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[Medhia_Nox]

@Almostfaceman:  So because he doesn't fear you... you believe he's being truthful.  

 

There's no room for his version of the story to be skewed then from his own perspective?

People can believe their own lies all the time... even state them quite convincingly.  He HAS had 3000 to get confused about the truth.  Most people can't remember what they had for breakfast the day before... but a lot of people on these forums want to believe Solas is "all wise" so they assume he has perfect memory of events 3000 years ago.

 

When arguing on these boards - people believe that a dissenting view either way is an attempt to sway.  The reality is - you never have to listen to my hate in your game, and I never have to listen to your affections toward his drivel (to me) in my own.  I've said before - I stay away from the Blanketfort, but I'm not just going to avoid being negative in every Solas thread because people feel uncomfortable being disagreed with.

 

I totally support both your empathy and love of the character (and it shouldn't matter if I don't) - I just don't agree with it, and do not see what you are seeing in Solas.  

[Secret Rare]

Considering that he says "I will save the elven people, even if this world must die" or "I intend to restore them. Doing so will most likely destroy your world" I'd say he views it as a sad consequence. But it also means that the world's destruction isn't his goal, nor he sees it as a necessity.

 

 

Solas is inherently dangerous and malevolent in nature because his misdeeds are done with full awareness of the likely consequences, they are not the fruit of a mistake.

He can be Interesting all you want that does not change the fact that he can be perceived as having and showing a wish to do evil to others.  

[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman:  So because he doesn't fear you... you believe he's being truthful.  

 

There's no room for his version of the story to be skewed then from his own perspective?

People can believe their own lies all the time... even state them quite convincingly.  

 

When arguing on these boards - people believe that a dissenting view either way is an attempt to sway.  The reality is - you never have to listen to my hate in your game, and I never have to listen to your affections toward his drivel (to me) in my own.  I've said before - I stay away from the Blanketfort, but I'm not just going to avoid being negative in every Solas thread because people feel uncomfortable being disagreed with.

 

I totally support both your empathy and love of the character (and it shouldn't matter if I don't) - I just don't agree with it, and do not see what you are seeing in Solas.  

 

And then you get lost in the weeds again. Bioware is telling us a story. Solas expands on what we know beyond what the Chantry has told us and he's an eye witness. 

 

I don't have any "affection" for what Solas says. I like elven lore and I think Solas was a clever story method to go beyond the legends of the Dalish. 

[midnight tea]

You do know that Solas knew the Orb would result in an explosion? That he was waiting patiently in a pub in the outskirts or near Haven?

 

I suppose it's fine because it was actually Corypheus who did

 

You do realize that there were numerous stories in which character attempted to do something wrong, be it destroy or kill a protagonist or else, but something prevented them from doing so, and not only those characters ended up redeeming themselves/become valuable members of team, but sometimes even become clear favorites in the show?

 

A great example of this is Dragon Ball where half of Goku's friends consist of his past rivals, many of which - unlike Solas - had little to no redeeming qualities when it was their time to be a baddie.

 

Therefore your mistake is to think that I ignore the fact that if Cory didn't meddle with Solas plans we'd already have an apocalypse. On the contrary: I do know it and I love it - I love the fact that a pretty straightforward baddie basically saved the world from an antagonist that may yet be redeemable (All hail Cory! The unquestionable savior of Thedas! ).

Not only it's a delicious sort of irony, that also shows weird twists "fate" (even if it's just fate in fictional world) can make and lead to interesting things, like a possibility to save an old hero that was/is on his way to turning into a villain. Even in real world quite a few things happened or were prevented thanks to freak coincidences like that, be it invention of penicillin or close calls to all-out nuclear war.

[Medhia_Nox]

And then you get lost in the weeds again. Bioware is telling us a story. Solas expands on what we know beyond what the Chantry has told us and he's an eye witness. 

 

I don't have any "affection" for what Solas says. I like elven lore and I think Solas was a clever story method to go beyond the legends of the Dalish. 

 

Alright - then what I'm saying is, get ready for an "expansion" on what the bald rat "claims" - because he's not being truthful.

 

I posted once about having DA4 being a fact-finding mission to corroborate Solas' claims... I believe something like that "will" happen in DA4.

 

So... when the Evanuris give us their version... will you suddenly believe it.  It's the next new thing.

 

Or Mythal? 

 

What if we find some ancient Chantry manuscript (I "bet" you wouldn't believe this no matter what... I just have a hunch.)

 

You're reacting to Solas' information as if it were the end of the story... the whole story... and I am not.  That's all it really amounts to. 

[Illyria]

I like Solas, cause he's a well written character. You can argue with him and have nice discussions about nearly everything.

All my Inquisitors are best friends with him. (Greed already maxed out his friendship and he never takes Solas anywhere important and barely talks to him  )

 

Tbh, Solas reminds me of Van Hohenheim from FMA.

Spoiler

- Responsible for the end of their civilzation (Father was made out of Hohenheim's blood / Solas created the Fade)

- old (450 years / 1000+ years)

- very powerful (living Philosopher Stone / Ancient elf mage)

- leave their loved ones (Hohenheim's wife & kids / romanced Lavellan) for some greater good   (stopping Father / restoring the world how it was)

- said greater good has bad side-effects (after Hohenheim leaves, his wife dies and his kids try Human Transmutation / if Solas restores the world, everyone else dies)

 

So I'm basically feeling like Ed in this edit

 

 

I like Hohenheim, I like Solas, both are idiots.

 

Someone else who sees the Hohenhiem/Solas thing!

 

I love comparing those two.  Both of them are high on my list of favourite characters from their respective serises.

 

As for why I like Solas:

 

Why do people like or dislike any character?  I was interested in him before the game came out because he was a mysterious elven mage and reminded me a bit of Felassan from TME.  Then I found out he was going to be voiced by GDL and written by Patrick Weekes.  Then he got releaved as the final LI for elven women only (and since I usually play elven women I was pretty excited to get this romance).

 

I liked him during the game because he was compassonate, tended to have similar views to my Lavellan (except over the Wardens) and was interesting.  Then came the end game reveal and the knowledge that we'd been travelling with the Dread Wolf himself - and he'd caused the game to happen in the first place.  Trespasser put me off him a lot, to the extent why I couldn't see why I'd liked him.  But it's honestly made him more interesting to me because he's both a caring, compassionate man and someone who is willing to destory the world.  He's a hero and villian at the same time.

[midnight tea]

Solas is inherently dangerous and malevolent in nature because his misdeeds are done with full awareness of the likely consequences, they are not the fruit of a mistake. He can be Interesting all you want that does not change the fact that he can be perceived as having and showing a wish to do evil to others.  

 

He "does the evil to others" predominantly because he thinks he has no choice - he hints at that in vanilla game and outright tells us so in Trespasser.

 

The tragedy of this particular character is that what he perceives as his duty or a way to fulfill that duty goes against his core principles, against not wanting to hurt people yet inadvertently doing so (hence he will die alone) and this threatens to destroy him, as much as his plans threaten to destroy the world.

[Xerrai]

In truth, I'm not very traditional at all... but that's here nor there.  

 

I suppose I'll just say I believe him to be an unreliable narrator. 

 

We'll see.

 

It's interesting... the very first thing you're told at the beginning of Dragon Age: Origins is the story of the Magisters... yet, the Chantry are liars and propagandists and not "story revelation".  

 

Why does Solas get to be the "fact teller"?  What about him says: "I am revealing the truth about the world." to you?  

 

Example:  We can corroborate that he "is" Fen'Harel because we see a cut-scene where Flemeth calls him "Dread Wolf" (odd that she would call a friend by an moniker meant as 3000 year old insult - but, I won't bother trying to question that.) 

Well, one part is because Patrick Weekes wrote him in a certain way so he'd be a 'stronger character' and in general, outright misinformation (lies) usually falls into the 'weak character' category because it makes anything they say and do shabby at best.

Another part is because I cannot fathom a reason for him to lie about certain things. Like his motivations. What exactly could you thwart that would make him want to tell you an outright lie for his motivations?

 

Yet another, and by far the most important, portion is his demonstrated reputation with a lack of outright lies. Looking back from Trespasser, you can see that nearly all of what Solas said held a version of truth to it. Possible exceptions being "I saw it [high court] in the Fade" and that "he came from small village" and "Skyhold's original builders can't be traced". But just about everything else he said seems to have a kernel of truth it. Perhaps not directly (like what the world was like in the time of Arlathan), but through the game we find codex entries that imply that he was most likely truthful. Other things that he talked about, like nature of spirits, are actually reinforced by in-game events and dialogue. Not just his personal quest either, take Cole along in certain areas/trigger certain dialogue options and he more or less says a different version of what Solas said.

 

I'm not saying he does not lie. All people do. But it seems to be as he said. What lies he told were usually told by omission. Only a few, I suspect, were blatant misinformation on his part. If I am to take him as a repetitive liar, I have to see evidence of it first. The only examples we have (only one of which is confirmed to my knowledge) are little more than trivial things like where he saw the court before and which village he came from.

[Almostfaceman]

Alright - then what I'm saying is, get ready for an "expansion" on what the bald rat "claims" - because he's not being truthful.

 

I posted once about having DA4 being a fact-finding mission to corroborate Solas' claims... I believe something like that "will" happen in DA4.

 

So... when the Evanuris give us their version... will you suddenly believe it.  It's the next new thing.

 

Or Mythal? 

 

What if we find some ancient Chantry manuscript (I "bet" you wouldn't believe this no matter what... I just have a hunch.)

 

You're reacting to Solas' information as if it were the end of the story... the whole story... and I am not.  That's all it really amounts to. 

 

No, not really. There's other factors revealed in the game that corroborate a lot of what Solas tells us. 

 

Cole and Solas are two characters in the Dragon Age universe that give us insight into secrets hidden about the spirits and the Veil and the elven empire. 

 

Dragon Age starts with legends and slowly starts revealing to us how much of the legend is true, how much is false, how much is a little bit of both. It's a common story arc and there's a reason it's a common story arc. Because it's a lot of fun. 

 

If you honestly believe that Bioware used an entire game loading us down with story lies... that they have a word budget that large set aside for misdirection... that they have writers that dedicated to keeping us confused this deep into the story... that they really want to troll the audience at this point... then I think you're taking your hatred for a character and letting it cloud your judgement.

 

It takes these guys like four years to put out a new chapter of the story. I don't think they wasted this entire chapter on a bunch of baloney and it doesn't really make any sense that they would.

 

So they made a character that could believably tell us more about the lore from an interesting angle and they moved the story forward in an interesting way. It's not really any more complicated than that. 

[Ieldra]

I suppose I'll just say I believe him to be an unreliable narrator. 
 
We'll see.

I think that's wishful thinking, but indeed, we'll see.
 

It's interesting... the very first thing you're told at the beginning of Dragon Age: Origins is the story of the Magisters... yet, the Chantry are liars and propagandists and not "story revelation".

It's a religious legend, specifically told as one. It's very unusual that those turn out to be true in anything but a symbolic way.
 

Why does Solas get to be the "fact teller"?  What about him says: "I am revealing the truth about the world." to you?  
 
Example:  We can corroborate that he "is" Fen'Harel because we see a cut-scene where Flemeth calls him "Dread Wolf" (odd that she would call a friend by an moniker meant as 3000 year old insult - but, I won't bother trying to question that.)

It's the other way round. Usually, we can take character's claims to be basically true unless there are markers to indicate otherwise. I'm seeing no such markers. We don't distrust Iron Bull about the way the Qun works, we don't distrust Dorian when he talks about Tevinter. Why? Because they give us no reason and are presented as basically trustworthy, even if possibly biased. But then, I'm not saying Solas' account is a neutral one, just that it's true in a general sense.

Also, that the Veil is artificial is corroborated by the spirits in the old library we visit in Trespasser. There are inscriptions we get to read, both in Temple of Mythal and in Trespasser, that corroborate parts of his story. Did he plant all that to deceive us? I find that idea nonsensical, given that he doesn't hide the worst aspect of his plans from us.

Also, what Almostfaceman said. It is indeed simple.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Almostfaceman: So, when they didn't know if this would be a franchise in DA:O... they were okay with loading us down with story lies of the Chantry and spending this budget of their in misdirection.

 

But now that they're probably very aware that DA4 will happen... "Solas" is the fact speaker. 

 

Funny thing is... to most people on here, I have to believe he is either 100% lying or 100% telling the truth.  When in fact... I just want to sort through his bullshit. 

 

Makes total sense.  

 

@Ieldra: While roleplaying... yes, I do not believe Bull or Dorian as anything more than NPCs.  Novels and roleplaying are not the same thing. 

 

And... of course, at the end of the day - there's nothing he could say that would make me pro-his-apocalypse.

[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman: So, when they didn't know if this would be a franchise in DA:O... they were okay with loading us down with story lies of the Chantry and spending this budget of their in misdirection.

 

But now that they're probably very aware that DA4 will happen... "Solas" is the fact speaker. 

 

Makes total sense.  

 

Of course it makes total sense. The writers got together and said "hey, we now have a budget to continue the story. Let's take a lot of the stuff we set up as interesting religious legend and start doing stuff with that." There's nothing implausible or hard-to-swallow about this scenario. 

 

Don't forget, there's still a lot of the Dragon Age legend to explore. Solas certainly hasn't totally pulled back the curtain. But your viewpoint that Bioware spent millions of dollars on a total lie of a chapter makes no sense at all. 

[Sah291]

I don't think we know if Solas is telling the truth. We can assume is telling one version of the truth, as he sees it. But he's a mage and fade nerd... Which means everything is about subjective reality with him, and he points this out when you talk to him about Loghain early in the game. About how both accounts of the battle at Ostagar are true. That's not what folks who like objective facts want to hear, but it is the way the character is written, IMO.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Almostfaceman:  Again... you think I have to believe everything he said is a lie.  

 

- Did he make the Veil?  Maybe he just strengthened it.  Maybe he did make it.  Maybe he knew what it would do... but now he thinks he can reverse it.

- Were the Evanuris the evil beings he claimed them to be?  Or does Solas crave sole godhood over the elves and locked them away unaware that his Veil would destroy the people he wanted to rule over.

- Maybe he actually believes what he's saying... but he's wrong (I know - impossible that Solas could be wrong.)

 

That's just three possible misdirections that could be reality once we speak with other beings from his time. 

 

Point is... I knew what he wanted at the beginning of the game.  He tells you in Haven.  What he DOESN'T tell you... is that he's a being that could make it happen. I disagreed with him from his first utterances about the Fade.  I wanted to "deal" with him throughout the game... especially when we finally speak honestly to one another - but, the game doesn't let you because Bioware had to tell their little story. 

 

If you're okay with that and you still like him... by all means.  I am not.  

 

That you seem to think I have to or I'm wrong... is on you. 

[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman:  Again... you think I have to believe everything he said is a lie.  

 

 

 

Well, that's what you've been saying, repeatedly. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Well, that's what you've been saying, repeatedly. 

 

I said he was a liar - yes. 

 

I also said - maybe he's just wrong and he doesn't believe/know it. 

 

I said he was a manipulator - but I didn't say every second of your interactions is a manipulation.

 

Neither of those implies that everything he says... ever... is a lie.  That's not how liars work... real liars use the truth, or half-truths, all the time.

 

EDIT:  Also... I've never said "I'm right because I completely understand Bioware's intentions." - that's for other people to claim.  

 

All I say in these threads is: "I do not like Solas, my reasons are..." and "I do not believe he's correct/truthful, my reasons are..."

[Almostfaceman]

 

If you're okay with that and you still like him... by all means.  I am not.  

 

 

"Liking" Solas is irrelevant. Recognizing he's a method for moving the story forward doesn't involving "liking" his character at all. 

[Secret Rare]

 

 

The tragedy of this particular character is that what he perceives as his duty or a way to fulfill that duty goes against his core principles, against not wanting to hurt people yet inadvertently doing so 

It is not done inadvertently it is done on purpose Solas is well aware of the dangers of his own plans.

He knew about the explosion that the Orb would have caused he simply did not cared.

[Medhia_Nox]

"Liking" Solas is irrelevant. Recognizing he's a method for moving the story forward doesn't involving "liking" his character at all. 

This thread is not about using him as a plot device.... almost everything in game is a plot device.

 

This thread is about why people like Solas... so, I imagine for this topic it's not very irrelevant at all. 

[Almostfaceman]

This thread is not about using him as a plot device.... almost everything in game is a plot device.

 

This thread is about why people like Solas... so, I imagine for this topic it's not very irrelevant at all. 

 

It's not, but it was relevant to our conversation. We can discontinue now, that's fine. 

[midnight tea]

 

It is not done inadvertently it is done on purpose Solas is well aware of the dangers of his own plans.

He knew about the explosion that the Orb would have caused he simply did not cared.

 

 

Saying it's "done on purpose" misses the point entirely. And saying he does not care is negated by how he behaves in the game, or things he says to us in Trespasser. 

[Ieldra]

@Almostfaceman: So, when they didn't know if this would be a franchise in DA:O... they were okay with loading us down with story lies of the Chantry and spending this budget of their in misdirection.

You're deliberately obtuse here. The story of the Golden City is a religious legend, the core of Orlesian Andrastianism and as such an important aspect of the lore. It's also important for understanding the way mages are treated in the setting. Like with all religious legends, it doesn't matter if it's true. The important fact is that it's believed. *That* is the lore that is revealed here.

Also, it turned out to have more than a core of truth after all, didn't it?

 

@Ieldra: While roleplaying... yes, I do not believe Bull or Dorian as anything more than NPCs.  Novels and roleplaying are not the same thing.

Yet, roleplaying is collaborative storytelling. Storytelling rules apply to roleplaying as well, such as the fact that people don't tell you any useless trivialities, that almost everything you get to read, hear from people etc.. has some role to play in shapiong your experience, etc...very much unlike in RL.
 

And... of course, at the end of the day - there's nothing he could say that would make me pro-his-apocalypse.

That's a different problem. Almost everyone would want to prevent his plans. Doesn't mean he can't be viewed as anything else but a supervillain.

[midnight tea]

I don't think we know if Solas is telling the truth. We can assume is telling one version of the truth, as he sees it. But he's a mage and fade nerd... Which means everything is about subjective reality with him, and he points this out when you talk to him about Loghain early in the game. About how both accounts of the battle at Ostagar are true. That's not what folks who like objective facts want to hear, but it is the way the character is written, IMO.

 

I don't think Solas is that much of a relativist. He also tells to Blackwall or Cassandra that reason and sense is required to find out the truth in the Fade - if everything in the Fade was true, why would he even bother searching for "true truth"?

 

Same way with Loghain and Warden in Ostagar - it's true only in a sense that how Wardens or Logain viewed the whole situation.

[Medhia_Nox]

You're deliberately obtuse here. The story of the Golden City is a religious legend, the core of Orlesian Andrastianism and as such an important aspect of the lore. It's also important for understanding the way mages are treated in the setting. Like with all religious legends, it doesn't matter if it's true. The important fact is that it's believed. *That* is the lore that is revealed here.

Also, it turned out to have more than a core of truth after all, didn't it?

 
Yet, roleplaying is collaborative storytelling. Storytelling rules apply to roleplaying as well, such as the fact that people don't tell you any useless trivialities, that almost everything you get to read, hear from people etc.. has some role to play in shapiong your experience, etc...very much unlike in RL.
 
That's a different problem. Almost everyone would want to prevent his plans. Doesn't mean he can't be viewed as anything else but a supervillain.

 

1)  Okay, I can get with that.  However - why can Solas not play the same role.  That is exactly what I'm arguing here.  Why is Solas "the end".  I'm saying:  "There's going to be more to it - and Solas isn't going to be the whole truth and nothing but the truth."  I also believe that becaue I feel he lies through the entire game about several important factors... that this is a huge clue that maybe, just maybe, this ancient elf is very comfortable with fabricating his own legend.

 

2) You've never roleplayed useless dialogue that doesn't drive the plot to kill the goblin horde (or evil lich, or dragon or whatever) while roleplaying?  Bummer. 

 

NOTE:  Solas is not a "useless conversation" character... but if we're going to go meta - then I believe these characters are written extremely poorly to satisfy the fanbase while also telling a story.  

 

3) But viewing him as a supervillain isn't wrong just because someone finds him to be deep.  I do not find him deep.  I do not find his conversations compelling.  You can think it makes me wrong, or obtuse, or whatever you wish... but, that's the greatness of not having you in my playthrough (and vice versa).  

 

It seems, however, that you must have everyone concede there is some deep level to Solas... or else they are all just not thinking about it in the proper way.

[Sah291]

I don't think Solas is that much of a relativist. He also tells to Blackwall or Cassandra that reason and sense is required to find out the truth in the Fade - if everything in the Fade was true, why would he even bother searching for "true truth"?

Same way with Loghain and Warden in Ostagar - it's true only in a sense that how Wardens or Logain viewed the whole situation.

Oh, I guess I do see him that way. It's not that he doesn't use reason or doesn't appreciate or understand objective facts... I just mean, he accepts that things can appear differently depending on what you expect to see or hear. It's how he lies through omission, without actually lying. You take for granted what you expect, etc.