4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

And unlike mage-templar conflict that was put on side-lines to make space for a much bigger threat, the fact that Solas wants to destroy/change the world was put at the forefront in the final and most crucial piece of DLC for the game.

 

Remember that we didn't know that the Mage-Templar war was going to be sidelined until we heard details about the upcoming DA:I. Until that moment, and even more so after Asunder, it seemed that it was going to be one of the greatest conflicts seen in Thedas in a while. But we know it was just a minor complication in the Inquisitor's path to glory.

 

After witnessing what happened after DA:O (no, the Warden won't be the protagonist and DA2 isn't about more darkspawn threats) and DA2 (no, Hawke won't be the protagonist and the Mage-Templar war isn't as big as it seems), I know that Bioware will do what they want to do.

 

To give an example, if suddenly Bioware decided to paint Solas as a big bad wannabe and have the events in the Descent play a more important role, it would be like what happened to Hawke's story, where the danger everyone was afraid of didn't amount to much and a villain from a DLC that not everyone played became the real menace.

[midnight tea]

-Hawke is one race with three personalities branches and it was not a nebulous character it was in fact more of a Bioware character rather than the player character still Bioware had thecnical difficulties to bring them back.

 

I see you ignored me saying "what prevents them from making improvements and taking it a step further and let US define the nebulous character, by basing it partially on choices made in Inquisition and partially on choices given in DA4?"

 

Because they didn't do it "right" the first time? Well now they know people would prefer to see more than just three default personality flavors. Solution? Give them ways to make choices through the story and variety of responses they can pick or is determined by their choices in previous title. 

 

Possibly complicated during game development, but realistically not more complicated than dealing with any other variables in the game, which includes recurring NPCs different attitudes towards past protagonists or quest results.

 

-The Inquisitor has the same issues of the Wareden is very nebulous and cannot be defined as an Npc.

If the warden dies it does not matter it is a non-issue since Bioware provide another character to replace them and yet the Orlesian warden commander  (which is unkillable) is not reused in DAI for the same issues the Hof and The Inquisitor have.

 

I've already addressed your "nebulous" point and I don't see a reason why I should now, since you only repeat what you said without hardly any supporting argument for your claim.

 

And really? How can you say that what the devs have explicitly stated in panels and interviews is one of the biggest issues of ever bringing a possibly dead character a "non-issue"?

 

You really can't see the difference of having to bring an entirely different character and adressing all the hurdles that come with it (creating entirely new content and VOs on top of everything else) and re-using the same character that doesn't have so many quantum states and DOESN'T require bringing a replacement?

 

The whole 'replacement' thing is the reason why BW has pretty much said that they won't ever be doing expansions like Awakening and that the entire thing was badly designed from the start. And the reason why Warden-Commander isn't brought to Inquisition is PRECISELY because not just their story - but their entire existence - is entirely dependent on story variables, of which there are simply too many.

 

-Ciri is not a valid example because Ciri is not only present as a protagonist in a small part of the game but is also an Npc which is sometime with the protagonist and since she has a personality she is perfectly defined.

 

Ciri is a perfectly valid example - same as GTAV - because it means that people are not confused or respond well to characters they can control, even if to an to an extent. That doesn't mean that BioWare will just copy what TW3 did, because realistically we know that they can't. And that doesn't mean that they can't expand on it, especially that they've explicitly expressed their interest with such stories.

Mike Laidlaw for Kotaku Asks from March'15 : "As to multiple protagonists? Absolutely fascinating and, yes, we have discussed it some. There are a lot of challenges in terms of helping the player identify with more than one created character, but it's a long way from impossible. I thought, for example, that the weaving stories of the GTA V protagonists created a really interesting flow in the story and the gameplay. I agree that betraying yourself would be super cool, so long as "the player" version of you didn't end up feeling like a chump."

[Sah291]

@Mistic,

I don't know. I agree they are gonna do what they want, and there is no way of knowing yet how big of a role Solas will be playing anyway.

But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to compare to the past two games. With Origins, they didn't know they were getting a sequel. With DA2, they thought they were getting an expansion. Hopefully the next installment isn't suffering either of these two problems, and they can just continue telling the story they've planned out, whatever it is.

[Addictress]

 

Mike Laidlaw for Kotaku Asks from March'15 : "As to multiple protagonists? Absolutely fascinating and, yes, we have discussed it some. There are a lot of challenges in terms of helping the player identify with more than one created character, but it's a long way from impossible. I thought, for example, that the weaving stories of the GTA V protagonists created a really interesting flow in the story and the gameplay. I agree that betraying yourself would be super cool, so long as "the player" version of you didn't end up feeling like a chump."

holy crap!! I didn't know someone from Bioware ever acknowledged the multiple-protagonist approach

[Macha'Anu]

holy crap!! I didn't know someone from Bioware ever acknowledged the multiple-protagonist approach

Me either. That is actually very interesting.

[midnight tea]

Remember that we didn't know that the Mage-Templar war was going to be sidelined until we heard details about the upcoming DA:I. Until that moment, and even more so after Asunder, it seemed that it was going to be one of the greatest conflicts seen in Thedas in a while. But we know it was just a minor complication in the Inquisitor's path to glory.

 

It's a matter of context and perspective - even if we don't know what will happen in DA4 for sure, we can't realistically get "higher" in terms of threat level than a possible end of the world as we know it, coming from a person who effectively created it. 

 

 After witnessing what happened after DA:O (no, the Warden won't be the protagonist and DA2 isn't about more darkspawn threats) and DA2 (no, Hawke won't be the protagonist and the Mage-Templar war isn't as big as it seems), I know that Bioware will do what they want to do.

 

To give an example, if suddenly Bioware decided to paint Solas as a big bad wannabe and have the events in the Descent play a more important role, it would be like what happened to Hawke's story, where the danger everyone was afraid of didn't amount to much and a villain from a DLC that not everyone played became the real menace.

 

We can attribute many of the problems with DA2 with its short development time and changes later - at one point or another DA2 was simply supposed to be an expansion to DAO, got a very short time to be developed as a standalone game and had its own major expansion cancelled, while the mixed response guaranteed that wherever they were planning to go with it, they're going to have to drop or modify  (there are some reasons to believe that at one point they've had full intention of bringing Hawke to DAIII as Inquisitor; in fact this is why Cassandra searched for Hawke).

 

DAI development and reception is a completely different story though. The game was given *more* development time and from both general critical and player reception as well as statements from BioWare and EA it seems that the game indeed was a success. 

Now they're done with designing for 5 platforms *and* tackling an entirely new engine or creating assets for it. From an outside perspective they now have much less problems in terms of development hurdles than they've ever had for any of past 3 titles. That's not to say that there aren't any problems we don't know of or they'd be able to create what they like. But the potential future does seem somewhat brighter.

 

And then there's also a fully intended scope of the story - the one in DA2 was more local and much smaller than what we have in DA2. Hawke might have been crucial, but it wasn't on the level of importance of, say, Warden and certainly not on level of importance of Inquistor, who at one point was the only person in known existence able to save the world AND has personal connection with what is currently the biggest possible threat for current world order. Whether they like, dislike or don't care about Solas doesn't change the fact that it puts them in a unique position, even at the very epilogue for DAI.

 

What's more - Trespasser itself is generally considered to be a success. Mike Laidlaw, on a fan meeting, even said (to one of the BSN users to attended the meeting) that it sells 'extremely well', which means that people respond well to the idea that Inky may be back, since the story strongly suggests it.

[The Elder King]

I'd like a dual protagonist, though I think it'll require a lot of work in my opinion. I'm not sure Bioware will do this. We'll have to wait and see I guess.

I do think that if the Inquisitor is back as a part of a dual protagonist we might see the other PC without race options to cut some cost.

[midnight tea]

holy crap!! I didn't know someone from Bioware ever acknowledged the multiple-protagonist approach

 

Me either. That is actually very interesting.

 

It is, isn't it?

 

Naturally it doesn't necessarily means that anything will materialize of such acknowledgement, but I consider it very interesting that Mike Laidlaw, who I noticed is generally extreeeeeeemely careful what he says or how he's wording it to the public, expresses vivid interest with multiple protagonist stories and says that it'd be difficult, but far from undoable.

[midnight tea]

I'd like a dual protagonist, though I think it'll require a lot of work in my opinion. I'm not sure Bioware will do this. We'll have to wait and see I guess.

I do think that if the Inquisitor is back as a part of a dual protagonist we might see the other PC without race options to cut some cost.

 

True - it's not like it's hard to realize that it would indeed be a difficult endeavor, no matter how they'd approach it. But given that DAI has generally a good reputation, the studio, team or franchise doesn't seem to be in any danger, perhaps they have more venues or opportunities to experiment with the approach to the story, or bring to life their vision. Fingers crossed!

 

As for lack of race options... it may be limited (it is limited in either story anyhow), but I don't think it's going away. Gaider said in one of interviews that it's one of reasons why they immediately began working on it when they got more development time for DAI, and that if it was possible, they'd include it in DA2 as well, even though it is - by design - a story with a more defined protagonist.

 

That doesn't mean that way more limited options for new PC is what will happen. I suppose it depends on the story or how it's going to be set. If we're going to Tevinter and we'd indeed play a Tevene (which I personally have doubts about) are there really that many options we can have, just purely from in-universe perspective?

 

If we play an elf, it'd likely be a slave. Most of Tevenes - soporati, at least - are humans. Mages in Tevinter are sort of separate from them, with a large deal of them being part of nobility. Dwarves have a large presence in Tevinter, with which they have generally good relations/trade relations, but the Qunari are generally considered as an enemy, and in fact in Trespasser it's made clear that there's an all-out war coming.

[The Elder King]

True - it's not like it's hard to realize that it would indeed be a difficult endeavor, no matter how they'd approach it. But given that DAI has generally a good reputation, the studio, team or franchise doesn't seem to be in any danger, perhaps they have more venues or opportunities to experiment with the approach to the story, or bring to life their vision. Fingers crossed!

 

As for lack of race options... it may be limited (it is limited in either story anyhow), but I don't think it's going away. Gaider said in one of interviews that it's one of reasons why they immediately began working on it when they got more development time for DAI, and that if it was possible, they'd include it in DA2 as well, even though it is - by designed - a story with a more defined protagonist.

 

That doesn't mean that way more limited options for new PC is what will happen. I suppose it depends on the story or how it's going to be set. If we're going to Tevinter and we'd indeed play a Tevene (which I personally have doubts about) are there really that many options we can have, just purely from in-universe perspective?

 

If we play an elf, it'd likely be a slave. Most of Tevenes - soporati, at least - are humans. Mages in Tevinter are sort of separate from them, with a large deal of them being part of nobility. Dwarves have a large presence in Tevinter, with which they have generally good relations/trade relations, but the Qunari are generally considered as an enemy, and in fact in Trespasser it's made clear that there's an all-out war coming.

Yeah, if our character is from Tevinter I think it's really unlikely we'll have race options anyway. Even if not, I think Qunari might be out regardless in the next game.

[dawnstone]

I don't know if they're going to make the former Inquisitor controllable in the next game, but by leaving them alive and important to the plot, they've left the door open for that character not only to be available for use, but available to train up a new power set via a prosthetic arm. Which I think would be super cool, and believe it would be wasteful not to use the established character to complete the story.

 

But, whatever happens, I feel like the Inquisitor has to make a significant appearance. A lot of the dramatic tension going forward, for me at least, relies on the relationship between the Inquisitor and Solas, and how that plays out. I may be mistaken, but it seems like they'd be abandoning a lot of potential continuity, just for the sake of making a new character. New players would still be able to create a "former-Inquisitor" character, and personalize them, I feel, and there's no reason they couldn't be caught up on the backstory in the intro. Tevinter is going to be new territory for any player going into the next game, whether it's a new character, or the old one.

[Almostfaceman]

And the conversation veered away from boring game fighting mechanics stuff to interesting story/dual PC's stuff.

 

[midnight tea]

Yeah, if our character is from Tevinter I think it's really unlikely we'll have race options anyway. Even if not, I think Qunari might be out regardless in the next game.

 

I suppose the only way of playing the Qunari case would be an imported Qunari Inquisitor Which in itself would be interesting - no less interesting than an elf Inquisitor trying to oppose/stop someone who effectively works towards restoring the elves (whatever that means).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, if our character is from Tevinter I think it's really unlikely we'll have race options anyway. Even if not, I think Qunari might be out regardless in the next game.

Great, yet another reason to not look forward to DA4. 

 

Just have the new PC share an origin regardless of race/class, such as slave/servant of an altus or magister. 

[The Elder King]

I suppose the only way of playing the Qunari case would be an imported Qunari Inquisitor Which in itself would be interesting - no less interesting than an elf Inquisitor trying to oppose/stop someone who effectively works towards restoring the elves (whatever that means).

Eh, the Inquisitor has its status to protect himself from suspicion, and he worked against the qunari invasion. A new pc, sadly, wouldn't have the same freedom. 

 

I think it's interesting, though not exactly for stopping Solas. His plans so far seem to go against current elves as well. Going against one of those you believed was one of your 'god', after the truth of your faith was revealed, but in a shocking way is definitely intriguing. Both Andrastian and dalish characters are really affected by those revelations, though in a different way.

[Mistic]

@Mistic,

I don't know. I agree they are gonna do what they want, and there is no way of knowing yet how big of a role Solas will be playing anyway.

But at the same time, I don't think it's fair to compare to the past two games. With Origins, they didn't know they were getting a sequel. With DA2, they thought they were getting an expansion. Hopefully the next installment isn't suffering either of these two problems, and they can just continue telling the story they've planned out, whatever it is.

 

Fair enough. I still advise caution, though. It's true that the development history of DA:O, DA2 and DA:I is radically different, but at the end of the day we have three actual precedents versus just speculation and wishes. The story they've planned out may not be what the fans think they've planned out, and even in the best case scenario the realities of development can't be controlled.

 

It's a matter of context and perspective - even if we don't know what will happen in DA4 for sure, we can't realistically get "higher" in terms of threat level than a possible end of the world as we know it, coming from a person who effectively created it.

 

In that case, Solas is a step down from Corypheus. Heck, even Solas thought he was going to cause a disaster of epic proportions and, depending on your choices, Corypheus might have won in one timeline and turned Solas into a red-lyrium battery, and only time travel allowed to undo that.

 

Despite his speech, Solas isn't intrinsically more dangerous than Corypheus was, and we have Old Gods, Archdemons, Evanuris, Titans and Maker knows what other things awaiting in the shadows. Also, Solas' plans tend to backfire spectacularly. It wouldn't be the first time he created a bigger problem than himself.

[The Elder King]

Great, yet another reason to not look forward to DA4. 

 

Just have the new PC share an origin regardless of race/class, such as slave/servant of an altus or magister. 

I said that there wouldn't be if the PC is from Tevinter. If not everything it's fair game, except for Qunari.

A dwarf can't be  from the higher classes though (and I don't think they can be slaves or servants due to the alliance with Orzammar). Only humans and elves would somehow work in that scenario. 

Beside, we still don't know which role we'll have in the game. It might prevent having race options, or not. There are a lot of variables to consider. I hope though that this time if they make the pc with multiple race options they plan the story about that concept.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I said that there wouldn't be if the PC is from Tevinter. If not everything it's fair game, except for Qunari.

A dwarf can't be  from the higher classes though (and I don't think they can be slaves or servants due to the alliance with Orzammar). Only humans and elves would somehow work in that scenario. 

Beside, we still don't know which role we'll have in the game. It might prevent having race options, or not. There are a lot of variables to consider. I hope though that this time if they make the pc with multiple race options they plan the story about that concept.

While Dwarves can't be taken as slaves, there is nothing about them not being able to sell themselves into indentured servitude. And Humans, Elves, and Qunari are fair game. 

 

I don't see how we can be in a story that prevents race options without also preventing class options. Since I assume we'll be able to be more than a mage, then the possibilities also leave race open. 

[dawnstone]

To give an example, if suddenly Bioware decided to paint Solas as a big bad wannabe and have the events in the Descent play a more important role, it would be like what happened to Hawke's story, where the danger everyone was afraid of didn't amount to much and a villain from a DLC that not everyone played became the real menace.

I've already seen people discussing this as a possibility around the boards, with Valta coming in as a major threat - like say, you cream Solas, and she pops up with a Titan and they knock the Veil down anyway. Don't ask me how that would work, but I can see it happening.

[The Elder King]

While Dwarves can't be taken as slaves, there is nothing about them not being able to sell themselves into indentured servitude. And Humans, Elves, and Qunari are fair game. 

 

I don't see how we can be in a story that prevents race options without also preventing class options. Since I assume we'll be able to be more than a mage, then the possibilities also leave race open. 

I was saying Qunari were out because of the recent problems/Tevinter problems. Depening on how situation, if we're in a situation of power I don't see it working for a qunari.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I was saying Qunari were out because of the recent problems/Tevinter problems. Depening on how situation, if we're in a situation of power I don't see it working for a qunari.

Unless our position of power is also against the Tevinter establishment, or we are working for one of the more liberal factions that don't have a problem with it, or at least see it as better than the alternative.

[The Elder King]

Unless our position of power is also against the Tevinter establishment, or we are working for one of the more liberal factions that don't have a problem with it, or at least see it as better than the alternative.

After the events on Trespasser I'm not sure it'll be that easy for a qunari to be in a position of power. That's just my opinion though, they might go for it anyway.

[midnight tea]

In that case, Solas is a step down from Corypheus. Heck, even Solas thought he was going to cause a disaster of epic proportions and, depending on your choices, Corypheus might have won in one timeline and turned Solas into a red-lyrium battery, and only time travel allowed to undo that.

 

Despite his speech, Solas isn't intrinsically more dangerous than Corypheus was, and we have Old Gods, Archdemons, Evanuris, Titans and Maker knows what other things awaiting in the shadows. Also, Solas' plans tend to backfire spectacularly. It wouldn't be the first time he created a bigger problem than himself.

 

Not really sure I see how he's a stepdown from Corypheus. We don't really know how that 'end of the world' would really look, but I don't just judge the threat of Coryhpeus only because we saw that we absolutely have to stop him to prevent the dark future we saw in Redcliffe. Even in Redcliffe it was sort of implied that despite Cory getting portion of what he wanted (dominance over the world) he didn't really get it all - he was unable to recreate the Anchor and enter the Black City and was about to lash out at Alexius for his failure to turn back time before the Conclave. And despite having his own agency, Corypheus always felt like a pawn or a red herring - someone who is a threat, but only because he's used by other powers or uses powers he doesn't really understand.

 

Plus - I don't just mean "threat" just in terms of danger of the world. Unlike Corypheus Solas seems to know A LOT about the past - the Old Gods, Archdemons, Evanuris, Titans, and maybe not the Maker, but certainly the Blight, how the world was before, and what is it that he thinks the people are lacking. Heck, he was the one who was there and who ultimately defeated the uber-powerful immortal-mage-kings and crated the Veil that shrouds the world. Corypheus "credentials" in terms of sheer power - or sheer knowledge how to do something so world-shattering - pales in comparison.

 

So it's not just that he threatens the world of Thedas; he genuinely threatens to undermine our entire knowledge or perception of the universe, which also brings about the deep personal conflict our character *could* fall into, if it turns out that Solas's plan isn't as straightforward as "I will destroy the world and restore the elves".

[Heimdall]

I was saying Qunari were out because of the recent problems/Tevinter problems. Depening on how situation, if we're in a situation of power I don't see it working for a qunari.

It could.

 

There's evidence that the sight of a qunari on the streets of Minrathous isn't unknown.  One of Iron Bull's banters suggests he was able to move around there, apparently unhindered.  It would surprise me if Tal-Vashoth mercenary companies are frequently employed by Tevinter against the Qunari.

 

Of course, I suspect a new PC would fairly early on receive sponsorship from someone like Dorian, which would go a long way to negating any negative effect of the current conflict.

[German Soldier]

There are high chances for the Inquisitor to not be brought back

1)The Inquisitor like the warden is a non clearly defined character and is also highly customizable unlike Hawke.
The warden was not reused for the same reason and not because it could have been dead,this was actually mentioned in several interviews,BioWare was unable to replicate their personality.

2) The Inquisitor is a relatively unpopular character and BioWare proved time and time again that they cut unpopular characters.
Why i said it is unpopular?
For the simple reason that i read every source from fans(not just Bsn or the Blanketfort) and the vibe is quite similar many players don't like this protagonist which would most likely make DA4 unappealing for them.

3)New players don't care about an old protagonist which does not have a clear personality,why BioWare should forced on them their "canon" Inquisitor?