4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Xerrai]

What you just described is lies of omissions. Lies of omissions are still lies thus deceit. 

 

Umm, yeah? The word I literally used was "deceives". It was kinda already right there. So what's your point?

[Almostfaceman]

I've already stated that him explaining his plan is more for the player's benefit than the protagonist's. If it was just the Inquisitor, Solas would have absolutely no logical reason to reveal his plan to the Inquisitor. With a high enough approval he even mentions that but continues anyway. Revealing his plans just puts them in jeopardy. He gains nothing by it, but risks everything. Bioware was using that moment to explain to the players where they were going with the story. 

 

I agree that one of the reasons Bioware had this scene was for player exposition. 

 

Here comes the BUT.

 

BUT...

 

It's also true that Bioware chose to have Solas say all these things, making them part of the character of Solas. 

 

Bioware could have picked other ways to relay all the information passed along to us through Solas. 

[lynroy]

I can't help but think of these words between romanced Inquisitor and Solas.
"You really don't let anyone see under that polite mask you wear, do you?"
"You saw more than most."

[Xerrai]

I can't help but think of these words between romanced Inquisitor and Solas.
"You really don't let anyone see under that polite mask you wear, do you?"
"You saw more than most."

 

Yep. Always trying to keep the Inquisitor's at arms length, never trying to let the Inquisitor see past his self-made emotional walls. A real bad case of "No. Do not get too close to me."

 

For Solas, it is mostly a mater of emotional distance, as opposed to fabrication.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

To lighten the mood, all this talk about perspectives and deceit of old magical people reminded me of this video:

[Almostfaceman]

I can't help but think of these words between romanced Inquisitor and Solas.
"You really don't let anyone see under that polite mask you wear, do you?"
"You saw more than most."

 

We did, the game constantly told us when he liked or didn't like stuff without him having to reveal it to anyone else. 

 

[midnight tea]

 

If he cared about the consequences, he wouldn't do it and find another way. 

 

a.) You don't know if he didn't try to find another way. He explicitly states that he thinks what he plans to do are the only options left to him.

b.) at the end of Trespasser he pretty much jeopardizes himself in order to save the leader of one of the most powerful organizations in the world - if it's a friend or a lover, it's pretty much for an explicit reason for them to try and find another way.

 

Please, share Patrick Weeke's words on the matter. Just try to use the actual quotes this time, and not change them around like you've done before. 

 

Where did I change anything around? I paraphrased what he said, but the gist of it is exactly what I wrote it to be. I mean, there's no going around it - Weekes in that interview destroys your perception of Solas. Whether he says that Solas is flawed, or a holier-than-thou hypocrite, doesn't change the fact that he said that he hopes that even people who dislike him should know that he's smarter than the whole "I will destroy the world for my people" BS and there's probably something more to it. He tells us - in explicit terms - that Solas is NOT a simplistic villain, and is in fact deeply conflicted and in many regards very similar to Mordin: someone who is moral and intellectually honest enough before himself to dig into the issue that gnaws at him.

 

And since you've listened to Cant Talk media, here's more: in Nerd Appropriate interview there are excerpts like this: "I can write a pretty serviceable villan and h will probably say snarky things at you, but that's the best I've got. [...] But if you tell me 'write someone who is morally conflicted, or someone who is doing something awful for what he thinks is a fully moral reason - that's where I can really dig my teeth into it. I kinda feel the same about Mordin."; "He is always the person who's going to look for more thoughtful solutions, he's always someone who... if you look at his banters - one of things I kinda tossed out to people, since I can't really give any hard answers is: if you want to understand Solas listen to the things that he brings up on his own"; "He is one of the strongest believers in freedom of personal thought."; he of course tells us there that he wrote the romance to make it sadder and confirms that he genuinely cares about Inquisitor. When asked if he cried when writing Solas, he confirms that he does. In fact when asked in Twitter if Solas ever broke down and cried, he says that yes, absolutely.

 

And here's an excerpt from a PAX South panel where he goes even more in depth into it:

"Well, I think it would have been really easy for Solas to just come off as too much of a villain.  And I really tried to take every step that I could to humanize him.  And part of that was making him more emotionally available in that way.  Um, and showing that he really, genuinely cared about you.  Um, and the other members of the Inquisition.  Uh, it’s one of the reasons he has such a close relationship with Cole, it’s one of the reasons, uh, that he, y'know, is so respectful of Cassandra even if he disagrees with her about a lot of things and it’s one of the reasons that we decided to make him a romance."

 

Also, in yet unpublicized part of interview for VGS, which was related on twitter a few months back, Weeks also reveals that first drafts of Solas had the character lie way more than he does in his final form - which weakened him a character. Guess what - they didn't go with it. He lies by omission - he hardly ever straightforwardly lies. I know that for you that probably hardly even matters, but it definitely goes against you claiming that he's just a lying 'persona' wielding scoundrel who fakes almost everything (except, you know, attempting genocide and killing people he totally doesn't care about - that thing is true! )

 

And here's another interview with Weekes:

[DA]: In addition to dealing with the world’s perception of mages, he’s also elven. How does he deal with that much adversity?

[PW]: Honestly, Solas hates people who look at him and just see an elf. He considers that kind of attitude part of the black-and-white dichotomy that has led to so much tragedy in the Dragon Age world. Templars versus mages, demons versus spirits, elves versus humans… it’s more complicated than that. Come to think of it, ”It’s more complicated than that,” may actually be Solas’s battle cry.

[Hellion Rex]

At this stage, I truly am curious if Bioware will give us a final choice regarding what will happen to Solas or simply let us have no say. I would almost like the latter option and let the narrative play out naturally.

[midnight tea]

At this stage, I truly am curious if Bioware will give us a final choice regarding what will happen to Solas or simply let us have no say. I would almost like the latter option and let the narrative play out naturally.

 

That would just be bizarre - why would they build up his reveal ever since DAO and then just... drop everything? Kinda makes no sense. I suppose it could be one of the greatest trolling moments in video game history, but not the trolling majority of players would appreciate.

 

Also - so long as we get more DA and things go the way BW wants it to go, Patrick Weekes said on his Twitter that we will eventually get a conclusion, and there probably will not be just one option to deal with Solas.

 

Also, recently we got this:

 

Mark Darrah ‏@BioMarkDarrah

Oooh what's this? Oh sorry

 

https://twitter.com/...022641623437312

 

Spoiler

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Screen_Shot_3.jpg

 

[Hellion Rex]

My thought process during that final confrontation of Trespasser was this: If Solas truly didn't want to go through with this, then why is he? In my opinion, it's not enough for him to say "I have to do this" and "I have no choice". To me, that's absolute BS. If he truly didn't want to kill us all, then simply don't. You always have a choice. And as of now, we have no proof that there is anything at all stopping him from abandoning his plans, nothing abrogating him from free choice.

[Hellion Rex]

 

 

That would just be bizarre - why would they build up his reveal ever since DAO and then just... drop everything? Kinda makes no sense. I suppose it could be one of the greatest trolling moments in video game history, but not the trolling majority of players would appreciate.

 

Also - so long as we get more DA and things go the way BW wants it to go, Patrick Weekes said on his Twitter that we will eventually get a conclusion, and there probably will not be just one option to deal with Solas.

 

Also, recently we got this:

 

 

I disagree. My point is that I can see a single particular conclusion to the arc being set into stone, not a bifurcated choice, but you may change the "flavor" of it, the "tone" so to speak, by your choices or your given relationship with Solas in previous games.

[Almostfaceman]

My thought process during that final confrontation of Trespasser was this: If Solas truly didn't want to go through with this, then why is he? In my opinion, it's not enough for him to say "I have to do this" and "I have no choice". To me, that's absolute BS. If he truly didn't want to kill us all, then simply don't. You always have a choice. And as of now, we have no proof that there is anything at all stopping him from abandoning his plans, nothing abrogating him from free choice.

 

So, if Solas is in a situation like Shepard was in when he/she destroyed the Batarian colony, does he have a choice? 

[midnight tea]

Yep. Always trying to keep the Inquisitor's at arms length, never trying to let the Inquisitor see past his self-made emotional walls. A real bad case of "No. Do not get too close to me."

 

For Solas, it is mostly a mater of emotional distance, as opposed to fabrication.

 

And why wouldn't he be emotionally distanced?

 

Matters of his plans for to the world, thousands years of sleep and disassociation aside, one of his biggest problems - if not THE biggest - are his deep trust issues.

It's hinted at multiple times in the game (paraphrasing - Inky: "You should rely on your friends!" Solas: "I've learned not to do that, Inquisitor."; Inky: "I trust my friends!" Solas: "I remember that mistake so well I can carve the angles of her face from memory"; "Only ally can betray you. Betrayal is always worse."; "It's been so long since I could trust someone"; "I've been on my own for so long it's difficult to get used to support of others.", Solas to romanced Lavellan in Trespasser: "What would you have me say? That I was a great adversary in your people's mythology?" Lavellan: "I would have that you trust me!" Solas: *is made speechless and hangs his head in shame*).

 

At the moment Solas seems to be literally unable to trust. Anyone, probably not even himself on some levels. He may want to, but apparently he's been so singed by betrayal that happened in the past that it left him broken in that regard. So it's no wonder that he keeps his emotions close to himself - he doesn't want to be seen as vulnerable and have someone spot any opening that could undo him. That he leaves an opening for Inquisitor almost seems like kinda a miracle. I sort of predict that future game *may* have an option to have Solas re-learn how to trust - not just his new (or old?) friends, but probably people in general; to trust them enough to be able to take care of themselves or any threat that may yet come.

[midnight tea]

I disagree. My point is that I can see a single particular conclusion to the arc being set into stone, not a bifurcated choice, but you may change the "flavor" of it, the "tone" so to speak, by your choices or your given relationship with Solas in previous games.

 

Oh, I don't know about that - there's a big difference between "I want to possibly redeem him" and "I want to stop/kill him" and Weekes said on his Twitter that they'd try and honor many approaches to dealing with that particular arc. Depending where they go with the plot ending up sort of on the same narrative spot doesn't necessarily requires having singular conclusion, and that's even if it would be a main objective of the game.

[Hellion Rex]

So, if Solas is in a situation like Shepard was in when he/she destroyed the Batarian colony, does he have a choice? 

That's a fair analogy, I suppose. In that given situtation, we would be the Batarian colony, with Shepard being equivalent to Solas. And yes, you always have a choice. It's a terrible choice in Shepard's situation, but he still made the choice to destroy the relay. Until we have proof that Solas's free will has been compromised in some way, then yes, it's still a choice, freely made.

[midnight tea]

My thought process during that final confrontation of Trespasser was this: If Solas truly didn't want to go through with this, then why is he? In my opinion, it's not enough for him to say "I have to do this" and "I have no choice". To me, that's absolute BS. If he truly didn't want to kill us all, then simply don't. You always have a choice. 

 

As noble it is to always try and look for another choice, it's naive to think that there will always be a convenient 3rd way that will let us have eat a cookie and have a cookie too. And even Solas's author said that Solas is *always* someone who looks for more thoughtful solution - and we see that in the game. So it's too simplistic and OOC to think that he didn't just think this through. Saying "just don't do that" means nothing, because it's not always a solution - NOR a better choice.

 

Even Leliana explains it to us when we have to pick new Emperor of Orlais, as much as're unhappy with that - inaction is also a choice. In that regard it would be a choice to give Cory exactly what he wants.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Midnight Tea:

First, thank you for posting all of that. I had already read and listened to those things, but I appreciate the time and effort you put into your post. 

 

Now then, I need to clarify with you about how I view Solas. I don't view him in the simplistic terms you are implying I am. In fact, it is the opposite. I understand Solas' perspective, motivations, misgivings, etc as well as what Patrick Weekes wanted the character to be. For me, that's just not enough to be on your side of the fence. Many of the worst people in human history are absolutely fascinating to study, but that doesn't change the fact they are among the worst people in human history. Same with Solas. He is a fascinating villain, but still a villain nonetheless. 

[Hellion Rex]

Oh, I don't know about that - there's a big difference between "I want to possibly redeem him" and "I want to stop/kill him" and Weekes said on his Twitter that they'd try and honor many approaches to dealing with that particular arc. Depending where they go with the plot ending up sort of on the same narrative spot doesn't necessarily requires having singular conclusion, and that's even if it would be a main objective of the game.

Despite what Weekes is said, they're gonna do what is best for narrative and what is most feasible narratively speaking. So they may not be able to uphold what they have said.

[midnight tea]

Despite what Weekes is said, they're gonna do what is best for narrative and what is most feasible narratively speaking. So they may not be able to uphold what they have said.

 

It's possible. This is why I said that it's what may happen when things go according to what BioWare wants to do with the game. But it also means that this is what they wish to do, as of now.

[Almostfaceman]

That's a fair analogy, I suppose. In that given situtation, we would be the Batarian colony, with Shepard being equivalent to Solas. And yes, you always have a choice. It's a terrible choice in Shepard's situation, but he still made the choice to destroy the relay. Until we have proof that Solas's free will has been compromised in some way, then yes, it's still a choice, freely made.

 

Right, but it's a lousy choice. Because in reality, it's a choice that involves killing 300,000 to give trillions more time to prepare for the Reapers. 

 

I know what choice I'd make, every single time. I'd kill those Batarians. 

 

So when you say "If he truly didn't want to kill us all, then simply don't." we find out the choice may not be so simple. It may be a choice with two really crappy results, where either lots of people die, or lots of people die but it gives a lot more people a chance to live. 

[Hellion Rex]

 So it's too simplistic and OOC to think that he didn't just think this through. Saying "just don't do that" means nothing, because it's not always a solution - NOR a better choice.

 

Even Leliana explains it to us when we have to pick new Emperor of Orlais, as much as're unhappy with that - inaction is also a choice.

Knowing Solas though, I would counter that by saying while I do agree that he "thought it through" and looked for other options, I think that the answers available were simply not ones that he wanted to hear, ones that lacked the ability to both restore his world while respecting the current one. Inaction is indeed a choice and I have never claimed otherwise. And I'd damn well argue that it is the better choice when the alternative is making the world burn to return a romantic reality that long should have remained dead and gone.  

[Almostfaceman]

to return a romantic reality that long should have remained dead and gone.  

 

I think it may be about something else, since Solas doesn't really regard the past in a romantic sense. 

[midnight tea]

Knowing Solas though, I would counter that by saying while I do agree that he "thought it through" and looked for other options, I think that the answers available were simply not ones that he wanted to hear, ones that lacked the ability to both restore his world while respecting the current one. Inaction is indeed a choice and I have never claimed otherwise. And I'd damn well argue that it is the better choice when the alternative is making the world burn to return a romantic reality that long should have remained dead and gone.  

 

Er... what romantic reality? Solas is not trying to restore Elvenhan - he even tells to Dorian that it was no better than Tevinter in its time and he destroyed it once already. What he tries to do is restore people's conscious connection with the Fade and the world to what appears to be its natural state. He recognizes that it wan't a perfect world, in fact he can state since early in the game that the Veilless world is not without danger and peril. But he also states that current world is actually much worse than it was before. That should tell us something.

[Hellion Rex]

Right, but it's a lousy choice. Because in reality, it's a choice that involves killing 300,000 to give trillions more time to prepare for the Reapers. 

 

I know what choice I'd make, every single time. I'd kill those Batarians. 

 

So when you say "If he truly didn't want to kill us all, then simply don't." we find out the choice may not be so simple. It may be a choice with two really crappy results, where either lots of people die, or lots of people die but it gives a lot more people a chance to live. 

But as of now, from the information we have at this given moment, the stakes are NOT the same. In this scenario, we are sacrificing a majority to save a small minority. It's the reverse in Mass Effect. 

 

And with current info, we have no proof that inaction truly is a worse option.

[Almostfaceman]

But as of now, from the information we have at this given moment, the stakes are NOT the same. In this scenario, we are sacrificing a majority to save a small minority. It's the reverse in Mass Effect. 

 

And with current info, we have no proof that inaction truly is a worse option.

 

The stakes are actually murky, since we don't have all the facts. It may turn out to be just as you describe, or it may not. 

 

I'd be surprised if it were that simple, Weekes goes to all this trouble to make Solas this complicated character, or what he considers a complicated character, only to give us the player an incredibly easy decision in how to deal with his choice. 

 

Because right now, yes, if it turns out that the situation clarifies itself to be exactly as you describe, it's an incredibly easy decision to make. Solas has to be stopped, killed, imprisoned, his forces defeated.