4630 réponses à ce sujet

[Silcron]

Actually I think Medhia has a point here. Not exactly regarding the Veil for example, I'm completely sure Solas (probably not alone) created it, but think of the rebellion, of his relationship with Mythal, most of what we know about that is what he tells us os second hand accounts. What I'm getting to is that what if we get to talk with the Evanuris in the next game, what they'd have to say could contradict how Solas and his followers painted him and gives us a better idea of what really went down.

 

After all, if Fen'harel can be more than just a trickster, whose to say that the Evanuris can't be more than megalomaniac, very powerful elves?

[midnight tea]

Actually I think Medhia has a point here. Not exactly regarding the Veil for example, I'm completely sure Solas (probably not alone) created it, but think of the rebellion, of his relationship with Mythal, most of what we know about that is what he tells us os second hand accounts. What I'm getting to is that what if we get to talk with the Evanuris in the next game, what they'd have to say could contradict how Solas and his followers painted him and gives us a better idea of what really went down.

 

After all, if Fen'harel can be more than just a trickster, whose to say that the Evanuris can't be more than megalomaniac, very powerful elves?

 

I think it would come as no surprise if we'd find out that some/most Evanuris were more than megalomaniac immortal mage kings, plus I'm pretty sure that DA4 will spend quite a lot of time messing with us in that regard, or in regard of how we should view Solas, since they've basically mastered messing with player's perception (not necessarily in a negative way).

 

Thing is, it's also possible that Evanuris would have a vested interest in portraying oneselves as sympathetic or a hurt side, while they paint Fen'Harel as a trickster villain - I mean, they've done that before, didn't they? We can even find pieces of propaganda in Trespasser. So talking to Evanuris may not ever get us closer to "what really went down", only a version of truth they'd either believe in or try and sell you.

[Ieldra]

1)  Okay, I can get with that.  However - why can Solas not play the same role.  That is exactly what I'm arguing here.  Why is Solas "the end".  I'm saying:  "There's going to be more to it - and Solas isn't going to be the whole truth and nothing but the truth."  I also believe that becaue I feel he lies through the entire game about several important factors... that this is a huge clue that maybe, just maybe, this ancient elf is very comfortable with fabricating his own legend.

Solas account doesn't have the marker of a religious legend. Recall DAO's intro: "The Chantry teaches us that it was the pride of man that brought the darkspawn into our world." I don't see any such marker in our interactions with Solas, as opposed to the Dalish legends of him. With those, my default was "I don't believe that".

Nobody's claiming his account is "the complete truth and nothing but the truth", but it's clearly marked as a lore revelation, which means it's true in a general sense. It's actually so clear to me that if the next DA game told us the Evanuris weren't evil and Solas the villain of the story, I'd call that a retcon.
 

2) You've never roleplayed useless dialogue that doesn't drive the plot to kill the goblin horde (or evil lich, or dragon or whatever) while roleplaying?  Bummer.

Not in cRPGs, no. Because such options aren't usually written into these games. And in tabletop roleplaying, not as the GM, because I didn't have any attention to spare for trivialities.
 

3) But viewing him as a supervillain isn't wrong just because someone finds him to be deep.  I do not find him deep.  I do not find his conversations compelling.  You can think it makes me wrong, or obtuse, or whatever you wish... but, that's the greatness of not having you in my playthrough (and vice versa).

I said obtuse because you failed to recognize the role of the story of the Golden City as a religious legend in DAO's intro, not because you think Solas is a villain.  
 

It seems, however, that you must have everyone concede there is some deep level to Solas... or else they are all just not thinking about it in the proper way.

From my point of view, you're the stubborn one, not me. This latest exchange didn't have much to do with Solas. It was more about recognizing lore revelations as opposed to character propaganda on the meta-level. Remember my main Inquisitor said Solas isn't much different from those Evanuris he fought? Still, she also believes he's telling the truth in a general sense, because I choose to not to separate what I as the player am told by the writers through their mouthpiece Solas from what Solas is telling my Inquisitor as character.

 

I'll concede this though: We may get historical information that changes how we view Solas as a character. Again. However, I still think his story of the Veil will hold true.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Actually I think Medhia has a point here. Not exactly regarding the Veil for example, I'm completely sure Solas (probably not alone) created it, but think of the rebellion, of his relationship with Mythal, most of what we know about that is what he tells us os second hand accounts. What I'm getting to is that what if we get to talk with the Evanuris in the next game, what they'd have to say could contradict how Solas and his followers painted him and gives us a better idea of what really went down.

 

After all, if Fen'harel can be more than just a trickster, whose to say that the Evanuris can't be more than megalomaniac, very powerful elves?

 

inb4 angry female Lavellans...

 

There is the possibility that the pre-Veil world was a very dangerous one. I mean Spirits and Demons were everywhere. So were Dragons and Titans. That is not a very safe place. The best analogy I can give is the Avatar universe. Before Avatar Wan, the first Avatar, Humans lived on giant turtles because the world was populated with Spirits.

 

So it is possible that group of Elves decided to establish settlements in remote corners in the forests of ancient Thedas. These leaders then became Evanuris. Initially they had good intentions but they got drunk with their power.

 

See, there's me trying to put forth a viewpoint that might come from an Evanuris that perhaps regret their actions that is different from the pre-Veil utopia that Solas claims to exist.

[Lebanese Dude]

Solas is physically attractive?

 

Erm... I suppose... I admit I can't understand how women perceive attractiveness just like how I can't understand how some guys are into skinny twinks but hey whatever works for you

 

I still like him a lot though. He's the most interesting character to come out of Inquisition. I look forward to kicking his ass in the name of humanity in future installments. Hopefully I'll get the chance to redeem him too. 

[Silcron]

I think it would come as no surprise if we'd find out that some/most Evanuris were more than megalomaniac immortal mage kings, plus I'm pretty sure that DA4 will spend quite a lot of time messing with us in that regard, or in regard of how we should view Solas, since they've basically mastered messing with player's perception (not necessarily in a negative way).

 

Thing is, it's also possible that Evanuris would have a vested interest in portraying oneselves as sympathetic or a hurt side, while they paint Fen'Harel as a trickster villain - I mean, they've done that before, didn't they? We can even find pieces of propaganda in Trespasser. So talking to Evanuris may not ever get us closer to "what really went down", only a version of truth they'd either believe in or try and sell you.

 

Oh, I bet they would try to do that, but if we're trying to guess what really went down seeing their version would help a lot. To put a hypothetical example, what if Solas has all this time forgotten to mention that he did some nasty stuff to the Evanuris' family after they killed his dear Mythal? That might be something important to learn about what went down between all the propaganda they throw at you.

 

In the same way, Solas is also more than likely demonizing the Evanuris. Even if they were evil, as per usual in DAI they were likely not completely evil. (Even the archdemons can be argued to not be completely evil but just old gods that went insane after being afflicted by the Taint.)

[midnight tea]

inb4 angry female Lavellans...

 

There is the possibility that the pre-Veil world was a very dangerous one. I mean Spirits and Demons were everywhere. So were Dragons and Titans. That is not a very safe place. The best analogy I can give is the Avatar universe. Before Avatar Wan, the first Avatar, Humans lived on giant turtles because the world was populated with Spirits.

 

So it is possible that group of Elves decided to establish settlements in remote corners in the forests of ancient Thedas. These leaders then became Evanuris. Initially they had good intentions but they got drunk with their power.

 

See, there's me trying to put forth a viewpoint that might come from an Evanuris that perhaps regret their actions that is different from the pre-Veil utopia that Solas claims to exist.

 

Err... Solas doesn't claim that the pre-Veil world was an utopia (our world is not an utopia either, but sure as hell it would look like one if we found ourselves on post-apocalyptic Earth). On the contrary, he compares Elvenhan to Tevinter.

 

Dorian: Solas, for what it's worth, I'm sorry.

Dorian: The elven city of Arlathan sounds like a magical place, and for my ancestors to have destroyed it...

Solas: Dorian... hush.

Solas: Empires rise and fall. Arlathan was no more "innocent" than your own Tevinter in its time.

Solas: Your nostalgia for the ancient elves, however romanticized, is pointless.

Solas: If you wish to make amends for past transgressions, free the slaves of all races who live in Tevinter today.

Dorian: I... don't know that I can do that.

Solas: Then how sorry are you?

 

Of course, that doesn't change a very real possibility that the Evanuris was once a force created for a greater and generally just cause. I mean, it's not like DAI was pounding into our heads just how many (all?) organizations were created and aimed to accomplish something good, only got corrupted in the end, ey  ?

In fact, if you listen to Solas and his banters, especially with Cassandra or Sera after their personal quests you can get a feeling that he was indeed once an integral part of Evanuris, possibly going beyond Mythal's guard dog, as evidence in Trespasser suggests us.

 

They, in fact, may be a reason why he's generally not fond of organizations, or were a source of his first (or biggest, or at least very significant) betrayal, when it turned out that they've dropped any pretenses that they're on top for some sort of greater good, but for their personal ambitions, or what they thought world should look like.

 

It may also be the reason why he feels such overwhelming guilt and need to fix past mistakes - and the mistake might not even be the Veil per se. Oh sure, the Veil is a source of his woes now, but the reason that he was forced to create it may as well have been the necessity to protect the world from the very people he helped in their rise to power and - like Cassandra in case of Seekers - did so much he believed was good in their name, only for his trust to be used and broken.

[Sah291]

Well, it looks like they both fought a propaganda war...he demonized them (and built himself up), and they demonized him.

We won't get the truth easily that way, but we would look at the circumstances and make our own opinion. People would probably be sharply divided, like they were over DA2 mages or Templars situation.

[myahele]

It's certainly possible that his younger self wasn't all that great since one legend told by Felassan (one of Solas' agents that he killed) was was that he advised an elf to kill the sister of another elf just so that he could see her again and to try to court her in the funeral. The context was the elf was infatuated with a noble elf that he saw at a funeral, but due to status, he could never see her again ... so "Fen'harel" advised him to kill her sister or loved one just so there could be another funeral in which he could meet her again.

 

Then there's the whole "Slow Arrow" legend where The People asked Fen'harel for help. So he launched a "slow arrow" into the sky, so when the beast was busy killing of the adults/ elders the slow arrow fell down and killed him. While the adults may have died, the children still lived, thus saving them ... more or less.

[midnight tea]

Oh, I bet they would try to do that, but if we're trying to guess what really went down seeing their version would help a lot. To put a hypothetical example, what if Solas has all this time forgotten to mention that he did some nasty stuff to the Evanuris' family after they killed his dear Mythal? That might be something important to learn about what went down between all the propaganda they throw at you.

 

In the same way, Solas is also more than likely demonizing the Evanuris. Even if they were evil, as per usual in DAI they were likely not completely evil. (Even the archdemons can be argued to not be completely evil but just old gods that went insane after being afflicted by the Taint.)

 

Considering that Solas himself doesn't believe in concepts like evil, I find it unlikely that he'd think of them that way, or in fact thinks about anyone that way (... save the Blight?). Take Wardens for example: he doesn't think they're evil, he even gives them credit for buying the world (and him?) some time - what he thinks is that they're naive and foolish. When the mages bind his spirit friend, he thinks that their worst offense isn't some sort of nebulous evilness or bad intentions - what was worst for him was their stupidity and lack of empathy for his friend.

 

It's probably the same with Evanuris, who may or may not turn out to be his past comrades - they were not evil per se, but both their shortcomings and circumstances made them reach the point when they either crossed moral event horizon or lost contact with reality and it was imperative for anyone to stop them, no matter how many redeemable qualities they could have left.

 

Either way, I don't see Solas as someone seeing himself as a flawless hero and his enemies as snarling villains. In fact that's not supported by what he says in game, and especially in Trespasser, when he fully admits that he got his hands bloody and used 'countless people' in his fight against immortal mage-kings. On the other (other?) hand, I don't see him as one striking shamelessly below the belt - in fact, there's a feeling of him holding back, perhaps in hopes that things don't get as bad as they could, only for his hopes to get crushed ("when they finally went too far, I've formed the Veil and banished them forever").

[BansheeOwnage]

Looking back from Trespasser, you can see that nearly all of what Solas said held a version of truth to it. Possible exceptions being "I saw it [high court] in the Fade" and that "he came from small village" and "Skyhold's original builders can't be traced". But just about everything else he said seems to have a kernel of truth it.

If you really want to stretch it, those could be considered "truth" as well, if taken very literally.

 

1. If the fade an material world were one, and he saw political machinations (elvhen court) in the time of Arlathan, then he did see them in the fade.

 

2. Just because he knows who built Skyhold - very well - doesn't mean that they (Solas) can be traced, because after all, they were unable to trace it to him.

 

And yes, I'm joking. Mostly

 

To be honest, I forget too much about the village though. Didn't it exist in the past, but not anymore? In that case, it's possible he was from there, or that area. Though it seems odd for Solas to say he was from a village that no longer existed if he wanted to be inconspicuous, and it seems like a critical research failure on Leliana's part not to determine if that village even existed.

[midnight tea]

To be honest, I forget too much about the village though. Didn't it exist in the past, but not anymore? In that case, it's possible he was from there, or that area. Though it seems odd for Solas to say he was from a village that no longer existed if he wanted to be inconspicuous, and it seems like a critical research failure on Leliana's part not to determine if that village even existed.

 

Actually, the village exists - also, Leliana did indeed done her homework and made her research... that it took her some time is understandable given the circumstances, as well as difficulty of finding a remote place in a world without Internet, consistent records or quick means of transportation.

 

"I hate loose ends, so I kept a few of my agents searching, to verify his story. They recently located the village... or what remains of it. It is a ruin, as it has been for centuries, its name preserved only in degraded form in Ancient Tevinter mysteries."

[Secret Rare]

Solas is not fitting to live in this world just as he was not fitting to live in Arlathan.

He is a person who refuses to accept any standard short of his ideal perfection and will never make peace with the world regardless of its nature.

His home is the fade,it's the only place in whom he can find peace.

[Almostfaceman]

 

Solas is not fitting to live in this world just as he was not fitting to live in Arlathan.

 

 

What do you know about Arlathan that makes you say he was not fitting to live there? 

[Secret Rare]

What do you know about Arlathan that makes you say he was not fitting to live there? 

My perspective of course.

The loss of power, prosperity and status that leaded to its ultimate destruction he caused.

How much he disliked that society and how much he like the transcendental aspect of Thedas.

In short Solas seems to be totally unfitting to be with the  "physical ",he reminds way too much to a spirit  and was  perfectly fine only with one of his kind with Cole.

[Almostfaceman]

 

The loss of power, prosperity and status that leaded to its ultimate destruction he caused.

How much he disliked that society and how much he like the transcendental aspect of Thedas.

In short Solas seems to be totally unfitting to be with the  "physical ",he reminds way too much to a spirit  and was  perfectly fine only with one of his kind with Cole.

 

 

Actually, the disappointment Solas feels in the "modern" elves and the nostalgia Solas has for the ancient elven empire points more towards him having a problem with the Evanuris, not Arlathan. I think he thought his people could handle the Veil once free of the influence of the Evanuris. 

 

Solas uses the Fade for knowledge and he values the spirits there but I can't recall any comments he makes that points towards him having some kind of problem with the people of Arlathan. He values them so much that rather than lose himself forever in the Fade, he endeavors to restore the elves to what they were before the problem of the Evanuris messed everything up. 

[Yumakooma]

Well I'm a guy and so far since I only played Inquisition once, and with a male inquisitor, I had no chance to romance him. However I did see him as a kinda 'bro' to my Inquisitor... its always useful to have a know-it-all friend by your side

 

I like how is is before the events at the end of the game, as a companion he was a pretty neat character. To me, the DLC made him a lot less likeable and while he still seemed to hold a lot of knowledge and wisdom, he had an aura of arrogance about him, although that was slightly tamed by his kind manner. There is no doubt by the end of the Trespasser DLC he was a different person. I still thought he was a good friend through the main game but I just couldn't like him as much and I am fairly sure that is probably what the writers intended to happen for most of the players.

[Addictress]

Alright - then what I'm saying is, get ready for an "expansion" on what the bald rat "claims" - because he's not being truthful.

 

I posted once about having DA4 being a fact-finding mission to corroborate Solas' claims... I believe something like that "will" happen in DA4.

 

So... when the Evanuris give us their version... will you suddenly believe it.  It's the next new thing.

 

Or Mythal? 

 

What if we find some ancient Chantry manuscript (I "bet" you wouldn't believe this no matter what... I just have a hunch.)

 

You're reacting to Solas' information as if it were the end of the story... the whole story... and I am not.  That's all it really amounts to. 

Personally I think it would be way more interesting if Solas' monologue at the end of Trespasser were not the truth and he was, as you say, not telling the whole story, and that we had to corroborate his claims in DA4 and learn more of the actual truth in DA4.

 

The problem is that I don't think Bioware's really that sophisticated at the end of the day (sorry I don't want to insult anybody, I love you Bioware,) 

 

I think that is a degree of sophistication a level above what it actually is. =/

[BansheeOwnage]

Actually, the village exists - also, Leliana did indeed done her homework and made her research... that it took her some time is understandable given the circumstances, as well as difficulty of finding a remote place in a world without Internet, consistent records or quick means of transportation.

 

"I hate loose ends, so I kept a few of my agents searching, to verify his story. They recently located the village... or what remains of it. It is a ruin, as it has been for centuries, its name preserved only in degraded form in Ancient Tevinter mysteries."

That's what I meant by "doesn't exist anymore" - it's in ruins. Which doesn't change my original thoughts. It's odd that Solas chose to say he was from there (unless it's true and he really didn't want to lie) since it makes him look suspicious.

 

And I do think that's a pretty big failure on Leliana's part, since Cassandra was trying to verify Solas' claims since before the Inquisitor even met her, and it takes Leliana a whole year to do it? I don't buy that it was particularly hard, either, with the ease at which people in Thedas communicate.

[Illyria]

Well I'm a guy and so far since I only played Inquisition once, and with a male inquisitor, I had no chance to romance him. However I did see him as a kinda 'bro' to my Inquisitor... its always useful to have a know-it-all friend by your side

 

I like how is is before the events at the end of the game, as a companion he was a pretty neat character. To me, the DLC made him a lot less likeable and while he still seemed to hold a lot of knowledge and wisdom, he had an aura of arrogance about him, although that was slightly tamed by his kind manner. There is no doubt by the end of the Trespasser DLC he was a different person. I still thought he was a good friend through the main game but I just couldn't like him as much and I am fairly sure that is probably what the writers intended to happen for most of the players.

 

It's likely that in Trespasser he's playing the part of the Dread Wolf again.  He tells the Inquisitor that he was Solas first.  The man we met in Inquisition is the 'real' Solas, Fen'Harel is a mask he wears to do what must (or he thinks) be done.  At the end of the romance he tells Lavellan to harden her heart to a cutting edge - he's taking his own advice during Trespasser (a bad time to be taking his own advice.  Couldn't he have listened to himself more when he was talking about how it's not foolish to admit that you're wrong?)

[DuskWanderer]

The truth is, I dislike Solas for much the reasons the original poster provided: He is haughty and arrogant. Despite his genuine enthusiasm for people who are curious and ask questions, he is far too racist (particularly his last bit of dialogue for max approval) for me to really like. 

 

I find him fascinating and am repulsed by him, much like Hannibal Lecter. I want him to fail, but his motivations are curious. Unfortunately, Trespasser turned him into nothing more than a close-minded racist. 

[nightscrawl]

My goodness it's early in the morning for a Godwinning.

I gave you a like for this alone.
 

The only logical reason for there to be a redeem option in the ending of Trespasser, is that there is a redemption story to be told, and that the devs believe the character to be ultimately worth putting the resources towards redeeming. I'm not going to bother trying to change the minds of people who already have decided how the story and character work, but attacking other fans for finding a character enjoyable and sympathetic and ultimately worth saving, is just garbage.

I'm not going to weigh in on this Solas debate, but I do want to comment on the dialogue option itself. I think it's a valid choice for role-play and the fact that the player was offered that choice is a good thing, regardless of whether or not it turns out to mean anything in the future.

My Inquisitor -- non-romance, male, human Trevelyan -- considered Solas to be his friend. Nonetheless, he was absolutely furious during the final confrontation. However, I chose the redeem option because that fit his personality the best, to try make someone see that what they are doing is wrong and harmful, for the world at large as well as themselves. I don't give a fig if that is not carried out in the next game. My Inquisitor said it because that is what he would say.

[Secret Rare]

Actually, the disappointment Solas feels in the "modern" elves and the nostalgia Solas has for the ancient elven empire points more towards him having a problem with the Evanuris, not Arlathan. I think he thought his people could handle the Veil once free of the influence of the Evanuris. 

 

Solas uses the Fade for knowledge and he values the spirits there but I can't recall any comments he makes that points towards him having some kind of problem with the people of Arlathan. 

I'm aware of one of the settled way of thinking and feeling about Solas as the guardian of the people thus his caring for them,however it seems to be more his sense of guilt mixed with the distinctive obstinacy of spirits of absolving their task at any cost to be the jolt and the shock of his sudden strong and unreflective urge and desire to act, rather than his love for the elves.

Is Solas willing to kill his own people and friends for lack of consensus or approval?

He did that with Felassan one of those whom in theory he had to protect.

He didn't seemed particularly in agreement with Abelas and the sentinels either and they were affiliates of her friend Mythal.

In short my conclusion is that ancient elves are not his people Spirits are his people.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

If I had put this into a real world perspective, one of my friends indirectly caused the Breach, hid it from me, and ends up wanting to do something worse than the Breach. All the while, we developed a friendship.. I would feel betrayed and definitely want to stop him. Redeeming someone like that is beyond my scope because he would either have to find another way or give up.

Otherwise, I think he's a great guy with good intentions. As far as just game related, I'll redeem him if the repercussions are not too harsh.

[duckley]

Women may find him interesting, different, clearly intelligent... girls not so much