4626 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

midnight tea:  So, you think Hitler didn't love?  
 

I bet Eva Braun looked past all the pesky Jew-hate to find Hitler's "complexity" too. 

 

And we don't even need to use Hitler... evil people love.  They're not incapable of it.  They're just self-obsessed beings who can't see beyond their own desires and utterly lack empathy for the rest of the world outside their inner circle.

 

Sounds exactly like a character I know. 

 

Oh, yes... but Solas says:  "I feel bad about killing millions of people."  Seriously... this is the "complexity" of Solas... 

[midnight tea]

midnight tea:  So, you think Hitler didn't love?  
 

I bet Eva Braun looked past all the pesky Jew-hate to find Hitler's "complexity" too. 

 

Aside from missing my point entirely, what you say makes no sense in any context. Hitler loved, but only one, imagined race/nation and select, apparently mentally unstable individuals that knew him for a long time, agreed with him/never had any say in his politics and went as far as attempted suicide to get his attention.

 

Add to that the fact that if Inquisitor was in any way similar to his relationship to Eva Braun, Solas would allow Inquisitor to join him, instead of either trying to prevent them from suffering the same fate he will for his transgressions, or asking them to stand on the side of the world he threatens and prove him wrong about the necessity of destroying it, going as far as saying that he's looking forward to it.

 

Like... there's no analogy here between Inky and Eva Braun. In fact I couldn't think of anything more different.

[Dragongirl24]

How i see Solas is i really like him a lot i think i cannot love a pixel character from a game that is where i draw the line. Even if he is looking talking and behaving like Solas. He has a really nice and sexy voice i love his stories i could listen for hours to those stories. And there is something mysterious about him and that is difficult to explain he has something that attracts me. If this was real life then yes i could love someone like him.

[Medhia_Nox]

Aside from missing my point entirely, what you say makes no sense in any context. Hitler loved, but only one, imagined race/nation and select, apparently mentally unstable individuals that knew him for a long time, agreed with him/never had any say in his politics and went as far as attempted suicide to get his attention.

 

Add to that the fact that if Inquisitor was in any way similar to his relationship to Eva Braun, Solas would allow Inquisitor to join him, instead of either trying to prevent them from suffering the same fate he will for his transgressions, or asking them to stand on the side of the world he threatens and prove him wrong about the necessity of destroying it, going as far as saying that he's looking forward to it.

 

Like... there's no analogy here between Inky and Eva Braun. In fact I couldn't think of anything more different.

Yes, of course... I was saying they're exactly alike... especially with my line:  "And we don't even need to use Hitler..."  

 

You couldn't think of ANYTHING more different?  That's the basis for your affirmation of being correct?  Think harder. 

[IllustriousT]

I don't think those who find Solas an interesting character, friend of love interest, makes them Hitler-loving-masochists in reality. 

 

I play many games that depict things and situations I would not do in real life. I believe when it comes to these fictional universes, it shouldn't be compared to reality. Especially when games/books/movies give us the one thing we want, and that is to escape from reality. If every time I launched a game and started comparing all the characters/circumstances to historical figures/circumstances then...well...I don't think it would be good for my soul - and I don't suffer from self-harming.

[Ieldra]

[...]
So.. sure - that's how I feel about apocalyptic beings.  *shrugs*

I understand - but Solas isn't a true apocalyptic, is he? For an apocalyptic, the destruction of the old is as much the point as the emergence of the new, if there is to be any. With Solas, it's more like "Which kind of price am I prepared to let others pay for repairing the world?" Granted, the distinction makes no difference for the outcome, but it makes a difference for how I view the character.

That the world doesn't need to be repaired, that it's not defective but simply changed, is a matter of perspective, and it's one that Solas, being an ancient elf, doesn't share. That I don't agree with him doesn't change that I have some empathy for his viewpoint.

As, actually, I have some empathy for the more reflective of those hardcore traditionalists who are feeling that their world is being broken by newer developments in technology and society in general. It doesn't change that I'd prevent their influence at any level if I can, but I understand how they feel to some extent.

[Jeradon]

 He has a really nice and sexy voice i love his stories i could listen for hours to those stories. And there is something mysterious about him and that is difficult to explain he has something that attracts me. If this was real life then yes i could love someone like him.

Without considering the nice and sexy voice, Solas is a complex and fascinating character. He is introverted, uncompromising, and at times unpleasant: no wonder Varric calls him "Chuckles". Yet his understanding how the fade interacts with the world makes him thoughtful, even nostalgic. In the story of Cole, he appears as a caring person, and yet he is really unpleasant to Varric.

He is great company when exploring ruins, or during investigations, and I often take him along with Cole.

[Dragonovith]

The first time I saw him, I thought "I don't like this bald guy". It paid off in the end. Remember, trust your instincts!

[dawnstone]

My goodness it's early in the morning for a Godwinning.

 

Anyway, a befriended Solas doesn't want to do what he is planning, is not spewing angry rhetoric or hate speech, is not rounding up people for torture and slaughter, or making his friend/lover complicit in his possible actions. He doesn't want to do it, and he won't tell you why he has to. He also just helped save the entirety of southern Thedas from the Qunari when he could have just let it burn. There is quite a lot he's done that conflicts with what he's said, and vice-versa. Almost like there's whole other side to this, and to him and what is going on with the Veil, and Mythal, and the world at large, which we don't know about yet... almost like there's more story to be told...

 

*sigh*

 

The only logical reason for there to be a redeem option in the ending of Trespasser, is that there is a redemption story to be told, and that the devs believe the character to be ultimately worth putting the resources towards redeeming. I'm not going to bother trying to change the minds of people who already have decided how the story and character work, but attacking other fans for finding a character enjoyable and sympathetic and ultimately worth saving, is just garbage.

[Sah291]

Err, I don't think Solas is a racist or comparable to Hitler in that sense. His actions aren't driven out of a sense of racial superiority or conquest. I think that's a misunderstanding. He's an immortal being, and you kind of have to look at him from that context I think. This is the conceit of a god, who can just casually make and remake reality, and turn people to stone with a glance. Conceit he fought the Evanuris over. So it's a story about becoming a monster in order to fight monsters. When he says the Inquistitor would do no different in his place, it is probably true... Most probably would, and if the story continues into DA4 I think we might see that. You can resolve to stop him at all costs.

I know most of us complain about the stupid and overused trope of people changing for love, because it's often written pretty shallow and cliche a lot of the time. But then again, the fact so many think it's stupid to put love above anything else, is kind of sad too.

[Medhia_Nox]

I understand - but Solas isn't a true apocalyptic, is he? For an apocalyptic, the destruction of the old is as much the point as the emergence of the new, if there is to be any. With Solas, it's more like "Which kind of price am I prepared to let others pay for repairing the world?" Granted, the distinction makes no difference for the outcome, but it makes a difference for how I view the character.

That the world doesn't need to be repaired, that it's not defective but simply changed, is a matter of perspective, and it's one that Solas, being an ancient elf, doesn't share. That I don't agree with him doesn't change that I have some empathy for his viewpoint.

As, actually, I have some empathy for the more reflective of those hardcore traditionalists who are feeling that their world is being broken by newer developments in technology and society in general. It doesn't change that I'd prevent their influence at any level if I can, but I understand how they feel to some extent.

 

Was that for me?  

 

I have said before that I would have empathy for Solas if it turns out he's a spirit.  It would make complete sense "to me" that he would experience the world the way he does because he isn't a mortal being of flesh and blood - but an otherworldy entity incapable of comprehending mortals or the material world.

 

We simply cannot know what Pre-Veil Thedas was like.  We cannot know if it was better or worse.  We cannot know if the Evanuris were as he claimed.  We cannot know if his rebellion was for the reasons he claims.  We cannot know that he made the Veil. 

 

And, like someone who doesn't base their world view on the representatives of Spaghetti gods - I cannot simply listen to a bald elf's testimony and change my entire world view to support an apocalypse.  

 

That being said... let's take a hypothetical.  Let's say I had more empathy for the world's sentient creatures and had no qualms in utterly whipping out the worlds singular sapient creature under the belief that the Natural world is what is pure and good and where I want the world to be.  

 

You don't need my testimony to know that 4 billion years of Earth history contains only 200,000 years of ******-sapiens.  You don't need my testimony to know that life continued unabated for 3.5 billion years before our arrival.

 

You don't need my testimony to know that were are now the cause of the Sixth Extinction event that is estimated to kill 30-50 percent of all animal life by 2050.

 

You can corroborate ALL my claims through science... you can not yet corroborate ANY of Solas' claims at all.  Not yet anyway. 

 

And yet, people believe him because they like "the idea" of what he says. 

 

That's religious thinking.

 

@Sah291:  Putting "love" over everything else is, for me, selfish. "Love" - the Greek agape (selfless love)... is entirely different and is similar to the "God of Love" concept from the Bible... if Solas could "Love" the world he would never think to kill it. Instead... he "loves" his past and thinks only of that.  

 

Even if I liked Solas as a character (it just happens that I disagree with everything he says - from spirits to his apocalypse) - I would still stop him.  

 

From a storytelling perspective I find stopping him with words to be highly unreasonable and out of character - for the character "I" experienced.

[Heimdall]

I can empathize with him because I don't find his actions so outlandish and insane as some do.

I mean, if I were catapulted into the future only to discover that my entire culture had been annihilated and its descendants rendered into lobotomized second class citizens as a result of MY actions, I would probably be willing to do some pretty drastic things if I thought I could restore what was.

I don't approve, but I can see his perspective.

[IllustriousT]

 

I have said before that I would have empathy for Solas if it turns out he's a spirit.  It would make complete sense "to me" that he would experience the world the way he does because he isn't a mortal being of flesh and blood - but an otherworldy entity incapable of comprehending mortals or the material world.

 

 

I believe that being an Elvhen is being of the physical world and the Spirit world. 

 

Solas, the spirit:

 

[Catilina]

I like Solas, because he is not a monster. He said.

[dawnstone]

I believe that being an Elvhen is being of the physical world and the Spirit world. 

 

Solas, the spirit:

 

You know, I got a shot of him underground in Crestwood when all the spirits were out, and one of them overlaid him for a moment - it reminds me a lot of what we see in the ending there:

[Dean_the_Young]

LOL, because it isn't

 

 

 

Oh-ho? Let's see which one of these is unsuitable.

 

Is he old? Even without stasis-sleep he's implicitly hundreds of years at the least.

 

Bald? Well, I'm not seeing hair on top.

 

Genocidal? That's a very fair assessment of his plan, given not only his warnings, and his endstate, but also the means by which he already tried to execute it (the Breach).

 

Racist? Absolutely. Not the charicature many have of racism, but he's raically-specific cultural chauvenist who denies the personhood of other demographic groups not his own.

 

White? Doesn't get much whiter than him.

 

Guy? Yup.

 

Dresses like a hipster? Probably the most debatable, since there isn't a clear definition of hipster style (which is, in fact, the point).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a strange sort of racist that showers Inquisitor with approval every time they show they care about others no matter of race and does what he can to save people from suffering, including revealing himself and his plans to a person/organization that has a chance to stop him (even if they despise Inky) and stopping an invasion that would plunge South in chaos and likely help him further his goals without anyone the wiser.

 

 

Not really strange if you actualy are familiar with non-charicature racists. Racists are quite capable of empathy for people of other races. Racism =/= lack of empathy. Being racist derives from categorical views, motivations, and beliefs, and intentions.

 

Solas is not looking to save the South, but merely to destroy it on his own terms for his racial revaunchist agenda.

 

 

 

And yes, Solas was totally such a Hitler once already that despite absolutely loving the Fade and spirits he was forced to hurt them by creating the Veil, and - from the looks of it - now stands in a sort of a similar devastating dilemma that nobody in real life had: a prospect of either part of the world, or perhaps even entire world eventually dying or losing a part of itself that is important, while you have a chance to stop it, even if for a terrible prize that will eventually utterly destroy you.

 

 

This argument presumes that Hitler wouldn't have hurt members of a group he claimed to care about.

 

He kind of did. A lot.

 

 

While I'd certainly agree that Solas isn't a Hitler, the difference is in style, not malevolent effect. Killing off and subjugating the majority of the world for a tiny minority to rule over in glory isn't what's different.

[midnight tea]

Yes, of course... I was saying they're exactly alike... especially with my line:  "And we don't even need to use Hitler..."  

 

You couldn't think of ANYTHING more different?  That's the basis for your affirmation of being correct?  Think harder. 

 

Huh... so apparently "we don't even need to use Hitler" (stuff you've added after I've responded to your post, as proven by my quote), but somehow you end up implicitly comparing people who understand that situation with Solas is more complex than "evil! Elf! Supremacist!" to Hitlers' lover.

 

Also - the basis of my confirmation is actually paying attention to what happens in the story. I don't have to 'think harder' to see that the situation is more complex than what someone who's quick to use Godwin's Law thinks it is.

[Dean_the_Young]

I understand - but Solas isn't a true apocalyptic, is he? For an apocalyptic, the destruction of the old is as much the point as the emergence of the new, if there is to be any. With Solas, it's more like "Which kind of price am I prepared to let others pay for repairing the world?" Granted, the distinction makes no difference for the outcome, but it makes a difference for how I view the character.

That the world doesn't need to be repaired, that it's not defective but simply changed, is a matter of perspective, and it's one that Solas, being an ancient elf, doesn't share. That I don't agree with him doesn't change that I have some empathy for his viewpoint.

As, actually, I have some empathy for the more reflective of those hardcore traditionalists who are feeling that their world is being broken by newer developments in technology and society in general. It doesn't change that I'd prevent their influence at any level if I can, but I understand how they feel to some extent.

 

I would say that destroying the old (or rather- the current) is a significant part of the point for Solas. The current world is his mistake, fundamentally flawed, and filled with not-people who cruely and selfishly oppress eachother. Removing them isn't a regrettable cost in the sense that if he could do the same thing without killing them he would- the current order (and the current not-people) have to be replaced in order to make way for the Real People and Better Society and Elven Glory. He may prefer their passing to be painless, but pass they must.

 

Solas view is very much that the world is defective- that it's not what it should be, is supposed to be, and he has to change it in part because it's his fault it is this way. Solas isn't trying to change the current world- he's trying to destroy it, so that another can take it's place.

[Sah291]

@Sah291:  Putting "love" over everything else is, for me, selfish. "Love" - the Greek agape (selfless love)... is entirely different and is similar to the "God of Love" concept from the Bible... if Solas could "Love" the world he would never think to kill it. Instead... he "loves" his past and thinks only of that.  
 
Even if I liked Solas as a character (it just happens that I disagree with everything he says - from spirits to his apocalypse) - I would still stop him.  
 
From a storytelling perspective I find stopping him with words to be highly unreasonable and out of character - for the character "I" experienced.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. He's a god who lacks empathy and love for a world he had a hand in creating, or perhaps he felt he only ended up hurting people worse with his love, so now he rejects it. We don't really know the full circumstances yet.

Eros/Cupid was a trickster god who caused a lot of good and bad things to happen, but he wasn't evil, and was very necessary for sustaining creation. Interestingly enough, Solas mentions a spirit who sounds a lot like Cupid in one of his stories. Cole also behaves a lot like this at times, in banter, etc.

[midnight tea]

Oh-ho? Let's see which one of these is unsuitable.

 

Is he old? Even without stasis-sleep he's implicitly hundreds of years at the least.

 

Bald? Well, I'm not seeing hair on top.

 

Genocidal? That's a very fair assessment of his plan, given not only his warnings, and his endstate, but also the means by which he already tried to execute it (the Breach).

 

Racist? Absolutely. Not the charicature many have of racism, but he's raically-specific cultural chauvenist who denies the personhood of other demographic groups not his own.

 

White? Doesn't get much whiter than him.

 

Guy? Yup.

 

Dresses like a hipster? Probably the most debatable, since there isn't a clear definition of hipster style (which is, in fact, the point).

 

That's just silly By your logic you could say that I am being tall white and female supporter of world destruction by turning everyone into gummy-bears, and you're right in every respect because you got it right that I am tall, white and female.

 

That's not how it works. Anyone with half of brain can see why.

 

edit: Also - being "genocidal" by definition means "systemic destruction of a given race or culture" and no, Solas doesn't systemically destroy anyone, in fact at the end of Trespasser he saves South from destruction brought by Qunari and enables Inquisitor to go and stop him. Almost as if *gasp* he's conflicted by his own actions and doesn't necessarily wants to go through with them.

 

Also - you could say that Solas begins as racist or at the very least prejudiced (but not because of some sort of notion of supremacy; he knows people aren't what they were before because his actions are a direct cause why they were cut away from the Fade), but under the influence of decent Inquisitor he changes his mind and admits to everyone being people and deserving better. What's more, people have discovered that for him to change his mind, or let Inquisitor possibly change his plans, the player only needs his character have only +1 approval with him.

[Abyss108]

I would say that destroying the old (or rather- the current) is a significant part of the point for Solas. The current world is his mistake, fundamentally flawed, and filled with not-people who cruely and selfishly oppress eachother. Removing them isn't a regrettable cost in the sense that if he could do the same thing without killing them he would- the current order (and the current not-people) have to be replaced in order to make way for the Real People and Better Society and Elven Glory. He may prefer their passing to be painless, but pass they must.

 

Solas view is very much that the world is defective- that it's not what it should be, is supposed to be, and he has to change it in part because it's his fault it is this way. Solas isn't trying to change the current world- he's trying to destroy it, so that another can take it's place.

 

I don't believe this is true for a friendshipped Solas at all. Rivaled - yes.

 

If he could do do the same thing without killing everyone in the new world, I absolutely believe he would.

[Heimdall]

I don't believe this is true for a friendshipped Solas at all. Rivaled - yes.

If he could do do the same thing without killing everyone in the new world, I absolutely believe he would.

I'm not really sure. I'm not sure whether he sees the destruction of the current world as a necessity of his plan or a regrettable but unavoidable consequence of it.

[Silcron]

I don't believe this is true for a friendshipped Solas at all. Rivaled - yes.

If he could do do the same thing without killing everyone in the new world, I absolutely believe he would.

You're right, but what would be the fate of the inhabitants of Thedas? To Solas due to their weak connection to the Fade they are not people. The way he descrives them it's like they looked like people, they had bodies but lacked the soul, what makes people people in his opinion. So if he managed to do his plan without killing the inhabitants of Thedas what would be the fate of those nonpeople in the new world?

The old elven empire had slaves, if his plan is a revival of that empire why not enslave the nonpeople? After all they are not truly alive so it's not like there is a real moral dilemma. Personally I think that at best he thinks that in a world without a Veil the nonpeople could give birth to true people but unless they are elven even then I don't see it being a very positive world.

I want to stop Solas, but even then being cynical I just don't see Bioware changing their setting so radically.

[Aren]

Solas *is* planning something that includes worldwide genocide as a side effect. I think one can be excused to think that any redeeming qualities he might have fail to balance this.

 

It is actually rather astonishing that this doesn't make him unattractive, especially since whoever romanced him in DAI would be among the dead.

Poor Loghain i remember that fandom wasn't so indulgent with him but i guess romances fix everything good old Bsn!

[midnight tea]

I'm not really sure. I'm not sure whether he sees the destruction of the current world as a necessity of his plan or a regrettable but unavoidable consequence of it.

 

Considering that he says "I will save the elven people, even if this world must die" or "I intend to restore them. Doing so will most likely destroy your world" I'd say he views it as a sad consequence. But it also means that the world's destruction isn't his goal, nor he sees it as a necessity.

 

But in both cases I'd say that he'd try and avoid the destruction if he thought it's possible. Him agreeing that what he's doing is horrible, but the only option he thinks is left to him, his stopping of the Qunari and saving even generally disliked Inquistor to avoid more bloodshed, as well as saying to befriended Inquisitor who vows to prove him that he doesn't have to destroy this world "I will treasure the chance to be wrong again" kinda speaks for itself.