Each Thedosian's experience with magic is a unique one... it is natural Thedosian law in conjunction with imbued meaning.
Science cannot give value or imbue anything with meaning.
The natural laws exist regardless of how much you believe a sword is a sword... (DA:O - Valor)
What's the meaning of "I freeze that guy then I hit him with crushing prison" except "I want that guy dead?"
With that said, I'll argue against painting Solas as the incarnation of evil as some people here are determined to do, but also against ignoring his darker side. Personal love is neither excuse nor justification.
I'm not ignoring them. I'm saying he's a compelling character, not necessarily a likeable one. And that he's compelling doesn't mean I'd like to go along with him.
I am curious, though. Why does Solas feel like he has the right to modify the very Earth and directly affect billions (?) of lives by his decision alone?
This is the second time he does this. If Solas could see the value and potential of ordinary actions, perhaps he wouldn't have brought so much misery to his people and ultimately himself.
When you are a megalomaniac or ehm....sorry i meant when you are very complex and compelling you feel these kind of needs.....
I am curious, though. Why does Solas feel like he has the right to modify the very Earth and directly affect billions (?) of lives by his decision alone?
This is the second time he does this. If Solas could see the value and potential of ordinary actions, perhaps he wouldn't have brought so much misery to his people and ultimately himself.
Solas is the new Loghain. And as such, his fandom is divided into two types: Those that love him despite his misdeeds and those that recognize his flaws but don't consider them "real flaws". There is justification for every tiny detail.
1. I really doubt we're all going to come to a consensus on who has "the right" to change the world and to what degree.
2. What is it with people-who-dislike-Solas's obsession with (incorrectly) categorizing people-who-enjoy-his-character? You're just making yourself look ignorant and petty, because so far these gross generalizations and oversimplifications have been far from accurate. There are plenty of Solas fans who accept that he is flawed. I think you might be falsely equating understanding his flaws with forgiving them.
Yeah, i mean it's just a person, right? Any person with a bit of self-control, or decency, does stuff like that (and keeps doing it over and over again)
Really? So every person is a thousand years of being on a long, complex mission to change the world? Sorry, but how many movies or books or games or RL situations we have where people in difficult situations eliminated or considered eliminating friends or valuable members of team or else, because the situation - even if at that time - called for that? Even recently I've watched "Sunshine" in which such dilemmas and decisions were at the center of the story. it just so happens that they weren't Solas, so let's conveniently ignore that (and let's conveniently ignore that many characters later managed to change their position or redeem themselves or become valuable allies or fan favorites, or else) and live in blissful utopia where such situations neeeever happen...
Not to mention that Felassan wasn't just his friend - he was his agent. He was working for him and knew the risks. He knew that his leader had not yet had experienced with the world he had, while it' was absolutely crucial for Felassan to complete his mission ("No accounting for whimsy. Small differences lead to fatal consequences. I'm sorry."). That Solas is open-minded enough to change his position later shows his ability to learn and change. That he eventually considers the mission he and Felassan was on as more important than Felassan's or his own position only shows that what he thinks has to be accomplished is not a matter of whimsy.
As i stated many times, he gave Corypheus the orb and risked innocent people's lives, but to him they were non-people so it's okay.
It's amazing that we've discussed that topic to death, and you still claim that it was as simple as that. You obviously aren't interested with anything other than oversimplification, so I don't think I have anything to add to the matter. There's just no point.
Especially since, in 2 scenarios out of 3 (friendship and romance), he later comes to understand that people are people and corrects his ways by..... uh vowing to kill 'em all. Even then, it's okay because, in all his wisdom, he's probably protecting the world from something far worse.
Who ever said that, even if the end result of Solas's plans are indeed beneficial for the world at large, it means that "it's OK" to sacrifice people, when Solas explicitly states that it isn't and either still hopes for someone to find a better solution or punished for it? Neither he, NOR people who like/understand him think that "it's OK".
He killed his friend, stole the powers/something from another and plans to destroy the world, but hey he has good reasons and feels bad so it's okayNot for me, really. What he's doing is only necessary because he says it is, and that is no good reason.
Anyone saying that "it's OK" for Solas to do anything he's done only exists in your head. Nobody says that "it's OK" - what most people are saying that it's not as simple as you make it to be.
Also - you can't tell at this point in the story with utmost certainty that he's doing what necessary only because he says it is. We don't know that yet. The fact that you think that he is and deem him so NOW speaks only about your own convictions or perspective on the story.
......
You do realize you say everything "it's not ok" and yet you excuse his every action by saying stuff like "he gave the orb to Corypheus because he wanted to off a maniac, his intentions were pure!!!!!" or "He killed his friend because the latter gave a s*** about life, but he's ancient and complex and is on a (self-imposed) quest to changethe world!!!!" or "he changed his mind later on(after killing said friend[but he was also an agent so he knew the risks!!!]) because he's open-minded and now he considers everyone people(in 2 out of 3 scenario and still wants to kill them all anyway)!!!!" and so forth and so on
I can, and i do, tell at this point of the story that the guy is up to no good because he has literally done nothing good since he has awoken. All he's done is enabling a maniac to open a Breach into the veil, promised he will kill millions to restore his people (which could possibly range into the thousands) and acted all contrived over doing something horrible that literally no one has asked him to do.
I judge him based on what i see is someone who fought fake gods and yet behaves just like one, someone who would sacrifice just about anyone to accomplish his self-imposed quest, someone who destroyed the world once because he chose to (he made the veil after the Evanuris killed Mythal, not before. He put his precious People to the sword because one person had died), someone who will try to do so again, change the natural laws of the world again, because he has a sense of entitlment that only someone who thinks hismelf a god could have
I still believe that, ultimately, it is myopic to judge Solas' condemnation of all the mortal lives in Thedas as a wholesale loss of life. For isn't he by the same token saving other lives?
Like I said before, in Mass Effect 3, Garrus said 'we are dooming 1 billion lives here to save 2 billions lives over there.'
If the quantity and quality of lives that will emerge due to the reversal of the veil are judged to be more than those lost from deleting the veil, is it such a one-dimensional evil?
2. What is it with people-who-dislike-Solas's obsession with (incorrectly) categorizing people-who-enjoy-his-character? You're just making yourself look ignorant and petty, because so far these gross generalizations and oversimplifications have been far from accurate. There are plenty of Solas fans who accept that he is flawed. I think you might be falsely equating understanding his flaws with forgiving them.
Yeah, I sadly think this is the major problem we have here. It's a weird, rigid sort of thinking that... doesn't really accomplish anything. Other than trying to discredit people with opinion a person disagrees on the matter. Nobody excuses Solas's flaws, most of the time they simply think that the situation is not as simple as some want to present it and don't over-focus on his flaws, or mistakes, at the expense of everything else... to the point that it affects the perspective on entire story. I mean... Solas is a pivotal character of Dragon Age franchise. His appearance was built up since DAO. Inevitably that means that he'd be at the center of many discussions, or speculations or fan theories. Making him into a straightforward villain therefore limits discussion we can have not just on his own character, but on entire lore and possible story conclusions.
I'm not disagreeing with your point about science at all, but I wanted to point out that magic sort of does require a mage to "suspend their disbelief", as we learn in a banter between Solas and Cassandra. And this is countered by templars and seekers "enforcing reality", or "suspending their suspension of disbelief"
Yes, but even "reinforcing reality" basically means using magic 
I mean, Lucius goes as far as calling Seekers abominations (and we can't say that they aren't especially with their resistance to possession. They're resistant... probably because they're already possessed by Faith?) and Templars use lyrium - the source of all magic, save one mages bring themselves - to do the whole "reinforcing". And mages chug lyrium or use blood (well, lyrium is also technically blood...) to power up their own magic.
I'm also not sure the Seekers or Templars (or mages) technically "suspend the suspension of disbelief" - it's more like they create a situation where their belief/willpower reinforces the reality they believe in (which, in case of Seekers and Templars is totally influenced by teachings of the Chantry), not necessarily one that just IS. So the 'suspension of disbelief' - in universe - relates more to mage or a person changing perspective or giving up/changing what they believe in, which is a separate thing from just ability to use magic, especially in general sense.
Which, you know, is entirely congruous with what Solas tells us, and congruous with reality where there exists a force that lets people do that - in universe that can be shaped by will and imagination, there naturally would exist a law that lets will trump everything/most, including other wills. Naturally then the strongest (or most cunning, I guess) would have the biggest effect on reality OR the most "real" thing would be the one collectively believed in the most (...which I suspect is what powers up the Veil, and MAY or may not be a basis of existence of Thedas itself. The collective will of sentient beings.).
This is probably why Solas himself deems the Veilless world as potentially dangerous and very possibly why Evanuris managed to enslave vast populations. They were fountains of will (additionally powered by slain Titans?) mighty enough to do it.
And maybe enslaving people was also a way to augment their own power? It's not like it's a rare trope in fiction (gods powered by belief of subjects). We do know after all people can draw power from many sources, including other people - this is, in fact, how Inquisitor managed to close the Breach the first time, if allying with mages. Solas literally yells to the mages "Focus on the Herald - let her/his will draw from you!"
I still believe that, ultimately, it is myopic to judge Solas' condemnation of all the mortal lives in Thedas as a wholesale loss of life. For isn't he by the same token saving other lives?
Like I said before, in Mass Effect 3, Garrus said 'we are dooming 1 billion lives here to save 2 billions lives over there.'
If the quantity and quality of lives that will emerge due to the reversal of the veil are judged to be more than those lost from deleting the veil, is it such a one-dimensional evil?
Yes. Genocide is evil no matter how you slice it.
Solas is the new Loghain. And as such, his fandom is divided into two types: Those that love him despite his misdeeds and those that recognize his flaws but don't consider them "real flaws". There is justification for every tiny detail.
1. I really doubt we're all going to come to a consensus on who has "the right" to change the world and to what degree.
2. What is it with people-who-dislike-Solas's obsession with (incorrectly) categorizing people-who-enjoy-his-character? You're just making yourself look ignorant and petty, because so far these gross generalizations and oversimplifications have been far from accurate. There are plenty of Solas fans who accept that he is flawed. I think you might be falsely equating understanding his flaws with forgiving them.
Yes. Genocide is evil no matter how you slice it.
Did you miss the part where he is saving more lives than killing?
I won't argue against the definition of genocide here, but I don't recall any genocide which purports to save more lives than it kills.
Did you miss the part where he is saving more lives than killing?
I won't argue against the definition of genocide here, but I don't recall any genocide which purports to save more lives than it kills.
No, I did not. That still has him committing genocide, thus committing an evil act. Good intentions don't change that.
You have no evidence that it will. Solas has given no evidence it will. I'm not going to take the word of a man who has done nothing but lie to the extent he is seen as a trickster god.
Plus history has plenty of genocides with that mindset.
No, I did not. That still has him committing genocide, thus committing an evil act.
You have no evidence that it will. Solas has given no evidence it will. I'm not going to take the word of a man who has done nothing but lie to the extent he is seen as a trickster god.
So Shepard and Garrus committed Genocide by electing not to save 1 billion lives over here instead of the 2 billion over there? By this logic.
I don't need evidence that it will. We are questioning the internal moral code of this character, acting from what he knows.
Someone can only be so moral as the information they are aware of.
I still believe that, ultimately, it is myopic to judge Solas' condemnation of all the mortal lives in Thedas as a wholesale loss of life. For isn't he by the same token saving other lives?
Like I said before, in Mass Effect 3, Garrus said 'we are dooming 1 billion lives here to save 2 billions lives over there.'
If the quantity and quality of lives that will emerge due to the reversal of the veil are judged to be more than those lost from deleting the veil, is it such a one-dimensional evil?
Really, for me is as simple as this, the ancient elves had their chance and they failed. They proclaimed themselves gods, enslaved their own people and, at the end of it all, they left Thedas in ruins
Now look at Theodosians, yeah, sure Tevinter is awful and the Qunari are kind of messed up, but when something evil rises they unite and they fight against it (see Origins or Inquisition or the Blights or Thedas' whole history for proof of that). Hell, when Tevinter pulled an "Evanuris" they rose up against them, something Solas' people never did
From my perspective, they haven't messed up, not like the elves did, so they deserve to live their lives without a megalomaniac walking in and telling them they're "not enough"
And this whole thing has given me major hype for DA4, let's spit in the gods' eyes 
Really, for me is as simple as this, the ancient elves had their chance and they failed. They proclaimed themselves gods, enslaved their own people and, at the end of it all, they left Thedas in ruins
Now look at Theodosians, yeah, sure Tevinter is awful and the Qunari are kind of messed up, but when something evil rises they unite and they fight against it (see Origins or Inquisition or the Blights or Thedas' whole history for proof of that). Hell, when Tevinter pulled an "Evanuris" they rose up against them, something Solas' people never did
From my perspective, they haven't screwed up like the elves did, so they deserve to live their lives without a megalomaniac walking in and telling them they're "not enough"
The evanuris screwed up, not the Elvehn. Solas is the one who put the evanuris down. The Elvehn for all we know could not rise up - actually, he led their rebellion and tried to teach them to rise up, but the Evanuris were far more powerful and adept at putting down rebellions than the Tevinter magisters could ever be.
I mean just look at them
So Shepard and Garrus committed Genocide by electing not to save 1 billion lives over here instead of the 2 billion over there? By this logic.
I don't need evidence that it will. We are questioning the internal moral code of this character, acting from what he knows.
Someone can only be so moral as the information they are aware of.
No. They didn't kill them. The Reapers did. What Shepard and Garrus did was not save them because they couldn't.
Yes you do. You're asserting that he thinks he'll save more lives than take, so you better have data to back it up.
No. They didn't kill them. The Reapers did. What Shepard and Garrus did was not save them because they couldn't.
Yes you do. You're asserting that he thinks he'll save more lives than take, so you better have data to back it up.
Data to back up that more lives will actually be saved, or that he thinks more lives will actually be saved?
Yes you do. You're asserting that he thinks he'll save more lives than take, so you better have data to back it up.
Lol, the same applies to you. You're asserting that he wants to destroy more lives than take and so far we have no straight answers for that too.
Data to back up that more lives will actually be saved, or that he thinks more lives will actually be saved?
Data for him thinking that, as I said. I can tell you right now he has never expressed that more lives will be saved than lost from his actions.
Lol, the same applies to you. You're asserting that he wants to destroy more lives than take and so far we have no straight answers for that too.
Yes we do. He says how his plan will result in the deaths of humans, dwarves, qunari, and even the modern elves all so he can save the remaining ancient elves.
Did you miss the part where he is saving more lives than killing?
The evanuris screwed up, not the Elvehn. Solas is the one who put the evanuris down. The Elvehn for all we know could not rise up - actually, he led their rebellion and tried to teach them to rise up, but the Evanuris were far more powerful and adept at putting down rebellions than the Tevinter magisters could ever be.
I mean just look at them
Usually it's the failure of the few that leads to the end of an era or a civilization, there are always innocents but the point still stands, Arlathan ended and Thedas began. And Thedas, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to be replaced by something that has already fallen and is, for all intents and purposes, a thing of the past, especially since, again, Thedas as a whole has proved to be a much better place than Arlathan ever was (or at least was at the time of its destruction)
Data for him thinking that, as I said. I can tell you right now he has never expressed that more lives will be saved than lost from his actions.
Well, yeah, that's not explicitly written, and is a subjective interpretation. We only have the feels, from the way his dialogue has been written, that this is his belief. No one can prove either way.
"You must understand. I awoke in a world where the Veil had blocked most people's consciousness connection to the Fade. It was like walking through a world of Tranquil."
"So we aren't even people to you?", the inquisitor asks.
"Not at first. You showed me that I was wrong... Again. That does not make what must come next any easier."
We know that his people have a conscious connection to the Fade, which he apparently considers an important sense to have - something which would add to the quality of life in general. Maybe those who want to give him the benefit of the doubt simply want to believe he still estimates that the lives he will save will amount to more than those that will be lost. What Solas believes is all headcanon at this point.
Yes we do. He says how his plan will result in the deaths of humans, dwarves, qunari, the modern elves, and who knows what other races all so he can save the remaining ancient elves.
Rampant confirmation bias. The only thing he said is that "I will save the elvhen people" which at this point we don't really know what they are. Hardly any of his statements about this matter are explicit enough to claim that the world will most definitely end and anyone who ain't ancient elves will most definitely die. We also have no idea whatsoever what is the true number of people he tries to save, so you saying that he's sacrificing all for the handful of elves is entirely unconfirmed (plus, what about spirits, yo?).
Another thing - "death" can mean many things. He himself says that he's on din'anshiral - the path of death, but in an edgame dialogue with Cole he claims that he will walk the path he's on for eternity and states that he "will never forget" romanced Lavellan. Mythal was also "killed" - yet she's still alive. "Death" of one world, or civilization, doesn't mean the end of it all. It wasn't an end of it all when he "destroyed the world of elves", wasn't it?
In other words, we don't even know what will happen. What if "death" is more metaphorical, which in a world where symbolism and meaning and shifting perspective actually has an effect on reality can mean many things. So far we only know that there are prophecies and hints, and one of the major prophecies that seems to be tied to what Solas is doing claims that "everyone will be like they were". Not elves, not ancient elves - everyone.
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