4635 réponses à ce sujet

[maia0407]

No, I stated that Solas's basis for why Evanuris would destroy the world was based the murder of Mythal and the arrogance they practiced, not the "slavery" per se, which is simply a mark of Elven society at the time being problematic and bad, two separate things. 
 
Someone later was bringing up the deaths of the Titans, which I tend started talking about. 
 
Honestly if you can't get right what I actually say, with apologies, I'm probably not going to participate more in this discussion.

That's probably for the best as this discussion appears to be in bad faith anyway.

[Seraphim24]

That's probably for the best as this discussion appears to be in bad faith anyway.

 

I was asked for my opinion, I gave it, it's not in bad faith, though I obviously do not control your opinion as to whether it is or isn't, at any rate. 

 

Actually though, I can't help but point out you just provided evidence of the very phenomenon of one problem I have with Solas, he imagines threats "bad faith" whatever when there is nothing there, and so you have effectively supported my conclusion. 

[Almostfaceman]

I was asked for my opinion, I gave it, it's not in bad faith, though I obviously do not control your opinion as to whether it is or isn't, at any rate. 

 

Actually though, I should add, you basically just proved (one) of the very problems I have with Solas, he imagines threats "bad faith" whatever when there is nothing there. 

 

Wait you just said what happened is a bunch of "what if's" and now you know he imagined a threat? What? 

[Seraphim24]

Wait you just said what happened is a bunch of "what if's" and now you know he imagined a threat? What? 

 

There isn't an obvious distinction between "imagining threats" and exercising poor judgment as to potential what ifs, they are often one and the same. 

[Almostfaceman]

There isn't an obvious distinction between "imagining threats" and exercising poor judgment as to potential what ifs, they are often one and the same. 

 

If all we have is "what ifs" then you can't even say for sure that he exercised poor judgement. 

 

This is why, as I explained earlier, I'm waiting for DA4 to come in with more information before I pass judgement on Solas. 

[Seraphim24]

If all we have is "what ifs" then you can't even say for sure that he exercised poor judgement. 

 

This is why, as I explained earlier, I'm waiting for DA4 to come in with more information before I pass judgement on Solas. 

 

All right well we clearly are just going back and forth over the same things at this point. 

 

But I mean, getting the "what ifs" right is precisely often the only basis for judging whether someone exercised poor judgment. No one should even get credit for making decisions with absolute certainty at any rate "X is guranteed to save Y" "Z is the same but will probably fail." Both X and Y involve the same inputs, well gee I don't know I guess we'll just pick X eh?

 

But life isn't math, and all that. 

 

 Anyway, going back again, my opinion is he clearly failed, many tests of his character and, whatever, my opinion. 

[Secret Rare]

Solas is not an ally and has never been one. Solas is his own man doing his own thing. He only allied with you because you were a useful tool to him, or at least you became one after the Disney-esque singing.

 

Its not very different from Morrigan who went with the Warden because the Wardens were a useful tool to her, a way for her to possibly obtain Urthemiel's soul and if you don't acquiesce to her sperm jacking, she leaves you.

 

Likewise, once the Orb had been destroyed and Corypheus was killed, Solas left you. That's right - He could have stayed there and "be your friend" and kept the Mark from going berserk. However, he left because he did not get what he was really after - his Orb.

They are scoundrels.

[maia0407]

I was asked for my opinion, I gave it, it's not in bad faith, though I obviously do not control your opinion as to whether it is or isn't, at any rate.

Actually though, I should add, you basically just proved (one) of the very problems I have with Solas, he imagines threats "bad faith" whatever when there is nothing there.

In fact, your inability to take my word illustrates the precise problem.

So, if you trust me, that I don't find Solas to be super good or super correct, despite what he says, then you disprove the possibility that I have for basing that Solas isn't getting it right, and thus support this analysis of his character, whereas if you don't, then you help prove the main grievance I have his character on the basis that it is a very common and real phenomenon.

I'm not following that last paragraph at all. Look, my reading of how this conversation is progressing has no bearing on the Dragon Age story.

I'm not questioning your assertion that Solas is evil; it's a valid reading of the story as we know it although I disagree. All I did was provide information that you didn't seem to take into account when you stated that you might be missing codex entries or other information. Rather than acknowledge that the Titans are a story element with world damaging implications that the Evanuris were involved with, the whole point is hand waved away as 'messing around' and 'what ifs don't matter'. All of our speculations, including yours, are 'what ifs' until the next game. So, having valid points dismissed comes across as bad faith.

[Medhia_Nox]

@maia0407:  You say we're speculating as to motivations. 

 

Are we also speculating about what Solas says about the Evanuris, the ancient elves and the Veil?  

 

"while this world burns in the roiling chaos"

"this world must die" 

"if they must die, I would rather they have peace before the end"

 

Why is what is says about the ancient elves: "Precise and factual"

But what he says about the modern world:  "Open to interpretation"? 

 

And when someone purposefully keeps secret from you... going so far as to actually tell you they're purposefully keeping secrets from you... do you often say: "Well,it must be because they're wiser and smarter than me.  So I'll just trust them to go ahead with whatever they've got planned."

Funny how Solas is all "Approval" when you ask questions before you know who he is... but outright tells you "No" when you ask questions about his bid to destroy the modern world of Thedas.

[Seraphim24]

I'm not following that last paragraph at all. Look, my reading of how this conversation is progressing has no bearing on the Dragon Age story.

I'm not questioning your assertion that Solas is evil; it's a valid reading of the story as we know it although I disagree. All I did was provide information that you didn't seem to take into account when you stated that you might be missing codex entries or other information. Rather than acknowledge that the Titans are a story element with world damaging implications that the Evanuris were involved with, the whole point is hand waved away as 'messing around' and 'what ifs don't matter'. All of our speculations, including yours, are 'what ifs' until the next game. So, having valid points dismissed comes across as bad faith.

 

I'm not hand waving though, most of what I did was re-read from the text or the wiki or somewhere. If someone wants to start busting out the actual literal dialogue and stuff so we can all remember exactly what was said about what, and which specifies the exact roles of the Stone or the Titans, the exact potential consequences of this or that. 

 

It's not hand wavy or disingenuous to say it's somewhat nebulous, there's nothing like "Evanuris was about to press the giant red button which they had engineered to extermine all life because they hated everyone and just as they were about to press it I shot them with a magic missle in the nick of time." 

 

Nor is it, well the Elves were there and happy and peaceful, and the Stone was there, and everyone was good, and then I, Solas, suddenly got the idea that I really hated the Stone and the Titans and I was going to destroy them all because I just hate granite and oh wait yeah but I'm going to pass that off on everyone else and hey while I'm at it might as well just get rid of all the people I don't personally like because hey no one will know that I just made that stuff up." 

 

It's more like, a bunch of crazy stuff was going on, and no one seems to be able to explain it exactly, even what happened, per se, much less the repercussions. 

 

Even more to the point, his "solution" was not really a solution at all it seemed and was the original inspiration for "chaotic evil." 

 

It's not really clear at all why Evanuris did most of what it did, for starters. 

 

But like anyway, I personally don't think there is anything missing from what we've covered that would change my ultimate conclusion that he acted poorly and really over-reacted to some things he didn't fully understand, and his solution was not a solution but was kind of a big evil mess of harm. 

[Lezio]

So you make exxagerated statements like that and then you want to play it as if you're an innocent party here? Why does it matter how much you underline that "it's just your opinion", when your opinion is that obviously you're right? You may claim that you don't, but it's evident from the way you treat people's opinion that isn't congruous to yours - many times I've seen you interpret what I or others said in least charitable light possible (both for us and a character), or just making or addressing downright strawmen; or just repeating statements over and over again, no matter how much evidence was brought against it or making it seem like every word used to point out the complexity of situation is just people absolving Solas of any sins he's done or could do. 

 

 

Oh, you mean the very same thing that you're doing? It's so easy to just blame it on others, ey? Nevermind that I patiently discuss with you or others and either cite evidence or arguments to support my position and only really get frustrated when it's getting *obvious* that not only I'm not getting through with anything (and I don't just mean arguments for Solas or whatevs, but even trying to counter constant accusations or suggestions of apparent whitewashing or being blinded) and we're not getting anywhere with discussion other than getting deeper into our trenches. I'd be happy to just discuss a character and role and story or possible scenarios - I make at least attempts pretty much at all times - and I've already underlined *several times* that the fate of Solas is an unknown, and it can go both ways. Thing is that if someone doesn't even entertain an idea that he's hardly more than an irredeemable bastard, there's not really that much we can really discuss.

 

EDIT: no, know what? This is just ridiculous and adds nothing to the discussion

[Almostfaceman]

And when someone purposefully keeps secret from you... going so far as to actually tell you they're purposefully keeping secrets from you... do you often say: "Well,it must be because they're wiser and smarter than me.  So I'll just trust them to go ahead with whatever they've got planned."

 

Who's said that Solas is wiser and smarter than them and that they should be trusted to go ahead with their plan? 

[nightscrawl]

Nah, it's to set the stage for the continuation of their franchise... tell us where the story is headed. 

 

They even say so here. http://gdcvault.com/...tion-Trespasser

 

OH I didn't know this was posted somewhere to watch. I saw the tweets from it, but had now idea the video was available. Thanks!

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I do hope that it's a joke. Because if it's not, it doesn't really put you in a very good light - I mean, it's not like all the 50 pages of this particular topic or 6k pages of Solas thread are ALL just about how much of a generous bad boy Solas is   And you've been there, discussing lore and character and story in tremendous depth or just making jokes or goofing around, and many times I got an impression that you've valued opinion of people there, since you sought it out on more than a few occasions - but apparently for you we're just shallow women who blindly love a guy for entirely superficial reasons... 

 

It is a joke but to be fair, Solas does behave like a bad boy quite a lot.

 

1) He puts you to sleep without your consent and the proceeds to seduce you (and possibly f*ck you) in your dreams. I find it ironic how no one considers this as a form of sexual assault or violation of the mind given that we live in a time where the cultural narrative says that women cannot give consent when they are inebriated. Logically, Solas be seen as a sex offender or a privacy offender.

 

2) He exhibits a general attitude of aloofness and indifference which bad boys do exhibit. He even says that bedding you is a side benefit of his attitude. I am surprised at the sheer number of female Lavellans that want to be treated as a side benefit.

 

3) He breaks up with you but he stalks you in your dreams. I find it weird how people, especially women, do not consider this a form of harassment. Then again, women are perfectly okay with Edward Cullen and Christian Grey, who do the stalking thing as well.

 

If you want actual reasons instead of humor, here is one:-

 

Solas is not an ally and has never been one. Solas is his own man doing his own thing. He only allied with you because you were a useful tool to him, or at least you became one after the Disney-esque singing.

 

Its not very different from Morrigan who went with the Warden because the Wardens were a useful tool to her, a way for her to possibly obtain Urthemiel's soul and if you don't acquiesce to her sperm jacking, she leaves you.

 

Likewise, once the Orb had been destroyed and Corypheus was killed, Solas left you. That's right - He could have stayed there and "be your friend" and kept the Mark from going berserk. However, he left because he did not get what he was really after - his Orb.

 

In many ways, Solas and Morrigan are quite similar. Both treat the protagonists as tools and as useful idiots to get what they want. Their supposed "care" for the protagonist, if romanced, is secondary or superficial since once they get what they want or once its clear they do not get what they want, they leave the protagonist.

 

I personally find the way many women react to Solas is very much similar to the way many men react to Morrigan. They are deluded and have to rely on metagame like the word of the writer instead of what is in the game itself as well as rely on things such as headcannons and fanfictions.

 

Edit:- I have been given a warning for saying that Solas is a bad boy and for posting a meme. Guess someone here got their fragile fee-fees triggered. Smh.

[Almostfaceman]

OH I didn't know this was posted somewhere to watch. I saw the tweets from it, but had now idea the video was available. Thanks!

 

No problemo.

 

[Shechinah]

Funny how Solas is all "Approval" when you ask questions before you know who he is... but outright tells you "No" when you ask questions about his bid to destroy the modern world of Thedas.

 

The dialogue indicates that Solas does not want to tell the Inquisitor why what might happen might happen because it ties into how he intends to carry out his plan and learning that how might allow the Inquisitor to figure out how to prevent said how.

 

Solas: "A good question but not one I will answer. You have always shown a thoughtfulness I've respected, it would be too easy to tell you too much."

 

Basically, it is a case of him being dangerously genre savvy.  

[maia0407]

@maia0407: You say we're speculating as to motivations.

Are we also speculating about what Solas says about the Evanuris, the ancient elves and the Veil?

"while this world burns in the roiling chaos"
"this world must die"
"if they must die, I would rather they have peace before the end"

Why is what is says about the ancient elves: "Precise and factual"
But what he says about the modern world: "Open to interpretation"?

I've never called his info on the ancient elves 'precise and factual'. Please don't put words into my mouth. I've stated that he is an authority on ancient elves as he *is* an ancient elf and lived during that time. However I've also acknowledged that being an authority or expert doesn't make the information provided 100% correct. We can't seperate historical accounts, even first hand accounts, from the biases and perspectives of the people presenting them. Acknowledging these problems doesn't make those accounts worthless though. We've been over my perspective on this several times though so I'm curious as to why you are skewing what I said earlier.

I'm not sure what you've mean by the modern world being "open to interpretation". Those certainly aren't my words.

As to his description as to what might happen when the veil comes down, his words can be taken several ways as has already been pointed out. I need more information. Additionally, Patrick Weekes has a history of leaving Solas' words open for interpretation by the player so it's not unprecedented.

[nightscrawl]

1) He puts you to sleep without your consent and the proceeds to seduce you in your dreams. I find it ironic how no one considers this as a form of sexual assault or violation of the mind given that we live in a time where the cultural narrative says that women cannot give consent when they are inebriated.

I haven't done the Solas romance and in fact play a male human. However, I thought that that scene was basically the romance alternate of the Haven dream scene that everyone gets. If that's the case, my reading of that scene was that he just visited you during the course of the night, particularly since you wake up in your own bed. It doesn't make much sense that he "puts you to sleep," potentially drags you there, and then leaves to go off to his own area to "sleep" and visit.
 
However, I do realize that his remark of "Let's go somewhere more appropriate" (or whatever he says) does sort of lend itself to that? But I still really don't get that feeling.

In many ways, Solas and Morrigan are quite similar. Both treat the protagonists as tools and as useful idiots to get what they want. Their supposed "care" for the protagonist, if romanced, is secondary or superficial since once they get what they want or once its clear they do not get what they want, they leave the protagonist.

I personally find the way many women react to Solas is very much similar to the way many men react to Morrigan. They are deluded and have to rely on metagame like the word of the writer instead of what is in the game itself as well as rely on things such as headcannons and fanfictions.

I don't think it's quite fair to compare the romances, particularly given how Morrigan talks about a romanced Warden who is father to Kieran. She loves him, they are "together," and she is planning to return to him. She makes that quite clear if you ask her about it.

And I say this as someone who doesn't particularly care about Morrigan.

[Lezio]

In many ways, Solas and Morrigan are quite similar. Both treat the protagonists as tools and as useful idiots to get what they want. Their supposed "care" for the protagonist, if romanced, is secondary or superficial since once they get what they want or once its clear they do not get what they want, they leave the protagonist.

 

I personally find the way many women react to Solas is very much similar to the way many men react to Morrigan. They are deluded and have to rely on metagame like the word of the writer instead of what is in the game itself as well as rely on things such as headcannons and fanfictions.

 

Edit:- I have been given a warning for saying that Solas is a bad boy and for posting a meme. Guess someone here got their fragile fee-fees triggered. Smh.

 

Well, i don't know about that. I mean, i could go into detail about the difference between Morrigan and Solas, but i think it's enough to say that she never destroyed the world, doesn't plan to do so again and actually helped saving it 2 times

[Shechinah]

It is a joke but to be fair, Solas does behave like a bad boy quite a lot.

 

1) He puts you to sleep without your consent and the proceeds to seduce you (and possibly f*ck you) in your dreams. I find it ironic how no one considers this as a form of sexual assault or violation of the mind given that we live in a time where the cultural narrative says that women cannot give consent when they are inebriated. Logically, Solas be seen as a sex offender or a privacy offender.

 

2) He exhibits a general attitude of aloofness and indifference which bad boys do exhibit. He even says that bedding you is a side benefit of his attitude. I am surprised at the sheer number of female Lavellans that want to be treated as a side benefit.

 

3) He breaks up with you but he stalks you in your dreams. I find it weird how people, especially women, do not consider this a form of harassment. Then again, women are perfectly okay with Edward Cullen and Christian Grey, who do the stalking thing as well.

 

If you want actual reasons instead of humor, here is one:-

 

1) Are you referring to the scene in the Fade? There is nothing in the scene, to my knowledge, that indicates that the Inquisitor's mental faculties were impaired with the exception of how they percieved the Fade as reality. As a note, Solas' reaction to their surprise at this revelation and previous wording suggests he thought they knew they were in the Fade; "Where do you think we were?"

 

It is the Inquisitor who has to initiate the kiss for the romance to occur and the kiss is all that happens in that scene. There is no possibility that sex occured as the Inquisitor wakes up immediatley after Solas wakes them up at the end of the scene. There is no fade-to-black during the Fade portion of the scene and nothing, as far as I can tell, that suggests something sexual did happen.   

 

2) That's... not how I see the optional dialogue bit. It also seems a bit joking, to me. Here's the dialogue for those curious;

 

Solas: "Forgive my melancholy. Corypheus has cost us much. The Temple of Mythal did not deserve such a fate. The orb he carries, and its stolen power... that, at least, we may still recover. With luck, some of the past may yet survive."

Inquisitor: "You're being grim and fatalistic in the hope of getting me into bed, aren't you?"

Solas: "I am grim and fatalistic, getting you into bed is just an enjoyable side benefit."

 

Although I think the interpretation of the relationship as having a sexual component has been retconned away to be honest since he says this in Trespasser when a certain option is selected;

 

Inquisitor: "And so he did." 

Solas: "I did not. I would not lay with you under false pretenses."

 

3) I admit I am not fond of that bit because that is a pet peeve of mine to see but since I believe it is open for interpretation as to why he does it and how the Inquisitor feels about it, I can tolerate it. I know others are likewise not fond of it.  
 

[maia0407]

 
It's more like, a bunch of crazy stuff was going on, and no one seems to be able to explain it exactly, even what happened, per se, much less the repercussions. 
 
Even more to the point, his "solution" was not really a solution at all it seemed and was the original inspiration for "chaotic evil." 
 
It's not really clear at all why Evanuris did most of what it did, for starters. 
 
But like anyway, I personally don't think there is anything missing from what we've covered that would change my ultimate conclusion that he acted poorly and really over-reacted to some things he didn't fully understand, and his solution was not a solution but was kind of a big evil mess of harm.

I agree with your points that most of what happened is unknown. We know bits and pieces of the story but certainly not all of it. That's why I'm reserving judgment on his actions, past and future, as I don't have all the information I need.

Whatever side I come down on (I'm doubtful I'll ever choose a side without major qualifications as his motivations appear to be complex) I'll always love the character. That doesn't mean I support his every move, gotta get that in before someone twists my words, but I'll always appreciate his complex nature. Oh, and his chin dimple will always do me in!

[Secret Rare]

I don't really distinguish between people who "do evil because they think it's a good moral reason to them" and people who just "do evil." I think that's not especially common, but when all is said and done it's just a very weak excuse to me, even if sort of technically "true" on some level. 

 

 

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Spoiler

Solas highly disapprove

[maia0407]

No problemo.
 

We need more smiling Solas in this thread!

[nightscrawl]

^ That IS a cute pic; don't often see him like that.

 

2) That's... not how I see the optional dialogue bit. It also seems a bit joking, to me. Here's the dialogue for those curious;
 
Solas: "Forgive my melancholy. Corypheus has cost us much. The Temple of Mythal did not deserve such a fate. The orb he carries, and its stolen power... that, at least, we may still recover. With luck, some of the past may yet survive."
Inquisitor: "You're being grim and fatalistic in the hope of getting me into bed, aren't you?"
Solas: "I am grim and fatalistic, getting you into bed is just an enjoyable side benefit."
 
Although I think the interpretation of the relationship as having a sexual component has been retconned away to be honest since he says this in Trespasser when a certain option is selected;
 
Inquisitor: "And so he did." 
Solas: "I did not. I would not lay with you under false pretenses."
 
3) I admit I am not fond of that bit because that is a pet peeve of mine to see but since I believe it is open for interpretation as to why he does it and how the Inquisitor feels about it, I can tolerate it. I know others are likewise not fond of it.

I also see the initial line as a joke, or just a teasing remark, in response to the Inquisitor's teasing remark, made to change the mood of the conversation. Also, I highly doubt that Gareth David-Lloyd (Solas's VA) came anywhere near to being lascivious with his tone.

As for the retcon... it doesn't necessarily have to be seen that way. You could also read his initial line as "[the potential of] getting you into bed..." But I think this is one of those things that can be seen differently by each Solasmancer.

[lynroy]

It is a joke but to be fair, Solas does behave like a bad boy quite a lot.

 

1) He puts you to sleep without your consent and the proceeds to seduce you (and possibly f*ck you) in your dreams. I find it ironic how no one considers this as a form of sexual assault or violation of the mind given that we live in a time where the cultural narrative says that women cannot give consent when they are inebriated. Logically, Solas be seen as a sex offender or a privacy offender.

Whoa now, that's going far. He doesn't put the Inquisitor to sleep, the Inquisitor seeks him out while they are already dreaming. There is dialogue that supports this that is often overlooked.
Solas: To visit me here, and you not even a mage.
Implying he was sought out. Then there's this:
Inquisitor: I had some odd dreams. Very odd. With very odd people in them, for that matter.
Solas: I will take that as a compliment, given that you include yourself. Remember, you came looking for me.

He's not invading anyone's privacy, he was invited. Also, Solas doesn't seduce Lavellan, she is the one that makes the moves on him. She flirts first and he flirts back. She kisses him first to which he responds in kind. There is also no sex in this scene as Solas is the one who brings the kissing to a halt.