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[midnight tea]

That line always bugged me. When asked Solas says "I had plans.". 

Had plans? As in, used to but not anymore? You better have plans if you're doing this. 

 

Yeah, I also found it curious that he said it in past tense. I mean, I interpreted it as "You'll have to wait for DA4 to find out!" same with "Yeah, I will not tell you why the return of my people means the end of yours just now" bit, but it still is curious that he said he HAD plans.

 

The only thing I can think of that makes sense is that it probably means that his plans now may be drastically different from plan A, which is highly possible, considering that those plans centered about using the the Orb and the Anchor... But what that means, we'd probably find out. Maybe the new plan is not on as big a scale as we suspect it may be, and it doesn't involves disturbing their prison or something?

 

... Or maybe he had plans, but now they're going with Mythal's route or "reckoning that shall shake the very heavens"? He didn't seem to include her in his plans before, since his reaction at ToM suggests that he didn't expect for Mythal to endure. People may be quick to point out that, judging from one of the stories he can tell to befriended Inky, he was aware of the fact that she's still poking around, but there's also another distinct possibility - he didn't expect that *enough* of her has endured, or perhaps even collected enough power to actually be viable for anything?

[midnight tea]

Would it really make you comfortable if he still had plans?

Solas has had a lot of "plans" - none of them have worked yet.

 

 

His plan to save the world from evanuris? Worked.

 

His plan to lead a successful rebellion? Worked.

 

His plan to bet everything on Inquisition to deal with Corypheus crisis? Worked.

 

His plan to warn Inky about the Qunari plot and drawing them behind eluvians to save them? Worked.

 

Just because *some* of his plans didn't work, or didn't work as intended, or he's made mistakes doesn't mean that nothing he's ever done worked.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

@BansheeOwnage:  Xerrai asked many pages ago if we would get to 50... and here we are at 60.

 

==========

 

You know... having gone over a lot of these pages recently - I don't find people actually stating any "virtues".

 

I see people saying: "Solas is complicated" and "I love Solas."  And yes Almostfaceman - I'll go grab quotes if you need them to hold a conversation.

"Complicated" is not a virtue.

 

Vlad Tepes was a very "complicated" man - one I actually find very interesting - but I still find him to be a complete and utter monster regardless of whether or not he did some of the things he did to fend off the Turks.  Or whether or not lying and stealing were almost unheard of in his lands (as for lying - at least in his presence) - but to make these things so rare in his lands he was willing to have a horrific reputation.

 

Almostfaceman has suggested that nobody has said that Solas is "smarter" or "wiser" than the PC - and all Bioware PCs are pretty stupid by design.  And I haven't seen anyone suggest that his plan is a good one... only that they will either "stop" or "redeem".

 

So... what are his actual "virtues"?

- Complicated - not a virtue

- Ancient - not a virtue

- Tragic (he's not, but whatever) - not a virtue

- Mysterious - not a virtue.

- Sad - not a virtue

 

They sound like traits a caretaker personality would be drawn to.

 

So... are we saying he's an attractive non-virtuous man? 

 

You are so on point with this. Being old, being complex, being mysterious, being grim, being fatalistic and being tragic are not virtues. They are just attributes that you can attach to someone.

 

Also, what you say of Bioware protagonists is true - They are not permitted to be intelligent. Yes you invest some perks to get some dialogue options but it does not make the protagonist intelligent. It does not make the protagonist suddenly being capable of logic and rational thinking. In fact, most of the special dialogue options are just one liners. Its one of the biggest flaws of voiced protagonist - You can't really show that they change or grow without spending too much money on dialogue.

 

To add to this, Solas is not exactly that intelligent or that wise because people with sufficiently high intelligence and high wisdom is capable of predicting and taking into account all the possible consequences of their actions as well have backup plans in case their initial plan fails or goes horribly wrong.

 

Solas mentions that he created the Veil to save the Elven people. However, with sufficient foresight, you can't just save a large population of slaves and the underclass. The slaves and the underclass are in general, people with low education and menial skills. Sure you can liberate them but you cannot expect them to manage a government or a nation or a society or a civilization because they don't have the knowledge and skills to do so.

 

There is also the fact that ancient Elves have no idea how to function in a low-magical or non-magical environment due to their nature. As such, it would have been prudent for Solas to prepare them or prepare a small number of Elves trained in living in a low-magical or non-magical environment.

 

Moreover, ancient Elvhenan was a reclusive society in that it was located in fringe spots and its people kept to themselves. When you plan to take down the very thing that allows these Elves to remain in fringe locations keeping to themselves, it would be sensible to educate Elves on the art of diplomacy and fostering good relations with Dwarves and Humans.

 

However, Solas did not do any one of these things. He just went on to create Veil or join existing parts of the Veil and went to a long Uthenara. If Solas did any one of the things I suggested, we would have Dalish Elves or City Elves as we know them today. We would have Elves with their own sovereign state or kingdom or region. They would be shadow of their ancient glory but they would have a permanent home and be at least on neutral terms with Humans and Dwarves.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

His plan to save the world from evanuris? Worked.

 

His plan to lead a successful rebellion? Worked.

 

His plan to bet everything on Inquisition to deal with Corypheus crisis? Worked.

 

His plan to warn Inky about the Qunari plot and drawing them behind eluvians to save them? Worked.

 

Just because *some* of his plans didn't work, or didn't work as intended, or he's made mistakes doesn't mean that nothing he's ever done worked.

 

1) The Evanuris are not dead, merely locked away. The problem is still there, its not fully solved. So his plan partially worked. 

 

2) We don't know if his rebellion was successful or not. We only know for certain that he led a rebellion and that ancient Elvhenan had to deal with plenty of wars and rebellions.

 

3) Plot Armor. His plan works here because we cannot lose the game.

 

4) Plot Armor. His plan works here because we cannot lose the game.

 

So his plans can partially work or they require plot armor. What a great mastermind tactical planner.

[Lezio]

His plan to save the world from evanuris? Worked.

 

His plan to lead a successful rebellion? Worked.

 

His plan to bet everything on Inquisition to deal with Corypheus crisis? Worked.

 

His plan to warn Inky about the Qunari plot and drawing them behind eluvians to save them? Worked.

 

Just because *some* of his plans didn't work, or didn't work as intended, or he's made mistakes doesn't mean that nothing he's ever done worked.

 

Destroyed the world he knew to achieve it, great plan

 

That's why the modern-day elves paint themselves with the slave markings and think him a monster? While also venerating their once slavers, i might add. Great rebellion

 

Yeah, after his prior plan failed in a rather spectacular way

 

This actually worked. Holy crap the man is genius

[Bayonet Hipshot]

 

Well then so are you, seeing how oftentimes you were a guest there, doing such *impossibly obsessive things* like... oh I don't know - discussing the surrounding lore or story, in a thread about a character who also *gasp* happens to be a pivotal element of it.

 

...Though now it seems that your obsession seems to have taken an interesting new route and now you're obsessed with discrediting a character and people who like him. Sad, very sad.

 

Because I decided to just rely on in game information instead of metagame information such as the author's words as well as things like fanfictions or headcannons and came to the realization that his virtues are not virtues, that being complex does not excuse one's plan to kill almost everyone else ?

[midnight tea]

1) The Evanuris are not dead, merely locked away. So his plan partially worked. 

 

2) We don't know if his rebellion was successful or not. We only know for certain that there was one.

 

3) Plot Armor. His plan works here because we cannot lose the game.

 

4) Plot Armor. His plan works here because we cannot lose the game.

 

So his plans can partially work or they require plot armor. What a great mastermind tactical planner.

 

1). No matter how you spin it he has found a solution to deal with six or seven of insanely powerful immortal mage-kings. That his plan had caveats or dire consequences doesn't change it.

 

2). His rebellion was so successful that the Evanuris have even tried to accept him as a member of pantheon at one point, which means that he must have been pretty darn effective.

 

3). and 4). ...what was that "relying on metagame" thing you mentioned earlier?  Talk about another shot in the foot. I mean, this is just a slippery slope anyhow - that way you can explain absolutely everything in the game or any story ever: 'oh, the story was intended to be that way'. Well duh. And in the story it's intended for Solas's plans to work in that regard. There's just no going around it.

[midnight tea]

Because I decided to just rely on in game information instead of metagame information such as the author's words as well as things like fanfictions or headcannons and came to the realization that his virtues are not virtues, that being complex does not excuse one's plan to kill almost everyone else ?

 

...Yeah, you have already proven soundly that you do exactly what you accuse others of, and apparently do so without a shred of self-awareness. It is there, black on white. Everybody can see it. I don't have to add anything else.

[Almostfaceman]

@BansheeOwnage:  Xerrai asked many pages ago if we would get to 50... and here we are at 60.

 

==========

 

You know... having gone over a lot of these pages recently - I don't find people actually stating any "virtues".

 

I see people saying: "Solas is complicated" and "I love Solas."  And yes Almostfaceman - I'll go grab quotes if you need them to hold a conversation.

"Complicated" is not a virtue.

 

Vlad Tepes was a very "complicated" man - one I actually find very interesting - but I still find him to be a complete and utter monster regardless of whether or not he did some of the things he did to fend off the Turks.  Or whether or not lying and stealing were almost unheard of in his lands (as for lying - at least in his presence) - but to make these things so rare in his lands he was willing to have a horrific reputation.

 

Almostfaceman has suggested that nobody has said that Solas is "smarter" or "wiser" than the PC - and all Bioware PCs are pretty stupid by design.  And I haven't seen anyone suggest that his plan is a good one... only that they will either "stop" or "redeem".

 

So... what are his actual "virtues"?

- Complicated - not a virtue

- Ancient - not a virtue

- Tragic (he's not, but whatever) - not a virtue

- Mysterious - not a virtue.

- Sad - not a virtue

 

They sound like traits a caretaker personality would be drawn to.

 

So... are we saying he's an attractive non-virtuous man? 

 

I've seen people say that we know Solas approves when the Inquisitor shows caring for people and helps them out. So, Solas caring for people in bad situations is a virtue. 

We know from the developers that Solas cares about people, they've out-right stated that's part of his design. 

 

We know that Solas appreciates inquisitiveness and an open mind. Those are virtues. 

 

We know that not only was Solas anti-slavery but he put his own life on the line in fighting for freedom of slaves. That's a virtue. 

 

Solas can admit when he's wrong, that's a virtue. 

 

So we have the developers both saying out-right that Solas is caring and Solas demonstrates caring in the game. So why is his plan, as we know it, so monstrous? Bioware teases us with the Titans, the Blight, the Veil, prophecies of change, ancient powers resurfacing/facing destruction. It makes me curious about what we may learn regarding the monstrous plan of Solas in the next game. Is it going to remain monstrous? Easy, then, we try to kill him or thwart him. Does it turn out to be a more interesting conundrum? We'll see. 

[Xerrai]

Because I decided to just rely on in game information instead of metagame information such as the author's words as well as things like fanfictions or headcannons and came to the realization that his virtues are not virtues, that being complex does not excuse one's plan to kill almost everyone else ?

Again, no one is condoning his actions. We are not excusing him. Ever. We just say we sympathies.

 

Ignoring the fanfiction and headcanon bit (which is mostly non-applicable and by and large false anyway)

Can you really blame us for going into meta?

 

Every piece of in-game information (which we do point out), some try to discredit as being "faulty" in one way or another. That the person who said it was lying, that the codex was written from X perspective, that you interpreted it wrong, etc. No matter what was brought to the table, someone tried to poke a hole in it even though our proof was just as valid as theirs. In their mind, no in-game codex entry was truly valid.

 

So instead of going in circular arguments, perhaps we should look elsewhere for our sources. A source that is as close to valid and authentic as possible. Preferably an authority that cannot be arbitrarily denied as "faulty". What better than say....game mechanics that are consistent for all players. Or better yet....Solas's creator.

[Sah291]

I don't see Solas a smart or wise since he wasn't able to foresee the various patterns of his own plan which had 50% possibility to fail from the start.
I disagree on the Iron bull he never betray the Inquisitor he merely followed your advice to follow the Qun.

I doubt most would have, though. He gambled. He did something without knowing the eventual consequences....or he did know, and decided it was still worth it, rather than leave things as they were.

As for Bull, my point isn't why he did it, but that he can also turn against the player.

[midnight tea]

Again, no one is condoning his actions. We are not excusing him. Ever. We just say we sympathies.

 

Ignoring the fanfiction and headcanon bit (which is mostly non-applicable and by and large false anyway)

Can you really blame us for going into meta?

 

Every piece of in-game information (which we do point out), some try to discredit as being "faulty" in one way or another. That the person who said it was lying, that the codex was written from X perspective, that you interpreted it wrong, etc. No matter what was brought to the table, someone tried to poke a hole in it even though our proof was just as valid as theirs. In their mind, no in-game codex entry was truly valid.

 

So instead of going in circular arguments, perhaps we should look elsewhere for our sources. A source that is as close to valid and authentic as possible. Preferably an authority that cannot be arbitrarily denied as "faulty". What better than say....game mechanics that are consistent for all players. Or better yet....Solas's creator.

 

...I think it has been already proven soundly that some will simultaneously use meta (or try and use it...) when it's convenient for them, and at the same time criticize others when they point out that meta supports the view that isn't really congruous with theirs. To say just how badly it undermines any position they could have is sort of a no-brainer. 

 

What makes me sad is that we're losing a lot of potentially good discussion to nonsense like this. It makes me even sadder that a person in question has led a lot of decent discussions in a thread now attempted to be discredited as a bastion of obsessed fans and from what I've seen never seemed to have problem with meta back then.

[BansheeOwnage]

Aaaand I ran out of likes for the third time ever Why is there even a limit?

 

Nah, I'm not naming and shaming, lol! I already got a Bioware spanking today in the form of a naughty point.

You did? Wow

 

 

To what end?

He will kill himself then resurrect his body like Flemeth did and nullify the tranquility.

Why would a tranquil want to kill himself?

 

That line always bugged me. When asked Solas says "I had plans.". 

Had plans? As in, used to but not anymore? You better have plans if you're doing this. 

Yeah, that is odd.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You did? Wow

Personally attacking people tends to do that. 

[BansheeOwnage]

 

... Or maybe he had plans, but now they're going with Mythal's route or "reckoning that shall shake the very heavens"? He didn't seem to include her in her plans before, since his reaction at ToM suggests that he didn't expect for Mythal to endure. People may be quick to point out that, judging from one of the stories he can tell to befriended Inky, he was aware of the fact that she's still poking around, but there's also another distinct possibility - he didn't expect that *enough* of her has endured, or perhaps even collected enough power to actually be viable for anything?

That could also simply mean that he's aware of Flemeth, but not that she harbours Mythal. Now that I mention it, I wonder if Solas only found out they were one-in-the-same because she revealed it to the Inquisitor who then told Solas. Whoops!

[BansheeOwnage]

Personally attacking people tends to do that. 

Well without knowing exactly what she got a point for, I can't comment. I only know that I don't have much faith in the mods.

 

Also, personally attacking people (or groups, especially) actually tends not to get anyone warning points in my experience

[midnight tea]

That could also simply mean that he's aware of Flemeth, but not that she harbours Mythal. Now that I mention it, I wonder if Solas only found out they were one-in-the-same because she revealed it to the Inquisitor who then told Solas. Whoops!

 

I wonder how his reaction was when he realized that Morrigan is possibly Mythal's inheritor Especially that in ToM they bicker sometimes in a way that makes it look like there's some vague sibling rivalry going on - Inqusitor can actually make them stop bickering at one point by suggesting that they look like they're about to kiss, which both Solas and Morrigan have basically an "eww!" reaction to

 

I theorized once that if Flemythal raised them both in Korcari Wilds the 5th Blight would never be a problem, since the Wilds would go out in flames from a sheer amount of accumulated snark It would be brilliant to see.

 

As for finding out that Flemeth was Mythal... dunno? If Solas dislikes Inquisitor and they drink from the well he's all like "I'm looking forward to see what Mythal does to you". So he probably knows that she's more than just a wisp of energy or something. But I wouldn't be surprised if he saw that something was about Morrigan (and Kieran if OBG) much earlier - that is unless Morrigan uses some spells to mask herself and her son in some way? Flemeth does tell us that she only managed to find them after either Morrigan or Inky drink from the Well, as Morrigan did a good job of hiding from her.

 

Which is another thing - the Well and what Solas obtained from Flemythal in post-epilogue scene are likely at least somewhat different things, but I do wonder if it in any way lets him tap to her memories or something? It could be one of ways for him to know during Trespasser that Inky has met Mythal, unless he was told that, or figured it much earlier on his own

[Addictress]

Kind of unrelated.

 

Is everyone for sure that Morrigan is Mythal now? Is Morrigan going to face off with Solas?

[Xerrai]

Kind of unrelated.

 

Is everyone for sure that Morrigan is Mythal now? Is Morrigan going to face off with Solas?

Nope. No one is sure on that front.

Apparently the dev notes (which may or may not still hold true at this point) claimed that Flemeth wanted Morrigan to inherit her godhood, but we don't know if she actually pulled it off.

We are not even sure what exactly she sent into the eluvian toward the end of the base game, so in the end all we have is theory.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Kind of unrelated.

 

Is everyone for sure that Morrigan is Mythal now? Is Morrigan going to face off with Solas?

Why would Morrigan by Mythal now? She is told that she was never in danger from such a fate before leaving. 

[midnight tea]

Kind of unrelated.

 

Is everyone for sure that Morrigan is Mythal now? Is Morrigan going to face off with Solas?

 

We're not really sure if Morrigan is a Mythal per se or her chosen successor, in more ways than just a new body for her. OGB Kieran calls her an Inheritor to Mythal, awaiting the new age, and dev notes (which at this point we don't know how much we can rely on) on post-epilogue scene suggest that she gave her powers to Solas under a condition that her godhood should be passed to Morrigan. What that means exactly though we'll have to see.

[midnight tea]

Why would Morrigan by Mythal now? She is told that she was never in danger from such a fate before leaving. 

 

Well no, not really. She was told that "a soul is never forced on an unwilling" - but we don't really know what it exactly means, OR if Morigan will stay unwilling at all times. She has already made a declaration to Mythal (in OBG world-state) that she's willing to sacrifice her body if it means Flemythal will leave Kieran alone, while Flemeth has warned her that "she will have her due".

 

That doesn't mean that this is what will happen, but considering how fiercely protective Morrigan is over Kieran (at least in states where he exists) she may or may not accept the role and power of Mythal just to keep him safe.

 

There's also a possibility that she/we may also learn Mythal's plans towards her are may actually very different to what she *thinks* they are. Flemeth, after all, does seem to be amused by a lot of her daughter's assumptions in those regards ("If my daughter says that it is, then it must be so" *smirks*)

[midnight tea]

We are not even sure what exactly she sent into the eluvian toward the end of the base game, so in the end all we have is theory.

 

To be honest I have a suspicion that she hasn't really "sent" anything through eluvian. What I think was happening is that she was re-activating it.

 

Remember how Solas said that he had to override the password to eluvian network? I think she was in the middle of doing that herself.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think she sent a fragment of herself, and possibly Urthemiel, through as a contingency. Her speech just a few hours earlier makes me not believe she is willing to give up everything for Solas when she still wants to do the things she does, so it was a way she could still do that as well as help him. Flemeth is nothing if not one that plans ahead. 

[BansheeOwnage]

Kind of unrelated.

 

Is everyone for sure that Morrigan is Mythal now? Is Morrigan going to face off with Solas?

I wouldn't be surprised if this is what ends up happening (which would also negate half of the potential effects of the Well on a worldstate, which I'm sure Bioware would like), since Bioware is rather fond of Morrigan. I'm sure she'll at least appear again.

 

Another possibility (and I'm not saying I expect it, just a possibility) is that she dies in DA4 and the new protagonist will inherit her godhood/Mythal, so they can defeat Solas.