4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Well, it's not logic. It's what he says happens. 

 

Do you have an explanation for why you think he lied when all he had to do was kill you? When he tells you that he saved the world by imprisoning the Evanuris, he literally has nothing to gain by lying. At the end of Trespasser, the Mark on your hand is killing you. All he had to do was let it kill you. Or kill you himself... at that point he was killing Qunari by turning them to stone. 

 

Then you have the devs saying that Solas really cares for the people of Thedas and for the Inquisitor, that it isn't an act. 

 

Right, and people say all kinds of things. 

 

The only basis Solas has for asserting that Evanuris was evil and going to destroy the world was that apparently they were "arrogant" and that they murdered Mythal. 

 

The Mythal thing is a great tragedy and all that, apparently, according to all the records at least, it is also not sufficient to conclude that the Evanuris were therefore on a path to destroy the entire world.

 

Unless I am missing a bunch of codex entries or something. 

[maia0407]

Right, and people say all kinds of things. 
 
The only basis Solas has for asserting that Evanuris was evil and going to destroy the world was that apparently they were "arrogant" and that they murdered Mythal. 
 
The Mythal thing is a great tragedy and all that, apparently, according to all the records at least, it is also not sufficient to conclude that the Evanuris were therefore on a path to destroy the entire world.
 
Unless I am missing a bunch of codex entries or something.

Descent showed that the Evanuris were killing Titans for power, the beings that are integral to the world. It's possible that Solas had to lock away the Evanuris to prevent futher harm to the world by killing Titans.

[Almostfaceman]

Right, and people say all kinds of things. 

 

The only basis Solas has for asserting that Evanuris was evil and going to destroy the world was that apparently they were "arrogant" and that they murdered Mythal. 

 

The Mythal thing is a great tragedy and all that, apparently, according to all the records at least, it is also not sufficient to conclude that the Evanuris were therefore on a path to destroy the entire world.

 

Unless I am missing a bunch of codex entries or something. 

 

There are several things Solas says about this and that are hinted at in the codex entries. The Evanuris seemed to be in the habit of hurling their followers at each other resulting in "oceans of blood". Mythal would intervene by convincing the Evanuris to use "champions" to settle differences so only one person died instead of thousands of people. Then there's hints the Evanuris were messing with these massive creatures called Titans. Solas was for some reason convinced that the world was in danger. 

 

If I was in his place and I thought the world was in danger, I'd do some pretty extreme stuff to save the world. Also, I wouldn't consider saving the world a bad thing. 

[Seraphim24]

Descent showed that the Evanuris were killing Titans for power, the beings that are integral to the world. It's possible that Solas had to lock away the Evanuris to prevent futher harm to the world by killing Titans.

 

 

There are several things Solas says about this and that are hinted at in the codex entries. The Evanuris seemed to be in the habit of hurling their followers at each other resulting in "oceans of blood". Mythal would intervene by convincing the Evanuris to use "champions" to settle differences so only one person died instead of thousands of people. Then there's hints the Evanuris were messing with these massive creatures called Titans. Solas was for some reason convinced that the world was in danger. 

 

If I was in his place and I thought the world was in danger, I'd do some pretty extreme stuff to save the world. Also, I wouldn't consider saving the world a bad thing. 

 

Well that very last statement is a strawman, I believe.... 

 

Anyway, Evanuris civil war, Mythal uses champions... "messing" around with Titans. 

 

None of that, in my opinion, is enough to conclude that Evanuris is going to destroy the world. 

 

I mean really civil war? Even a bloody and catastrophic one? That's one of the most common occurrences in human history. It might not be pleasant or desirable but it certainly happens without turning into a global conflagration. 

 

And none of this even gets to the second and equally important question of whether Solas's actions were an appropriate response, which they just seemed to me very clearly not. 

[Almostfaceman]

Well that very last statement is a strawman, I believe. 

 

Anyway, Evanuris civil war, Mythal uses champions... "messing" around with Titans. 

 

None of that, in my opinion, is enough to conclude that Evanuris is going to destroy the world. 

 

I mean really civil war? That's one of the most common occurrences in human history. 

 

And none of this even gets to the second and equally important question of whether Solas's actions were an appropriate response, which they just seemed to me very clearly not. 

 

So you think Solas is lying when he says he thought the world was in danger? 

[maia0407]

Well that very last statement is a strawman, I believe.

Anyway, Evanuris civil war, Mythal uses champions... "messing" around with Titans.

None of that, in my opinion, is enough to conclude that Evanuris is going to destroy the world.

I mean really civil war? Even a bloody and catastrophic one? That's one of the most common occurrences in human history.

And none of this even gets to the second and equally important question of whether Solas's actions were an appropriate response, which they just seemed to me very clearly not.

They weren't just 'messing around' with Titans; they were killing them. Titans are pillars of the earth and sing songs that shape the earth. Killing them would seem to have world ending repercussions.

[Seraphim24]

So you think Solas is lying when he says he thought the world was in danger? 

 

"Lying" is a strong term. I don't think he was maybe lying... I mean... here is a person that was around during the creation of the world or whatever with godlike beings and all this crazy stuff.

 

You got Elves who are creator/gods and demigods with magic, you have turmoil and strife, you have a lot of crazy stuff going on .

 

Maybe he was a hypersensitive elf that got too Zazzed my the proceedings, and mistook the boom and bustle of world creating or whatever,  maybe conflicts among creators, as some kind of Pinky and the Brain situation of taking over the world. 

 

Honestly if you think about his personality "Solas" and general preference for solitude, it sounds like he was kind of in the wrong place for his personality, to be frank, for starters. 

[Seraphim24]

They weren't just 'messing around' with Titans; they were killing them. Titans ate pillars of the earth and sing songs that shape the earth. Killing them would seem to have world ending repercussions.

 

That's not 100% true as far as I know..., Titans were the shapers of earth/mountains etc, at least according to some records. It's not specified who created them. 

 

Look, no one is saying these things are "good" but even the Earth has weathered severe cataclysms and natural disasters without it necessarily being "world encompassing." 

 

It's also not clear, can the Stone resurrect them, produce others? Do the Evanuris and Stone and shapers have a relationship? If so, what is it? Why were the Evanuris taking retribution on Titans? Why were they involved in the first place? Do creator responsibilities overlap? What are the exact repercussions to the death of a few titans? 

 

Again, no on is like "what a great situation" but it is definitely something, even if it produced great trauma, that did not appear to be world ending, or certainly have a clear goal as such. 

[maia0407]

That's not 100% true as far as I know..., Titans were the shapers of earth/mountains etc, at least according to some records. It's not specified who created them. 
 
Look, no one is saying these things are "good" but even the Earth has weathered severe cataclysms and natural disasters without it necessarily being "world encompassing." 
 
It's also not clear, can the Stone resurrect them, produce others? Do the Evanuris and Stone and shapers have a relationship? If so, what is it? Why were the Evanuris taking retribution on Titans? Why were they involved in the first place? Do creator responsibilities overlap? What are the exact repercussions to the death of a few titans? 
 
Again, no on is like "what a great situation" but it is definitely something, even if it produced great trauma, that did not appear to be world ending, or certainly have a clear goal as such.

Yes, but severe cataclysms that don't end the world usually produce mass casualties which is worrisome. You asked if you'd missed anything that the Evanuris had done that might give Solas reason to strip them of power. The answer is yes. Titans are beings that can 'control' stone and, as we've seen in Descent, cause dangerous earthquakes at minimum when upset. I'm just asking that you don't minimize the killing of the Titans as 'messing around' to support your idea that Solas had no reason to be concerned for the fate of the world.

[midnight tea]

Here is one reason why women love Solas:-

 

 

Here's another reason why women love Solas:-

 

 

 

I do hope that it's a joke. Because if it's not, it doesn't really put you in a very good light - I mean, it's not like all the 50 pages of this particular topic or 6k pages of Solas thread are ALL just about how much of a generous bad boy Solas is   And you've been there, discussing lore and character and story in tremendous depth or just making jokes or goofing around, and many times I got an impression that you've valued opinion of people there, since you sought it out on more than a few occasions - but apparently for you we're just shallow women who blindly love a guy for entirely superficial reasons... 

 

 

 

You do realize that you are talking about developers who like to retcon ahd change whatever they like on a whim ? I mean, we are talking about developers who like to retcon so much that the ending slides of a game they make has been regarded as rumor and hearsay and not definite.

 

Huh, that's a shot in the foot if I've ever seen one. You're basically saying that in order for Solas to be an evil(ish) or irredeemable bastard they'd have to retcon his character.

 

So again this happens - people don't know how to go around author's words, so they suddenly have to start claiming that there's a problem with the story or how it's written (or can be written).

 

I mean... never mind the fact that retconning a specific and well-established character or their motivations - especially characters of this caliber - pretty much never happened, and would be a tremendously stupid move after an epilogue DLC that is at the very same time a very clear set up for the next game AND the fact that we already have reasonable evidence to suspect that it will be a very close continuation of DAI anyhow. I'd also like to point out that some of those interviews are recent, which means that as of 1,5 of year into development of DA4 they still hold pretty tightly to their vision or characterization.

 

Plus, the fact that they've retconned some stuff hardly makes them "retconning things on a whim". As it stands the world of Dragon Age is fairly consistent (add to that the fact that a portion of accusations of retcons is people simply not understanding the story or its elements), and even more noticeable retcons like Leliana being alive got a pretty spectacular (in terms if reveals) sendoff.

 

As for epilogue slides - umm, what are you talking about? Is it about DAO slides, which they've admitted they've gone a bit too far into the future, since at that time they didn't know if they'd be able to make even a 2nd game, or do you mean that epilogue slides are written from an in-universe perspective?

....So? Entire World Of Thedas tomes were written from in-universe perspective. That is hardly a point against how they're written... especially that, say, Trespasser epilogues can't really go into too much detail not for the sake of retcons, but Spoilers!

[Seraphim24]

Yes, but severe cataclysms that don't end the world usually produce mass casualties which is worrisome. You asked if you'd missed anything that the Evanuris had done that might give Solas reason to strip them of power. The answer is yes. Titans are beings that can 'control' stone and, as we've seen in Descent, cause dangerous earthquakes at minimum when upset. I'm just asking that you don't minimize the killing of the Titans as 'messing around' to support your idea that Solas had no reason to be concerned for the fate of the world.

 

If you thought a volcanic eruption or major earthquake was going to destroy a town, and somehow (in some crazy world) sacrificing a town of innocent people, maybe even an innocent city, somewhere else in the world, to stop the volcano, would you do it?

 

No! At least, I most certainly would not. I would try and warn them or something, but sacrificing these other random people, no way. 

[maia0407]

If you thought a volcanic eruption or major earthquake was going to destroy a town, and somehow (in some crazy world) sacrificing a town of innocent people, maybe even an innocent city, somewhere else in the world, to stop the volcano, would you do it?
 
No! At least, I most certainly would not. I would try and warn them or something, but sacrificing these other random people, no way.

To extend your analogy, what if you had beings that would erupt every volcano they found killing millions just for more power. What if the only way to stop them was to strip them of their powers but the act of stripping them has consequences too? Would you sit back and let them erupt all those volcanoes, damaging the entire ecosystem with toxic gasses and killing many, or would you enact your imperfect solution to stop them? If you judge that your imperfect solution caused less damage than the act of erupting volcanoes would you be evil for not doing anything?

[Almostfaceman]

If you thought a volcanic eruption or major earthquake was going to destroy a town, and somehow (in some crazy world) sacrificing a town of innocent people, maybe even an innocent city, somewhere else in the world, to stop the volcano, would you do it?

 

No! At least, I most certainly would not. I would try and warn them or something, but sacrificing these other random people, no way. 

 

Uh, volcanoes can throw the entire world into an ash-cloud winter.

 

 

But there's more than one of these Titans. What if they span the entire globe, making up the very crust all inhabitants reside upon? The dwarven kingdoms span entire continents, and they're related to the Titans. 

 

If Solas prevented a cataclysm involving the Evanuris and the Titans, he saved the world, just as he claims. 

[Seraphim24]

Uh, volcanoes can throw the entire world into an ash-cloud winter.

 

 

But there's more than one of these Titans. What if they span the entire globe, making up the very crust all inhabitants reside upon? The dwarven kingdoms span entire continents, and they're related to the Titans. 

 

If Solas prevented a cataclysm involving the Evanurs and the Titans, he saved the world, just as he claims. 

 

I think all you need is a giant sort of fissure eruption actually similar to the one Iceland experienced in like the 14th century or whatever, which did indeed cause mass devastation there and elsewhere. 

 

But really all you are residing on are what ifs?

 

Well, what if, well, it doesn't really matter? What if nothing would of happened?

 

I would have no hesitation in such a situation, observing a similar sequence of events, as chalking it up to chaos or otherwise unclear, certainly not life threatening, none of which either gets additionally at "Intent" or "potential solutions" either. 

 

Like, since when is the solution to (and of course, assuming natural disasters were likely to occur in some capacity, which I still don't even buy) potential geographic disasters to sacrifice humans? That's Aztec logic right there basically, might even do a disservice to Aztecs. 

[Lezio]

If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bike

[Almostfaceman]

I think all you need is a giant sort of fissure eruption actually similar to the one Iceland experienced in like the 14th century or whatever, which did indeed cause mass devastation there and elsewhere. 

 

But really all you are residing on are what ifs?

 

Well, what if, well, it doesn't really matter? 

 

Well, you gotta ask yourself why is Bioware bringing up the Titans and Solas if none of this matters? 

[Almostfaceman]

If my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bike

 

A fleshy wrinkly bike? 

[Lezio]

A fleshy wrinkly bike? 

 

I was thinking the same thing, actually. An old woman with wheels for legs, i guess

[midnight tea]

Yeah, i mean in my every single post about, well, everything you will find no presence of words like "Personally, in my opinion, from my perspective, to my eyes", wanna know why? Because i truly believe that my word is fact and if someone else thinks differently than they are, quite obviously, stupid, horrible people who deserve death by Snu Snu

I mean, just look at what i said in this topic, i never stated and/or argued Solas' costant inconstancy when it comes to what he says and what he does, never brought proof of my motivations facts, i just said stated as universal truth that everyone should hate him

 

So you make exxagerated statements like that and then you want to play it as if you're an innocent party here? Why does it matter how much you underline that "it's just your opinion", when your opinion is that obviously you're right? You may claim that you don't, but it's evident from the way you treat people's opinion that isn't congruous to yours - many times I've seen you interpret what I or others said in least charitable light possible (both for us and a character), or just making or addressing downright strawmen; or just repeating statements over and over again, no matter how much evidence was brought against it or making it seem like every word used to point out the complexity of situation is just people absolving Solas of any sins he's done or could do. 

 

 

 

 

I really do like, though, how someone who has a different opinion, and specifies over and over again that it's just an opinion, is not allowed to get a little frustrated at being called, implicitly and explicitly, multiple times throughout a conversation, too simpleminded to understand the character, his motivations, hell, to comprehend the truth present before him and so far and so on. And if he does, well that person isobviously insulting Solas' fandom as a whole

 

It's amazing, really

 

Oh, you mean the very same thing that you're doing? It's so easy to just blame it on others, ey? Nevermind that I patiently discuss with you or others and either cite evidence or arguments to support my position and only really get frustrated when it's getting *obvious* that not only I'm not getting through with anything (and I don't just mean arguments for Solas or whatevs, but even trying to counter constant accusations or suggestions of apparent whitewashing or being blinded) and we're not getting anywhere with discussion other than getting deeper into our trenches. I'd be happy to just discuss a character and role and story or possible scenarios - I make at least attempts pretty much at all times - and I've already underlined *several times* that the fate of Solas is an unknown, and it can go both ways. Thing is that if someone doesn't even entertain an idea that he's hardly more than an irredeemable bastard, there's not really that much we can really discuss.

[Seraphim24]

Well, you gotta ask yourself why is Bioware bringing up the Titans and Solas if none of this matters? 

 

I don't know, to create discussions on internet message boards?

 

I'll just return to my first statement, which is simply that what someone sees and intends and what someone else sees can be quite different. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen someone, who, in their poor judgment, deemed threats to occur or exist in places where I would look at the same thing and go "What on earth are you talking about?"

 

Of course, they would often be in positions of power, so we all have to bear the weight of their noxious stupidity, being their train to crash, I suppose. It's not that problems can't and won't exist, it's just I don't see the one here about the end of the world. 

 

At the end of the day, I guess I just think Solas makes poor decisions, so poor they frankly just seem evil. 

[maia0407]

I think all you need is a giant sort of fissure eruption actually similar to the one Iceland experienced in like the 14th century or whatever, which did indeed cause mass devastation there and elsewhere. 
 
But really all you are residing on are what ifs?
 
Well, what if, well, it doesn't really matter? What if nothing would of happened?
 
I would have no hesitation in such a situation, observing a similar sequence of events, as chalking it up to chaos or otherwise unclear, certainly not life threatening, none of which either gets additionally at "Intent" or "potential solutions" either. 
 
Like, since when is the solution to natural disasters to sacrifice humans to appease them? That's Aztec logic right there basically.

We don't know yet; we're all speculating at this point as to Solas' motivations. Again, you asked for an example of what sort of world ending events Solas might be worried about that you missed. The game has provided the killing of the Titans as a plausible issue. To dismiss it as 'what ifs that don't matter' is a disappointing response as you *asked* for that sort of speculation. You stated that the Evanuris had done nothing worse than kill Mythal leaving out the slavery and the Titan killing.

No one claimed any of this speculation as truth, though; they're provided as interesting hints as to what could be happening in the game. I don't know, I just feel like I'm discussing things with people in good faith only to have answers to questions thrown back at me.

[midnight tea]

Solas is not an ally and has never been one. Solas is his own man doing his own thing. He only allied with you because you were a useful tool to him, or at least you became one after the Disney-esque singing.

 

Its not very different from Morrigan who went with the Warden because the Wardens were a useful tool to her, a way for her to possibly obtain Urthemiel's soul and if you don't acquiesce to her sperm jacking, she leaves you.

 

Likewise, once the Orb had been destroyed and Corypheus was killed, Solas left you. That's right - He could have stayed there and "be your friend" and kept the Mark from going berserk. However, he left because he did not get what he was really after - his Orb.

 

Have you missed the part when I said that he's an ally of convenience? Whether you like it or not though it's still a form of an alliance. I mean, you yourself said (right after saying that he was never an ally) that he's allied with you. Even if it was just because at that time Inky was useful for him or they simply had a common goal, they still worked together for it. Hence an alliance of convenience.

 

And as far as we know Solas has not yet sabotaged his former allies - heck, something completely opposite happened. Instead of using his spies to dismantle or discredit the Inquisition, he warned them about the Qunari and effectively saved them and the South.

[Almostfaceman]

I don't know, to create discussions on internet message boards?

 

 

Nah, it's to set the stage for the continuation of their franchise... tell us where the story is headed. 

 

They even say so here. http://gdcvault.com/...tion-Trespasser

[Seraphim24]

We don't know yet; we're all speculating at this point as to Solas' motivations. Again, you asked for an example of what sort of world ending events Solas might be worried about that you missed. The game has provided the killing of the Titans as a plausible issue. To dismiss it as 'what ifs that don't matter' is a disappointing response as you *asked* for that sort of speculation. You stated that the Evanuris had done nothing worse than kill Mythal leaving out the slavery and the Titan killing.

No one claimed any of this speculation as truth, though; they're provided as interesting hints as to what could be happening in the game. I don't know, I just feel like I'm discussing things with people in good faith only to have answers to questions thrown back at me.

 

No, I stated that Solas's basis for why Evanuris would destroy the world was based the murder of Mythal and the arrogance they practiced, not the "slavery" per se, which is simply a mark of Elven society at the time being problematic and bad, two separate things. 

 

Someone later was bringing up the deaths of the Titans, which I tend started talking about. 

 

Honestly if you can't get right what I actually say, with apologies, I'm probably not going to participate more in this discussion. 

[Secret Rare]

You flew far away from original point. I'm talking about bizarre assumption that apparently being a "polite apostate" - which is apparently his fake persona, despite evidence to the contrary - somehow clashes with having a spy network.

 

 

Why you keep to get hold of the wrong end of the stick with your own misinterpretations?

I said that Solas presented himself as an apostate not that an apostate couldn't have been a spy or a chef.

Then i have pointed out how he was working with the Inquisitor under false pretences.