief in God. Not many atheists believe in the supernatural but it's possible. Morrigan would certainly qualify as an atheist if she doesn't believe in deities.

[Medhia_Nox]

Yeah, you're right. I reread your post where you mentioned atheism and you didn't take issue with it. I misread. Apologies.

Do you think he claims authority as an old elf? I think we're at odds in the way we're defining an authority figure. I allow that an expert in a field knows more than a non-expert and their knowledge gives their opinions more weight than non-experts. This doesn't mean that I blindly follow their advice but I do give their opinions/knowledge more consideration than others.

For example, my doctor knows more about medical issues than I do. She's an authority figure in that sense. She's not someone I have to obey but I trust her judgment more than some internet buffoon doling out medical advice. Of course, I'll do my own research for major medical decisions, seek other opinions, etc. before deciding how to act on her recommendation.

Solas is an authority on certain issues. Again, that doesn't mean that he can't be wrong about his perspective on the facts or how to act. That's all I'm saying when I acknowledge he's an authority figure in that sense.

 

It isn't that he knows more - there's little doubt he's very knowledgeable. 

 

It is that he purposefully stops the character from knowing more.  That you cannot do your own personal research and the game provides no other such authorities with which to compare his claims.

 

Just like you cannot condemn him based off a lack of information - I cannot support him.

 

However the information I have received in game from him is almost exclusively negative (that does not mean it is correct - it means it is the information that matters to me) - I did not romance him, but my current Lavellan is good friends with him - and all I can think about while I allow Solas to dupe him is how I would feel if a friend did to me what Solas does to my PC.

 

My friends don't put me in harms way to serve their own agendas and keep me in the dark so I cannot make informed decisions for myself.  

 

EDIT:  As for magic and science... let us be clear.  Arthur C. Clarke says science "appears" or is "indistinguishable" to magic.  Not that it "is" magic.  Magic cannot be scientifically studied... it defies the very nature of such study. 

[maia0407]

Honest question, why do you think Solas ha some kind of authority in, well, anything?
Like, for example, in one of the 1st dialogues The Inquisitor has with him, using meta, it can be extrapolated that all he knows about history of Thedas (and of its people) he learned in the Fade, which he specifically says to be an unreliable font of information because of its ever changing nature...... and yet, later, if The Inquisitor, when Solas says that most people are petty and self-centered, replies that Solas' font of data was probably biased/wrong the guy goes all defensive and claims his information was 100% accurate.
 
This to say that, it's more than likely, the guy knows less than he thinks he does, so it's well within the realm of possibility that his perception of "this world sucks, mine was better" is just plain wrong. As a matter of fact, from what we learn in Trespasser, it's pretty clear that Solas' "good old days" when the elves were at the top of the food chain were just Tevinter on steroids

I think he is an authority on ancient elves as he is an ancient elf. He has factual knowledge about the pre-veil world that we don't have just by who he is and what he has lived through. However, facts and interpretation of facts are two different things. I can accept that he has more knowlege than my character about ancient elfy stuff while disagreeing with his interpretation of those facts.

[Secret Rare]

Solas should figure the rule number 1

Spoiler

[Xerrai]

Honest question, why do you think Solas ha some kind of authority in, well, anything?

Like, for example, in one of the 1st dialogues The Inquisitor has with him, using meta, it can be extrapolated that all he knows about history of Thedas (and of its people) he learned in the Fade, which he specifically says to be an unreliable font of information because of its ever changing nature......

 

The fade isn't like dreaming in real life, it has fade spirits who watch upon events and can 'remember' them about just as good as any person can. But like people, these visions/historic accounts are all based on personal perspective. These perspective each have their own bias and their own weakpoints, but it ultimately doesn't change that they are a perspective in and of themselves.

 

Its why Solas compares them history books---it all depends on the lens in which the author (or in the spirit's case, observer) interpreted events.

 

The trend of some spirits taking pains to preserve memory isn't something that only Solas believes either--several Circle mages have also come to similar conclusions (source).

[maia0407]

It isn't that he knows more - there's little doubt he's very knowledgeable.

It is that he purposefully stops the character from knowing more. That you cannot do your own personal research and the game provides no other such authorities with which to compare his claims.

Just like you cannot condemn him based off a lack of information - I cannot support him.

However the information I have received in game from him is almost exclusively negative (that does not mean it is correct - it means it is the information that matters to me) - I did not romance him, but my current Lavellan is good friends with him - and all I can think about while I allow Solas to dupe him is how I would feel if a friend did to me what Solas does to my PC.

My friends don't put me in harms way to serve their own agendas and keep me in the dark so I cannot make informed decisions for myself.

Yeah, it's annoying that he won't hand us the knowledge but I get that he doesn't want us meddling in his plans. He doesn't want to be Scoobied. Darn kids,lol.

I get the frustration with him and have no issue with you disliking a character that I enjoy.

Eta: I don't support or condemn him at this point. I need more info to get off the fence. But, I do adore his character and am having a blast with his angsty romance!

[Hellion Rex]

 

 

My friends don't put me in harms way to serve their own agendas and keep me in the dark so I cannot make informed decisions for myself.  

[German Soldier]

The scientific method is not restricted to a specific set of natural laws.  

Unless you don't even know what the scientific method is you should understand that it cannot apply to magic whom is tied with the dream world.

[German Soldier]

Magic and science don't mix well.

 

They can use science as a starting point in worlds like Mass Effect. They based the tech and the biotic "super powers" on a fictional element -> Element Zero, in the right circumstances (subjected to negative/positive electrical current) it can harness the dark energy effect and manipulate mass. In the real world, very little is known about dark energy. This leaves the writers with some room to maneuver and keep the science technobable at least plausible within that universe.

 

Dragon Age can't do the same. Magic is power drawn from the Fade, which in turn was created/separated from the real world through more magical acts. Its just too much bullshit to even attempt some kind of scientific technobable.

Mass effect is not good on that regard since they use Irl science and then they came up with whatever fantasy rule they desire but at least  they try,...

 

Dragon age instead has this bizarre attitude to rely on the definition of power in order to define magic but what does that mean?

Power in the sense of  energy?

Energy isn't magic to begin with.

In DA magic is just the capacity to make something happen that's all.

[Sah291]

I don't know how the writers at Bioware define magic and I don't know any details about the natural laws that govern their universe.

I think Solas or Dorian or someone defined it. Unless I am remembering wrong or thinking of a different game. But I thought I remembered characters defining it as understanding the principles that govern how the world works, and shaping the world according to one's will.

That's a common definition anyway and is very broad. But you can see right away how this would be problematic for the Chantry, and any philosophy (like the Qun), who are deterministic, believe that power belongs to maker alone, or that people have a set or unchangeable nature.

Magic would be connected to the fade and dreams. But it would be about manifesting those things into reality. One would not have to believe in the supernatural or deities. In fact the idea of something being supernatural or outside of the natural world, is antithetical.

[Illegitimus]

Unless you don't even know what the scientific method is you should understand that it cannot apply to magic whom is tied with the dream world.

 

<snort>  The scientific method can be applied to any observable phenomena provided only that more than one person can observe it.  That includes a hypothetical "dream world".  

[Addictress]

The scientific method is not restricted to a specific set of natural laws.

I typically roll my eyes at CW shows where scientists try to science super powers and Dagna science-ing magic but you do have a point.

However I'm still irked in my soul since the scientific method wasn't developed until recently and is still anachronistic in my medievalesque fairy tale world.

[Addictress]

Honestly? Seeing the scientific method in Tamriel and Thedas makes me incredibly angry.

Like dafuq

[Qun00]

I wish we were allowed to respond to Solas' argument that human sacrifices are no different from how you kill in the name of the Inquisition.

The Inquisitor never attacks idle bystanders. Your enemies willingly choose to engage in a battle to the death and often attack you on sight.

However, the victim of a blood ritual has no say in whether they'll be laid on a stone altar and stabbed by a creepy cultist.

[Medhia_Nox]

<snort>  The scientific method can be applied to any observable phenomena provided only that more than one person can observe it.  That includes a hypothetical "dream world".  

 

It can be applied... but doing so is useless.  

 

You can apply the scientific method to art - but if that's what you think art is - you would be extremely wrong.

[midnight tea]

That's not known. The only thing I can hypothesize is that it has something to do with the magic being cast. The Divine was the focus, and the spell was disrupted. 

 

We don't know what kind of old spells Corypheus was casting and we know even less about the ancient elven foci and the magic involved there. 

 

All we really know about the foci is that it's an artifact that is paired with Solas and that it can store and release vast amounts of magical power. 

 

Well, there's one possibility - every other person in the room aside from the Herald and Justinia were Blighted.

[BansheeOwnage]

Something I just realized and posted in another topic. Sorry if it has already been discussed, but I thought it was worth sharing here too:

 

This isn't quite true, he says:

 

"An enemy can attack, but only an ally can betray you. Betrayal is always worse."

 

He doesn't say betrayal is the worst thing in the world. But to be honest, the more I think about it, the more I realize that he doesn't really betray us. Or at least, he tries to do so as little as possible, because he knows it's a terrible thing to do and go through.

 

This is why despite it being a fairly dumb thing to do, he saves your life in Trespasser, even if he hates your guts. This is why he explains his intentions. Instead of just letting you die or putting you out of your misery, he saves you. Because if he didn't, it would be a betrayal. Instead of saving you but not telling you his plans, he tells you, because that way you can't be betrayed, not really. Because before you actually start fighting each other, you know where you both stand. He doesn't take you by surprise, he lets you prepare, thus minimizing the "betrayal" as much as possible.

 

It's to the point where it's Honour Before Reason. To me, that helps me realize why he lets you live and tells you his plans, and makes him a bit more sympathetic, too.

[Medhia_Nox]

Something I just realized and posted in another topic. Sorry if it has already been discussed, but I thought it was worth sharing here too:

 

This isn't quite true, he says:

 

"An enemy can attack, but only an ally can betray you. Betrayal is always worse."

 

He doesn't say betrayal is the worst thing in the world. But to be honest, the more I think about it, the more I realize that he doesn't really betray us. Or at least, he tries to do so as little as possible, because he knows it's a terrible thing to do and go through.

 

This is why despite it being a fairly dumb thing to do, he saves your life in Trespasser, even if he hates your guts. This is why he explains his intentions. Instead of just letting you die or putting you out of your misery, he saves you. Because if he didn't, it would be a betrayal. Instead of saving you but not telling you his plans, he tells you, because that way you can't be betrayed, not really. Because before you actually start fighting each other, you know where you both stand. He doesn't take you by surprise, he lets you prepare, thus minimizing the "betrayal" as much as possible.

 

It's to the point where it's Honour Before Reason. To me, that helps me realize why he lets you live and tells you his plans, and makes him a bit more sympathetic, too.

 

You realize - of course - that he waits to get "god" powers before he starts acting with any sort of "courage"?  

He "took you by surprise" for three years... and only admits the "truth" once you've already discovered it all on your own.

 

He might not have betrayed you - but he betrayed my current character.

 

He did not betray my main Inquisitor - because my main Inquisitor never trusted him to begin with.  

[Almostfaceman]

I actually think that this is the biggest distinction between someone who likes and dislikes Solas.

 

Someone who dislikes Solas, views him as an ordinary man who made plenty of mistakes and therefore, has to be held accountable for what he is doing. On the other hand, someone who likes Solas, views him as a special snowflake, a messiah figure, a prophet of sorts who is above conventional ethnics and morals which justifies his actions.

 

 

Yeah... I haven't seen anyone say that. 

 

I've seen people say he's interesting as an eye-witness to ancient times, magic and culture. 

I've seen people say he's interesting because he may have saved the world while being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. 

We've witnessed that he wants to restore the world of the elves. I've seen no one say they see him as a savior. 

I've seen people say he raises interesting possibilities about making hard choices. I haven't seen anyone say he's above conventional ethics. In fact, the act of redemption is at first an acknowledgment that something needs to be redeemed. 

I've seen people say he has an interesting perspective, he's lived long enough to see patterns in societies, organizations, civilizations. I haven't seen anyone say this makes him able to predict the future as some sort of prophet. 

 

Your statement makes me wonder if you actually take the time to read what people are saying or if you just have made up your mind so you don't bother. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Yeah... I haven't seen anyone say that. 

 

I've seen people say he's interesting as an eye-witness to ancient times, magic and culture. 

I've seen people say he's interesting because he may have saved the world while being forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. 

We've witnessed that he wants to restore the world of the elves. I've seen no one say they see him as a savior. 

I've seen people say he raises interesting possibilities about making hard choices. I haven't seen anyone say he's above conventional ethics. In fact, the act of redemption is at first an acknowledgment that something needs to be redeemed. 

I've seen people say he has an interesting perspective, he's lived long enough to see patterns in societies, organizations, civilizations. I haven't seen anyone say this makes him able to predict the future as some sort of prophet. 

 

Your statement makes me wonder if you actually take the time to read what people are saying or if you just have made up your mind so you don't bother. 

 

If he does that - he's not the only one. 

[Almostfaceman]

If he does that - he's not the only one. 

 

To be approached individually, topically and contextually. Your statement is so vague that it adds nothing to the discussion.

[German Soldier]

 

 

This is why despite it being a fairly dumb thing to do, he saves your life in Trespasser, 

It is not a dumb thing to do Solas did that regardless of relationship for his own interest so that everyone in the south will lower their guard

[Almostfaceman]

It is not a dumb thing to do Solas did that regardless of relationship for his own interest so that everyone in the south will lower their guard

 

That could be achieved more effectively by just killing the Inquisitor. 

 

1. The Qunari attack disappears.

2. Nobody knows why.

3. Solas controls the Eluvians, thus most evidence of the Qunari attack, the Inquisitor investigation and of the Dread Wolf disappears. 

4. Solas and followers operate covertly with no one left to work against them behind the scenes. 

 

With the Inquisitor alive, the Inquisitor can use whatever influence they have left to work behind the scenes with other world powers preparing for the next move of Solas.