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[nightscrawl]

I could be wrong, but isn't there a thing about the Andrastian faith that says Andraste is by the seat of the Maker trying to talk him into coming back or helping out? I think that's why people start calling the Quizzy "the Herald of Andraste" because Andraste isn't seen as a person who has abandoned creation. 

 

I thought the Herald was called that because the witnesses who saw the PC stumble out of the rift saw a female figure and all assumed that it was Andraste, but as we know it was really the Divine.

 

As for the other, I really have no idea. I haven't delved that deep into the lore surrounding the Maker faith, I only know the basics. Even if that's the case, it's not really depicted that way in the game.

[midnight tea]

I was referring to if you choose to redeem him. 

Inquisitor: "You don't need to destroy this world. I'll prove it to you."

Solas: "I will treasure the chance to be wrong once again, my friend." 

 

Well yes, but this exchange doesn't invalidate or negate the other. Solas lets Inky go after them even though his chance of success hinges on something as small as revealing to Inquisitor too much during this short encounter.

[Almostfaceman]

I thought the Herald was called that because the witnesses who saw the PC stumble out of the rift saw a female figure and all assumed that it was Andraste, but as we know it was really the Divine.

 

As for the other, I really have no idea. I haven't delved that deep into the lore surrounding the Maker faith, I only know the basics. Even if that's the case, it's not really depicted that way in the game.

 

Well, yeah, they made that assumption that we found out later was incorrect. But I think they made the assumption because they see her as someone more sympathetic to the people than the Maker. I'll look into it and see if I can find anything. Because you're right, as far as the Maker goes, he/she is seen as someone who's given up on creation. 

[Xerrai]

They would not be drawn to Southern Thedas had Solas not given the Orb to Corypheus who created the Breach and the resulting mini-rifts.

 

Also, they attacked the Inquisition because they suspected the Inquisition to be working with Fen'Harel.
 

Yeah. And?

The Qunari were going to turn their attention to the South anyway (or are at least implied to. Iron Bull and Sten, both qunari operatives, have implied this).

That it came earlier or later is of little consequence. It was going to happen anyway, regardless of what Solas did or did not do.

 

Though curiously, it was possibly because of the Dragon Breath conspiracy that the South may be inclined to prepare for hostile qunari operations (rogue or not). Before they seemed to be operating under the assumption that the qunari (even offshoots)would never presume to invade the south. But now they have a reason to at least suspect hostility, and use this time prepare for that possible conflict.

[midnight tea]

They would not be drawn to Southern Thedas had Solas not given the Orb to Corypheus who created the Breach and the resulting mini-rifts.

 

I went in full detail into the issue earlier so I'll just be short - you don't know for certain that "they wouldn't be drawn to South" given that the Qunari would find any excuse or opportunity they could find AND because we know from DAO that their plans to invade were at least a decade old.

 

Second - it is entirely self-defeating to try and shift blame anyhow. I mean, you could as well shift the blame on Varric and Hawke for releasing Corypheus in the fist place... but we do know you won't do it, won't you?

 

The point is the Qunari wanted to invade anyway, and were stopped by none other than Solas (and Inquisitor) himself. For the moment the South is safe to rebuild thanks to their efforts.

 

Also, they attacked the Inquisition because they suspected the Inquisition to be working with Fen'Harel.

 

Nobody went after Inquisition or Inquisitor until they've crossed the eluvians and figured out that there's some secret Qunari operation going on. Which, you know, would happen to anyone they'd encounter.

 

Viddassala merely assumed that Inquisition is working with Fen'Harel, because for them it looked that way. Heck, it's not like they weren't at least somewhat right, but that doesn't make it a reason for attacking Inky.

 

I mean... what did you expect would happen?

 

Inky just saying to first encountered Qunari: "Oh, never mind us! We're just tourists!"

The Qunari working on super-secret mission to blow up Southern Leadreship: "Oh, ok then! Enjoy the views!"

 

 

Plus, the Inquisitor was the target anyhow, since he/she was an important political figure wielding unknown and dangerous magic. But Viddasala makes it pretty clear that they weren't supposed to know anything and just be blown away together with the rest. She squarely blames Solas's meddling in their plan of sneakily eliminating everyone.

[midnight tea]

Yeah. And?

The Qunari were going to turn their attention to the South anyway (or are at least implied to. Iron Bull and Sten, both qunari operatives, have implied this).

That it came earlier or later is of little consequence. It was going to happen anyway, regardless of what Solas did or did not do.

 

Though curiously, it was possibly because of the Dragon Breath conspiracy that the South may be inclined to prepare for hostile qunari operations (rogue or not). Before they seemed to be operating under the assumption that the qunari (even offshoots)would never presume to invade the south. But now they have a reason to at least suspect hostility, and use this time prepare for that possible conflict.

 

We see from treatment of Tal-Vashoth after romanced Bull's betrayal that the Southerners began treating the Qunari with suspicion.

 

"It was never clear if the Iron Bull knew if he would be forced to turn upon the Inquisition, or if he was lying the entire time. Regardless, after his death, Tal-Vashoth mercenaries across Orlais and Fereldan were looked upon with suspicion. Those who remained in the South found their lives even harder as a result."

 

Which is like... uuuuh, that's some mean description Bioware Rubbing it in, ey?

[Almostfaceman]

@nightscawl

 

Here's some more stuff I found out about Andraste.

 

First, when she was alive, she was considered the Makers Bride and one who was an advocate for humanity.

 

From an early age, Andraste suffered troubling dreams of a deity known as the Maker.[4] Over time she began to interpret these dreams as the answer to questions that plagued her, and she came to believe that the Maker was the supreme being who had abandoned the world when his people took up the worship of the Old Gods, those beings worshipped in particular by the Tevinter Imperium. According to Chantry canon, after having fled the Imperium and marrying the warlord Maferath, Andraste appealed to the gods[16] but her prayers went unanswered. She would sing, and one day the Maker, enchanted by her voice, invited her to join Him at His side. She instead encouraged Him to return to humanity and forgive them, compelling her fellow Alamarri and others to accept the one true god of Thedas.

 

There are also two Canticles of the Chant of Light that sort of support the idea of Andraste interceding on behalf of the people. Now since these are still part of the Chant, I would suppose that people living in the Dragon Age can take these canticles and use them to see Andraste continuing her advocacy from her seat at the Makers side. 

 

Canticle of Victoria

Now her hand is raised,

A sword to pierce the sun

With iron shield she defends the faithful

Let chaos be undone

-Victoria 1:3

 

Canticle of Maferath 

See also: Codex entry: The Canticle of Maferath

Spite ate away all that was good, kind, and loving till nothing was left but the spite itself, coiled 'round my heart like a great worm.

And in my darkest hour, I turned from Her and vowed that I would destroy Her.

At the moment of Her death I knew what I had done, and I wept.

I shall bring the lands of my fathers to Her Word. Therein lies their salvation and mine.

And She came to me in a vision and laid Her hand on my heart.

Her touch was like fire that did not burn. And by Her touch, I was made pure again.

Despair not, said She, for your betrayal was Maker-blessed and returned me to His side.

I am forgiven.

[Seraphim24]

Not sure what any of this regarding Andraste has to do with Solas, guess I missed something.

 

Anyway saying Solas can't be blamed for the Qunari is like saying the devastating earthquake isn't responsible for the Tsunami.

 

The problem is the Earthquake is a problem, period.

[Shechinah]

The Qunari were going to turn their attention to the South anyway (or are at least implied to. Iron Bull and Sten, both qunari operatives, have implied this).

That it came earlier or later is of little consequence. It was going to happen anyway, regardless of what Solas did or did not do.

 

Especially since the Qun would likely not look too well on the mage rebellions. They'd likely see it as an example of the South being insufficent in handling their magic and not curbing it the way they should especially if the rebellions ended with the mages being granted more rights and freedom.  

[Donk]

Solas is the Maker.

[midnight tea]

Not sure what any of this regarding Andraste has to do with Solas, guess I missed something.

 

Anyway saying Solas can't be blamed for the Qunari is like saying the devastating earthquake isn't responsible for the Tsunami.

 

Hmm, so people are suddenly as simple as non-sentient forces of nature? I don't think I should say that this is an extremely simplistic way of thinking,

 

The Qunari wanted to invade anyhow. We know that. It's indisputable. By your logic in this scenario the tsunami would happen regardless if the earthquake occurred.

 

Putting blame squarely on Solas shoulders - while completely avoiding Corypheus and any other factors, like the fact that Corypheus would never be a threat to anyone if he wasn't released by Wardens, Hawke and Varic - only shows an attitude of some people towards the character.

 

Also - no matter how badly you want to believe Solas is guilty, he's the one who eventually saved everyone in the South from this threat. So, by you logic... the earthquake actually stopped the tsunami.

[LOLandStuff]

I always thought you'd be dealing with the Qunari sooner or later after finishing Iron Bull's quest. Main reason being the Mark. That's not something they'd let slide and would hound you to the deepest darkest corner of the Fade if they have to.

 

Makes me wonder what would've happened to the Inquisitor if the Qunari and Solas didn't clash, especially a romanced Lavellan. Would they've been killed by the Mark?

[Seraphim24]

Solas jump starts Corypheus, the bad is really all right there.

[midnight tea]

I always thought you'd be dealing with the Qunari sooner or later after finishing Iron Bull's quest. Main reason being the Mark. That's not something they'd let slide and would hound you to the deepest darkest corner of the Fade if they have to.

 

We can find a codex in Vir DIrthara that reveals to us that one of the chief missions for Qunari/Viddasala's division is to find a way to strengthen the Veil - since the Anchor is something that can close as well as open rifts in it, it's impossible to think that they'd just let it slide: or wouldn't be interested with eliminating Inquisitor as quick as possible. Viddi makes it very clear that she's disgusted with Inquisitor walking free among their people, after they've fulfilled their purpose.

 

 

 

Makes me wonder what would've happened to the Inquisitor if the Qunari and Solas didn't clash, especially a romanced Lavellan. Would they've been killed by the Mark?

 

Don't think so - Solas does say to a friend/lover that "drawing you here gave me a chance to save you". So the purpose of letting Inquisitor travel through eluvians and let him know all the forgotten details and secrets of the past seems to be two-fold - stop the Qunari AND save Inky.

[midnight tea]

Solas jump starts Corypheus, the bad is really all right there.

 

Well if follow that logic, Solas also jump-starts Inquisitor and Inquisition.

 

But no - Corypheus was already there, plotting to take over the South. Obtaining the Orb made him more dangerous, but he was a huge danger in himself. He found Red Lyrium on his own, through Bianca. He built himself an army consisting of corrupted templars, Wardens, Venatori supremacists and demons. He allied with powerful demons in the Fade (Nightmare, Envy). His plan to assassinate Celene was thwarted at the very last second.

 

He didn't need the Orb for that. In many regards this orb was his undoing, as it was intended.

[Seraphim24]

Well if follow that logic, Solas also jump-starts Inquisitor and Inquisition.

 

No Solas doesn't jump start the Inquisitor or the Inquisition, that's pretty much Cassandra.

[Xerrai]

Woo! A lot of text to go through here. Might have to make this a 2 parter.

 

1) He wants magic to be practiced freely without any regulations or oversight whatsoever.

The without oversight part was confirmed, but never the no regulations part. Solas approves of relatively free magical research. But we also know Solas has views on how magic should be handled (for instance, blood magic should never become a crutch nor a passion. Necromancy of intelligent spirits should be discouraged) and has voiced how people who have used their magic to harm or become possessed should have action taken against them. That, to me, does not sound like someone who wants magic to be completely unregulated.

 

[...]

 

3) He behaved in a rather uncivilized manner towards the mages that tortured and turned his spirit friend. Yes their crimes are heinous, but we have the judiciary and we have prisons for a reason. My protagonist stayed Leliana from killing a spy because it was cold, treating people like trash. But when the moment came to stay Solas's hand against the mages that had done harm to his friend, I just feel my protagonist would have let him do what he needed to do. go ahead, Solas. A few strong words, maybe a punch or two. However, that doesn't mean I have to agree with his choices and he literally incinerated a couple mages that had no clue this elf was about to kill them. It wasn't a duel, it was calculated and swift rage. Meaning Solas, when pushed and hurt emotionally, resorts to very strong violence - Which is further reinforced in Trespasser where he reveals that he created the Veil and banished all the Evanuris for killing Mythal, which resulted in the doom of the Elven race as a whole.

Not to go off on a different tangent, but have you seen the judiciary system imposed in Dragon Age? Particularly for the Inquisition? There is no jury in your court. No people arrayed from which you can ask for opinions or viewpoints. It's you. You, the one who sits on the throne is the one who is both judge and jury.

This seems to be cases for other nations too. The Divine, the Emperor/Empress of Orlais, etc. They have the right to judge anyone brought before them with or without consensus from another political body.

Sure, you may have problems with how Solas handled the whole thing. I have qualms with it myself. But I don't see how anything Solas did was anymore "civilized" than you yourself do in the entire game. He was slighted, there was a crime (personal or otherwise), and the perpetrators were before him. So he dished out what he thought was judgement . You do the same thing the entire game (Servius, Alexius, etc.). The only difference was that Solas was not willing for the judgment to be handed to you, and there no fancy ceremony for it.

 

But as far the civility of it, Solas could have done a lot worse than incinerating them on the spot. They died in less than a second. He dragged it out no longer than was necessary. In general, Solas does not approve of making executions longer than they need to be, or making them a public spectacle. Just do the act and get it over with.

 

[...]

 

4) He does not view modern Elves as his people and is practically indifferent to efforts made to strengthen Elf-Human relationships. Worse still, he has no problems killing the modern Elves, who are the result of his actions, because he wants to make the world safer for some ancient Elves .

Debatable.

Whom he views as "his people" is anyone's guess. Particularly depending on how Solas progressed in Inquisition.

We get confirmation that he starts viewing the elves as people if you befriend/romance him. But even in the rival scenario where he doesn't like you, there are hints that his world view changes to viewing elves as people regardless of his impression on the Inquisitor and vice versa.

 

We do get confirmation that he does care about elves (ironically shown in the disapproval scene), When confronted about how he has abandoned them, he disagrees--though he does say he simply sees no way help them as they are now. He also disapproves if you claim that he doesn't care.

 

We also get confirmation that he is not indifferent to all attempts to strengthen Elf-human relations. In addition to approving if Briala rules alone, he also approves if you get Celene and Briala together. He also makes remarks on Clan Lavellan being wise enough to include themselves in involving themselves in human affairs.

 

Furthermore we get confirmation that he does have problems with killing modern elves for his plan ("I take no joy in what I must do"). Or at least if you befriended/romanced him.  I am currently to tired to investigate the rival cutscenes on the matter, but I'll assume nothing was said indicating open remorse for a disapproval inquisitor.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Not to go off on a different tangent, but have you seen the judiciary system imposed in Dragon Age? Particularly for the Inquisition? There is no jury in your court. No people arrayed from which you can ask for opinions or viewpoints. It's you. You, the one who sits on the throne is the one who is both judge and jury.

This seems to be cases for other nations too. The Divine, the Emperor/Empress of Orlais, etc. They have the right to judge anyone brought before them with or without consensus from another political body.

"I say what happened, then you say what happened, and then I decide who's right. That's why we call it justice. Because it's 'just us'!" - Mayor Tong from Avatar: The Last Airbender.

[Seraphim24]

At any rate, it's never been explained precisely why the world is in danger, necessitating Solas's actions.

 

Because he can't provide justifications, he is evil, I don't know what we keep getting separated here.

 

Consequently, since you and others can survive absent his actions, he is essentially attempting to kill you, so it's self-defense to stop him.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

If you and Solas aren't. friends, he also points out he doesn't like the qunari.

The Qunari share the same sentiment,but we have to admit that they knew who to use Eluvians.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Solas is the Maker.

 

Spoiler

Lol I return the favor

[Secret Rare]

Solas should be punished with Qamek and being transformed into a graceful Qunari,best punishment ever!

[The Elder King]

Fen'harel had something in common with the Maker before DAI. If the Maker never existed, it might be that the Andrastian myth is loosely based on Fen'harel.(while as this point it seems they're different things, both elven and Andrastian myths have Fen'hared and the Maker send the Forgotten Ones/Old Gods in the abyss of the earth). As I was reminded though so far Bioware expressed the intention of never reveal if the Maker is real or not. I don't know if they had or will change their stance.

It's true though that DAI and Trespasser's revelations were a big blow to the Andrastrian faith, both in-game and outside. Putting aside the revelation of the elven gods being real in some way, it's confirmed one of the Maker's actions was never made by him (in the case he exists) but by Fen'harel.

Not that it's all sunshine for the elven legends. Both the elven gods and Arlathan are proves so far to be much worse then the elves thoughs, on a level of the Imperium they loathe.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

 

Not to go off on a different tangent, but have you seen the judiciary system imposed in Dragon Age? Particularly for the Inquisition? There is no jury in your court. No people arrayed from which you can ask for opinions or viewpoints. It's you. You, the one who sits on the throne is the one who is both judge and jury.

This seems to be cases for other nations too. The Divine, the Emperor/Empress of Orlais, etc. They have the right to judge anyone brought before them with or without consensus from another political body.

 

The system was inherited from the Evanuris and never changed since then.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 Bioware expressed the intention of never reveal if the Maker is real or not. 

They shouldn't have any issue in dismissing  Solas as the Maker since he is no creator of anything.