4635 réponses à ce sujet

[maia0407]

Drop the condescension. The only one being narrow-minded and acting like your perspective is superior is you.

Thats one helluva knee jerk defensive reaction to my critique of the binary thinkers on this thread. I guess that includes you if your reaction is any indication. Care to explain what exactly I'm being narrow minded about? I haven't told anyone on this thread that their perspective is wrong. I haven't twisted their words and accused them of stuff they haven't said. Several of the Solas haters have done exactly that. If calling that nonsense out causes you angst I can only assume you are one of those people that uses those tactics. *shrugs*

[Almostfaceman]

Solas is pretty much pure chaotic evil as far as I know... he wants to destroy the entire world//most people in it and replace with some "friends."  

 

Even Edwin was more conscionable, to be honest. 

 

As to why girls/guys would be into that.. I er.. don't know... not being one of them, he is not the kind of character I like, to say the least. 

 

Chaotic evil huh? 

 

 

The developers don't agree with you. http://forum.bioware...uch/?p=20227582

[midnight tea]

Drop the condescension. The only one being narrow-minded and acting like your perspective is superior is you. 

 

Ow, ow, ow, so much psychological projection.

[Seraphim24]

 

Chaotic evil huh? 

 

 

The developers don't agree with you. http://forum.bioware...uch/?p=20227582

 

So? Just my opinion. 

 

Maybe they designed him as lawful good, he came off as chaotic evil to me ultimately. Who can say why that is... nonetheless.. what people intend and what people perceive or experience are sometimes different /shrug. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Thats one helluva knee jerk defensive reaction to my critique of the binary thinkers on this thread. I guess that includes you if your reaction is any indication. Care to explain what exactly I'm being narrow minded about? I haven't told anyone on this thread that their perspective is wrong. I haven't twisted their words and accused them of stuff they haven't said. Several of the Solas haters have done exactly that. If calling that nonsense out causes you angst I can only assume you are one of those people that uses those tactics. *shrugs*

You should learn not to assume things. I have not done as you assume.

I just don't like people insulting others. And yes, saying that those who think in a black and white mentality do so because they are mentally limited is being insulting towards others. 

[Almostfaceman]

So? Just my opinion. 

 

So why would you disregard what the developers have to say? 

[Seraphim24]

So why would you disregard what the developers have to say? 

 

I don't disregard it, it's as I say.. 

 

"Maybe they designed him as lawful good, he came off as chaotic evil to me ultimately. Who can say why that is... nonetheless.. what people intend and what people perceive or experience are sometimes different /shrug."

[Secret Rare]

I guess it's not really surprising that black and white thinkers with inflexible world views...

They can't help viewing the world from their own lens and seem unable to grasp that not everyone thinks like them. Appreciation of nuance is beyond their tool set.

 I'm calling the narrow mindedness like I see it; if some of you see yourself in that description, I can't help if you find it insulting.

A lie become truth only if a person wanna believe it.

Does it really matter  how you want to  define us in this thread?

[lynroy]

"Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen."

[Almostfaceman]

I don't disregard it, it's as I say.. 

 

"Maybe they designed him as lawful good, he came off as chaotic evil to me ultimately. Who can say why that is... nonetheless.. what people intend and what people perceive or experience are sometimes different /shrug."

 

Okay, so what do you think of what they say? 

[maia0407]

You should learn not to assume things. I have not done as you assume.
I just don't like people insulting others. And yes, saying that those who think in a black and white mentality do so because they are mentally limited is being insulting towards others.

I disagree. Are you arguing that a black and white mentality isn't mentally limiting? By its very description it inherently limits thought as there is no room for any perspective other than that binary position. So, accurately describing black and white thinking is an insult? I guess there is wisdom in the old saying that the 'truth hurts'.

[midnight tea]

Actually i think that he is so good at faking his own persona that managed to fools everyone damn well.

Remember that this is the person who was playing the part of the polite apostate and at the same time was the head of a network of spies in your  organization.

 

Since when being a "polite apostate" somehow excludes the possibility of being the head of a spy network? I mean, you realize what the word 'apostate' means, aside from in-game context of non-Circle mage? It means "a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle." And Fen'Harel/Solas was just that. So Solas was indeed then an apostate for a very long time. And he also happens to be pretty polite through pretty much entirety of the game, including Trespasser, where the wolf is out of the bag.

 

It's funny to see to just how many extremes and bizarre conclusions some people can come to. It seems that doesn't matter if Solas himself basically states that he wasn't faking his persona, nor what his own author says about him - no, you of course know the best.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Ow, ow, ow, so much psychological projection.

You were opposed to this kind of thing earlier, so where is your opposition now? Or is it because it isn't you being targeted suddenly it's okay? 

 

I disagree. Are you arguing that a black and white mentality isn't mentally limiting? By its very description it inherently limits thought as there is no room for any perspective other than that binary position. So, accurately describing black and white thinking is an insult? I guess there is wisdom in the old saying that the 'truth hurts'.

You can disagree all you want. You are still wrong. 

You were stating that those who see the world in black and white are too mentally limited to see nuance. That is both insulting and incorrect.

[Seraphim24]

Okay, so what do you think of what they say? 

 

I don't really distinguish between people who "do evil because they think it's a good moral reason to them" and people who just "do evil." I think that's not especially common, but when all is said and done it's just a very weak excuse to me, even if sort of technically "true" on some level. 

 

I think that's why I called him "chaotic evil" it's chaos as much as evil, maybe I'd say he was higher on the chaotic scale than on the evil scale. I mean you could even say he's Chaotic Neutral (almost like a mad scientist) and in the case of DA that ended up being a lot of evil I suppose. 

 

In no world do I see him as "good aligned," but I suppose, I don't know, given the right environment and circumstances, a situation where there is no break with his personal past that he is so attahced to, a nice Elven Palace or whatever all his needs are met and there wasn't any problem to begin with, maybe he doesn't try and tear the world apart (since he's "Chaotic neutral).

 

It seems over the course of the game, you learn that Solas isn't, itself so disruptive, but is hyper-reactionary towards things that disruptive towards him, such as in the case of the clash with the spirit mage and such. 

 

But honestly, like I say, just my opinion, 

 

And for the purposes of the game, things do go wrong, and he does a lot of harm. The fact that he appears on some level, to relish the destruction in an angry sort of way, and appears to state clearly that the loss of life is no consequence, for pretty obviously not good goals, is why I assigned "evil" as a characteristic, but I guess, since you are pressing the point, I think Chaotic Neutral is perhaps somewhat appropriate as well. 

 

At any rate, regardless of intentions, needs, whatever, for the purposes of the game, he does a lot of harm, similar to other "evil" characters, perhaps even more than those that intended as such. 

 

And for my purposes, that isn't appealing, well, to say the least, it's downright mega terrible, regardless of the reasons behind it. 

[Secret Rare]

Since when being a "polite apostate" somehow excludes the possibility of being the head of a spy network?

Since when being an ally and at the same time a spy who is doing his own interest isn't a backstab in the back?

 

 

It's funny to see to just how many extremes and bizarre conclusions some people can come to.

It's funny how you keep to get hold of the wrong end of the stick  while  fighting your own imaginary battles.

[Almostfaceman]

I don't really distinguish between people who "do evil because they think it's a good moral reason to them" and people who just "do evil." I think that's not especially common, but when all is said and done it's just a very weak excuse to me, even if sort of technically "true" on some level. 

 

I think that's why I called him "chaotic evil" it's chaos as much as evil, maybe I'd say he was higher on the chaotic scale than on the evil scale. I mean you could even say he's Chaotic Neutral (almost like a mad scientist) and in the case of DA that ended up being a lot of evil I suppose. 

 

In no world do I see him as "good aligned," but I suppose, I don't know, given the right environment and circumstances, a nice Elven Palace or whatever all his needs are met, maybe he doesn't try and tear the world apart (since he's "Chaotic neutral).

 

It seems over the course of the game, you learn that Solas isn't, itself so disruptive, but is hyper-reactionary towards things that disruptive towards him, such as in the case of the clash with the spirit mage and such. 

 

But honestly, like I say, just my opinion, 

 

And for the purposes of the game, things do go wrong, and he does a lot of harm. The fact that he appears on some level, to relish the destruction in an angry sort of way is why I assigned "evil" as a characteristic, but I guess, since you are pressing the point, I think Chaotic Neutral is perhaps somewhat appropriate as well. 

 

But for the purposes of the game, he does a lot of harm, similar to other "evil" characters, perhaps even more than those that intended as such. 

 

That's all I've been interested in, is why you have your opinion. 

 

If you were put in his position, where you had to save the world and you did... but things still turned out crap... would you consider yourself evil? 

 

Then, after you answer that question, let's move to his next action, which is taking down the Veil. This will cause a bunch of death and destruction. That's bad, we both agree on that.

 

But we don't know all the facts yet either. 

 

So, some guy who was willing to free slaves and tried to save the world is saying he has no choice when it comes to lowering the Veil. What if that means he's in a no-win situation? It seems plausible, since a guy who saves the world must care about the world. 

 

What if he's got just terrible choices in front of him? Bioware has done this before, they did it when Shepard had to destroy an entire Batarian colony. 

 

So, I'm holding out until we get more facts in DA4. Before I call him evil. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just explaining my reasoning. 

[midnight tea]

You were opposed to this kind of thing earlier, so where is your opposition now? Or is it because it isn't you, doing what you are opposed to is okay? 

 

I don't recall ever opposing calling out people for their BS (and the moment you bring here actually called out a user for dismissing someone's neutral opinion as silly when they themselves proved to have little to no understanding of the subject) - in fact, I've done that multiple times. And it so happens that you deserve some calling out. Even now you claim that you don't like insulting people, while many of your comments have done exactly that. You may not see it... but that's sort of the problem.

[Secret Rare]

  I guess there is wisdom in the old saying that the 'truth hurts'.

Having the certainty to possess the truth isn't a form of black and white thinking?

Are you becoming black and white grey lord?

Oh don't mind me i like whenever these colors pop up  but i admit that i don't like grey i like more pink even if i don't know what it entail in terms of a pseudo philosophical rambling.

[Seraphim24]

That's all I've been interested in, is why you have your opinion. 

 

If you were put in his position, where you had to save the world and you did... but things still turned out crap... would you consider yourself evil? 

 

Then, after you answer that question, let's move to his next action, which is taking down the Veil. This will cause a bunch of death and destruction. That's bad, we both agree on that.

 

But we don't know all the facts yet either. 

 

So, some guy who was willing to free slaves and tried to save the world is saying he has no choice when it comes to lowering the Veil. What if that means he's in a no-win situation? It seems plausible, since a guy who saves the world must care about the world. 

 

What if he's got just terrible choices in front of him? Bioware has done this before, they did it when Shepard had to destroy an entire Batarian colony. 

 

So, I'm holding out until we get more facts in DA4. Before I call him evil. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm just explaining my reasoning. 

 

Everything you just wrote and queried is predicated on the notion I accept the world was at stake but for his actions, which I just don't buy the logic in the first place at all, so it kind of renders my ability to interact with the other questions somewhat moot. 

 

Like, he seems pretty clearly motivated by reasons that make no sense to me, and go with a chaotic evil sort of theme, regardless of what any developer has to say about it. 

 

At absolute most "favorable" (in the minds of some I guess) I would say like "chaotic neutral" and his damage is an outgrowth of a kind of "amoral" perspective in general, like I say, not "I hate X" but "I concluded through logic that X is necessary to prevent or save Y." For some reason, people assume this means such people are entitled to such a distinction, and I speculated that that was the reason for the divide between my feelings and the developers. 

 

I also speculated maybe in certain environments Solas didn't become this evil person that wanted to cause lots of destruction, and simply lived a life of well, Solace, apart from people. It might not make him any more palatable person, fundamentally, but at least there isn't a trail of destruction. 

 

But seriously, who cares if you thought you were doing the right thing? What matters if you actually were or weren't, and he most certainly was not. 

 

In fact, they kind of honestly made that pretty blatant to me. 

[lynroy]

srsly

[maia0407]

Having the certainty to possess the truth isn't a form of black and white thinking?
Are you becoming black and white grey lord?
Oh don't mind me i like whenever these colors pop up but i admit that i don't like grey i like more pink even if i don't know what it entail in terms of a pseudo philosophical rambling.

Are you arguing with the definition of black and white thinking that I laid out? If so, please provide an alternate definition for consideration. Right now you've just demonstrated that you don't like what I said without providing any context as to why you think my definition is wrong.

I'm going with you feel insulted as well so you're tying to needle a few sads out of me, lol!

I have to note, some of you people on this thread come up with the weirdest word salad and non sequiturs when you have no point to make. Sometimes I just hope it's a language barrier preventing me from making sense of what you are saying; but I'm starting to think it's more of a defense mechanism to confuse the person you are arguing with. I admire Midnight's ability to tease coherence out of some of the word salad on here. I just give up which is probably the point, lol!

ETA: Bayonet, just no. Your pics would be cute if they didn't use "******". As many go arounds as I've had with you, I've never reported you until now. Why do you always manage to insert your dislike of women into every thread? Don't answer, I don't care.

[midnight tea]

 

Since when being an ally and at the same time a spy who is doing his own interest isn't a backstab in the back?

 

You flew far away from original point. I'm talking about bizarre assumption that apparently being a "polite apostate" - which is apparently his fake persona, despite evidence to the contrary - somehow clashes with having a spy network.

 

It's the same with Solas being an ally - I'm not saying that what he's done is not a backstab. Solas himself says in Trespasser (to friend!Inky who'd try and attack him) that in his position he'd share their anger. But the fact that he has a secret mission and spy organization doesn't yet means that everything he's done with Inquisition was an act, NOR makes him less of an ally during time of Inquisition - it just so happens that it makes him an ally of convenience. He did indeed wanted Inquisition to succeed after all. He risked his life on numerous occasions, while realistically he could just have used his agents. He even gave Inky his old fortress (described by Morrigan as a place protected from evil by ancient magic and hinted at the game to be a place where the Veil was actually created) - a fact that has also cemented their choice as a leader of Inquisition.

[Lezio]

It's pretty amazing isn't it? And then, after pages upon pages of demonstrating acute bias or lack of reading comprehension or simply lack of will to read what is exactly written some people get all dramatic about the fact that sometimes people are called wrong, blind or, on some rare occasion, childish. Because what else could that be? The position of some is patently clear "Solas is all kinds of wrong and something is wrong with you for liking/getting/sympathizing with him, and when you utter a single word of support for Solas or point out the complexity of situation you're obviously absolving him from every single fault he has" 

 

Yeah, i mean in my every single post about, well, everything you will find no presence of words like "Personally, in my opinion, from my perspective, to my eyes", wanna know why? Because i truly believe that my word is fact and if someone else thinks differently than they are, quite obviously, stupid, horrible people who deserve death by Snu Snu

I mean, just look at what i said in this topic, i never stated and/or argued Solas' costant inconstancy when it comes to what he says and what he does, never brought proof of my motivations facts, i just said stated as universal truth that everyone should hate him

 

/s

 

I really do like, though, how someone who has a different opinion, and specifies over and over again that it's just an opinion, is not allowed to get a little frustrated at being called, implicitly and explicitly, multiple times throughout a conversation, too simpleminded to understand the character, his motivations, hell, to comprehend the truth present before him and so far and so on. And if he does get frustrated, well that person is obviously insulting Solas' fandom as a whole

 

It's amazing, really

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Solas is not an ally and has never been one. Solas is his own man doing his own thing. He only allied with you because you were a useful tool to him, or at least you became one after the Disney-esque singing.

 

Its not very different from Morrigan who went with the Warden because the Wardens were a useful tool to her, a way for her to possibly obtain Urthemiel's soul and if you don't acquiesce to her sperm jacking, she leaves you.

 

Likewise, once the Orb had been destroyed and Corypheus was killed, Solas left you. That's right - He could have stayed there and "be your friend" and kept the Mark from going berserk. However, he left because he did not get what he was really after - his Orb.

[Almostfaceman]

Everything you just wrote and queried is predicated on the notion I accept the world was at stake but for his actions, which I just don't buy the logic in the first place at all, so it kind of renders my ability to interact with the other questions somewhat moot. 

 

 

Well, it's not logic. It's what he says happens. 

 

Do you have an explanation for why you think he lied when all he had to do was kill you? When he tells you that he saved the world by imprisoning the Evanuris, he literally has nothing to gain by lying. At the end of Trespasser, the Mark on your hand is killing you. All he had to do was let it kill you. Or kill you himself... at that point he was killing Qunari by turning them to stone. 

 

Then you have the devs saying that Solas really cares for the people of Thedas and for the Inquisitor, that it isn't an act.