4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Oh, you mean the very same people who had the briiiiilliant idea for killing the remaining Old Gods without really asking themselves whether they really know enough by Old Gods to not consider this might have disastrous results?

 

They were the ones who might have unlocked Corypheus, but I'd like to point out that they've eventually helped to let him escape and let themselves being manipulated by him and began creating a demon army for him, because most of the Wardens - not even seniors - DIDN'T KNOW about Corypheus existence or what he was.

 

Yeah, I don't think they have any answers Solas would be satisfied with.

 

So you would judge the Grey Wardens but leave Solas scot-free and see him as some form of savior ? Typical. I am going to quote myself here:-

 

Its not that. Its the fact that Solas deliberately and intentionally planned for the Orb to fall to Corypheus hands and he knew that there will be a large explosion when Corypheus unlocked his Orb. He knew that the explosion caused by unlocking the Orb would kill a lot of people, he knew that he would be handing it to someone who views and treats Elves as garbage rats yet he did it anyway. The worst part is that he got away scot-free and did not have to face the music.

 

Hawke and Varric did not deliberately and intentionally unleash Corypheus. Hawke and Varric did not plan to blow up any place and kill lots of people. Other characters in game such as Captain Thom Rainier, Mayor Gregory Dedrick and Mistress Poulin had to face the consequences of their actions and be judged for it. Solas escaped this and now, he plans to kill a lot more people.

 

Intent matters when it comes to crime. Solas, through his agents, had every intent of giving the Orb to someone who viewed Elves as garbage rats. Solas had every intent of letting that Orb cause a massive explosion which would result in a huge loss of life. Likewise, we learn in Trespasser that he plans to intentionally commit mass genocide.

 

One of the major reasons people dislike Solas that you are unable to understand is that Solas has deliberately and intentionally responsible for one mass murder, he intentionally and deliberately withheld vital information via lie by omission and now he is deliberately and intentionally planning another one - Yet he gets to walk away scot-free without any form of punishment.

 

Cause:- Solas created the Veil, banished the Evanuris and went to sleep.

Effect:- The Elven empire fell, the Elven people lost their immortality, many Elves lost their ability to use magic.

 

Cause:- Solas allowed Corypheus to have his Orb.

Effect:- An explosion that killed lots of people which resulted in a large hole in the Sky and lots of other mini-holes which caused much suffering across the continent.

 

Cause:- Solas romances Lavellan and chickens out at the last moment.

Effect:- Lavellan is heartbroken, she might lose her Vallaslin and she has to contend with Solas stalking her in her dreams.

 

Cause:- Solas' Orb is unwittingly destroyed.

Effect:- Flemeth has to die or lose her life force.

 

Cause:- Solas plans to destroy the Veil.

Effect:- The Evanuris are unleashed, the Titans reawaken, powerfully dangerous demons like the Nightmare walks scot-free, whole lot of people die, etc.

 

People who dislike Solas dislike him because he personally never gets to face the consequences of any of his actions at all. Its always everyone else that suffers because of what he does, not him. I simply want him to personally face the consequences of his actions, like many other characters have had to.

 

 

 

[Lezio]

At the very least, Solas knew by his Fade dreams that the Wardens saved the world 5 times, and he, admittedly, destroyed it once.

 

I think the score was kind of in their favor, but of course he just judges them for helping, unknowingly, a maniac in the furthering of his plans (kind of like someone else did )

[Medhia_Nox]

Oh, you mean the very same people who had the briiiiilliant idea for killing the remaining Old Gods without really asking themselves whether they really know enough by Old Gods to not consider this might have disastrous results?

 

They were the ones who might have unlocked Corypheus, but I'd like to point out that they've eventually helped to let him escape and let themselves being manipulated by him and began creating a demon army for him, because most of the Wardens - not even seniors - DIDN'T KNOW about Corypheus existence or what he was.

 

Yeah, I don't think they have any answers Solas would be satisfied with.

 

So... the Wardens are stupid for blindly doing things without knowing all the facts regardless of their disastrous results?  I totally agree with you.  I think anyone who does this is an imbecile. 

[Illegitimus]

@Mistic,

I agree, Solas did not appear to know much about how Tevinter magic evolved since the days of Elvhenan and that they knew a method for immortality. Whatever method the ancient elves used, the Veil prevented it in modern Thedas. But the Magisters found a loophole or way around it, and I suppose were taught magic primarily by the Old Gods, and did not get all their knowledge from the fallen Elvhenan.

The Old Gods were post Veil powers

 

 

No, I don't think they were.  Human worship of them postdated the Veil of course but there's no indication that the human worshippers ever encountered them when they were awake.  The founders of the old god cults just met them in dreams.  The time when they soared over the land as untainted super-dragons was before the Veil.  They are called "old" for a reason.  

[Seraphim24]

Here's the thing, no one has ever explained even the relationships between Old Gods, Titans, Stone, Evanuris, Mythal, any of these things with any great detail of accuracy including

 

1. Whether they are the only sovereign powers

2. How they interact with each other

3. What destroying one has in relation with the others, or precise consequences for the world generally.

 

All we really have is Solas going "people in the way, need to blow up the world"

 

We have a never ending pile of babble but nothing concrete or meaningful for the most part.

[lynroy]

Did he even know that Corypheus was an ancient darkspawn magister at that time and that he was sealed away by the Grey Wardens at one point?

 

 

Also, not directly related, but how long as he been "awake" by the time we meet him?

Solas? Just one year. "I woke still weak a year before I joined you."

[Sah291]

No, I don't think they were.  Human worship of them postdated the Veil of course but there's no indication that the human worshippers ever encountered them when they were awake.  The founders of the old god cults just met them in dreams.  The time when they soared over the land as untainted super-dragons was before the Veil.

Whether they existed before the Veil wasn't really my point, but that they ruled post Veil, precisely because the Veil didn't effect their ability to communicate with humans (through dreams--the one way all humans were still connected to the fade post Veil). So Tevinter magic, and their knowledge of immortality, was shaped by these gods.

And I thought the Old Gods don't become tainted until a Blight happens. They are just sleeping otherwise, but not tainted.

Solas is skeptical because the Wardens believe the archdemons cause the taint (by lurring the darkspawn above ground), but he realizes they aren't necessarily the cause of the taint, and that killing them might make things worse.

[midnight tea]

Its not that. It the fact that Solas deliberately and intentionally planned for the Orb to fall to Corypheus hands and he knew that there will be a large explosion when Corypheus unlocked his Orb. He knew that the explosion caused by unlocking the Orb would kill a lot of people, he knew that he would be handing it to someone who views and treats Elves as garbage rats yet he did it anyway. The worst part is that he got away scot-free and did not have to face the music.

 

Eh.. we went through this more then once, but here we go again...

 

a.) where do you get that "he knew that the explosion would kill a lot of people?". You don't need a mountain-leveling explosion to kill at least the body of Cory - Corypheus was already killed once by Hawke and we see him being obliterated by a much smaller explosion near Temple Of Mythal. That Solas predicted that there would be explosion doesn't mean that he predicted that it would be the explosion of such magnitude OR that Cory will take it at the crowded summit to pick a high-profile sacrifice. The fact that it created a Breach and that the Breach was such acute problem for Solas that he rushed to try and fix speaks against him knowing that the explosion will be anywhere close to the scale that it was; in fact we have reasons to suspect that things happened the way they did, because at its most crucial moment the ritual was disrupted by Inky.

 

b.) you don't even take into consideration that perhaps Solas chose Cory *precisely because* he wanted to eliminate someone who treats elves as garbage rats. In fact we do know that the plan was for Cory to be killed. In theory at least, it was a win-win situation - get the orb unlocked and the world gets itself rid of an unstable madman with dreams of godhood. It was hardly given to Cory for him to do with it as he pleases.

 

Hawke and Varric did not deliberately and intentionally unleash Corypheus. Hawke and Varric did not plan to blow up any place and kill lots of people. Other characters in game such as Captain Thom Rainier, Mayor Gregory Dedrick and Mistress Poulin had to face the consequences of their actions and be judged for it. Solas escaped this and now, he plans to kill a lot more people.

 

Solas didn't deliberately and intentionally gave the Orb to Corypheus to strengthen him or something. Neither Solas, nor Hawke nor Varric knew about his body-hopping ability and such was their mistake.

 

Also - Captain Thom Rainier, Mayor Gregory or Mistress Poulin got their arcs concluded during DAI. So I'm not sure why you're making it a point against Solas that he apparently escapes consequences, *when we know* that his arc isn't yet completed, nor we even know where the story ultimately will go. He himself tells us more than one time that he'll pay for what he does.

 

Intent matters when it comes to crime. Solas, through his agents, had every intent of giving the Orb to someone who viewed Elves as garbage rats. Solas had every intent of letting that Orb cause a massive explosion which would result in a huge loss of life. Likewise, we learn in Trespasser that he plans to intentionally commit mass genocide.

 

Yet the genocide or the giving the orb to Cory to empower him were never Solas's end goals or explicit rasons why he's doing what he does. It's strange that you say that intentions matter, while you ignore that his major intent is to save his people and fix what he sees as his grave mistake. But I suppose it's just easier to look at this in black-and-white categories...

 

One of the major reasons people dislike Solas that you are unable to understand is that Solas has deliberately and intentionally responsible for one mass murder, he intentionally and deliberately withheld vital information via lie by omission and now he is deliberately and intentionally planning another one - Yet he gets to walk away scot-free without any form of punishment.

 

Spoiler

Cause:- Solas created the Veil, banished the Evanuris and went to sleep.

Effect:- The Elven empire fell, the Elven people lost their immortality, many Elves lost their ability to use magic.

 

Cause:- Solas allowed Corypheus to have his Orb.

Effect:- An explosion that killed lots of people which resulted in a large hole in the Sky and lots of other mini-holes which caused much suffering across the continent.

 

Cause:- Solas romances Lavellan and chickens out at the last moment.

Effect:- Lavellan is heartbroken, she might lose her Vallaslin and she has to contend with Solas stalking her in her dreams.

 

Cause:- Solas' Orb is unwittingly destroyed.

Effect:- Flemeth has to die or lose her life force.

 

Cause:- Solas plans to destroy the Veil.

Effect:- The Evanuris are unleashed, the Titans reawaken, powerfully dangerous demons like the Nightmare walks scot-free, whole lot of people die, etc.

 

People who dislike Solas dislike him because he personally never gets to face the consequences of any of his actions at all. Its always everyone else that suffers because of what he does, not him. We simply want him to personally face the consequences of his actions, like many other characters have had to.

 

Gee... the only one not understanding here is YOU. Nobody is absolving Solas of all blame, doesn't see that he's done mistakes, or don't expect him to pay for his mistakes in one way or another OR ignores that those are valid reasons why people may not like him.

 

What people are saying is that you're oversimplifying the character (going as far as headcanoning him as a sex offender who mistreats his LI on top of everything else ) and motivations and have blinders that don't let you see either the complexity of the situation, the good points (like the fact that the Veil effectively destroyed the world *and* saved it, possibly from something far worse) or the fact that Solas's mission is as much his duty, as is his punishment.

 

Not only that, you're making assumptions about a story-line that that *has not yet happened* nor we have any certainty that would go in that direction. You have no intention to even consider that the picture you're painting is possibly skewed and entirely over-focused on the negative. So much in fact, that it skews not only your picture of Solas, but apparently of people who like him to any degree, which you tend to be condescending towards - and not even focusing on merits of arguments given in discussion or something, but going as far questioning either their general reasoning skills or attacking their gender, or making unfair, generalized statements about it, simply for liking a character you don't. Not cool man, not cool.

 

That some things Solas has done are deal-breakers to you is all fine and good - I simply look at the whole thing differently and I think we can try and discuss it until we're blue on faces, but not come to any conclusion, especially if you keep interpreting Solas as devil incarnate. In that case any discussion we could have is pretty much closed.

[midnight tea]

So you would judge the Grey Wardens but leave Solas scot-free and see him as some form of savior ? Typical. I am going to quote myself here:-

 

The only thing here that is typical is you interpreting my words in the least charitable way possible and accusing me of things I never said, or making assumptions about myself or my position I gave you no reasons to make.

 

Sorry, but you've made it obvious that you're in no way trying to be objective or fair here - you only see what you want to see, and that picture is binary to the point of being absurd.

[Illegitimus]

Whether they existed before the Veil wasn't really my point, but that they ruled post Veil, precisely because the Veil didn't effect their ability to communicate with humans (through dreams--the one way all humans were still connected to the fade post Veil). So Tevinter magic, and their knowledge of immortality, was shaped by these gods.

And I thought the Old Gods don't become tainted until a Blight happens. They are just sleeping otherwise, but not tainted.

Solas is skeptical because the Wardens believe the archdemons cause the taint (by lurring the darkspawn above ground), but he realizes they aren't necessarily the cause of the taint, and that killing them might make things worse.

 

Oh yes, they aren't tainted until the darkspawn reach them.  And yeah, I agree with Solas if that "we" kill the arch demons all we do is remove the lure that keeps the darkspawn mostly underground.  

[nightscrawl]

Whether they existed before the Veil wasn't really my point, but that they ruled post Veil, precisely because the Veil didn't effect their ability to communicate with humans (through dreams--the one way all humans were still connected to the fade post Veil). So Tevinter magic, and their knowledge of immortality, was shaped by these gods.

And I thought the Old Gods don't become tainted until a Blight happens. They are just sleeping otherwise, but not tainted.

Solas is skeptical because the Wardens believe the archdemons cause the taint (by lurring the darkspawn above ground), but he realizes they aren't necessarily the cause of the taint, and that killing them might make things worse.

 

But the Wardens aren't trying to eliminate the taint specifically, their primary goal in destroying the Old Gods is to end the threat of Blights. A Blight happens when the darkspawn find an Old God and corrupt it with their taint. Granted, if the taint didn't exist, they wouldn't be able to corrupt the Old God, but if the Old God wasn't around to be corrupted in the first place, then there would be no more Blights at all.

 

However, I'll grant that we don't know what will happen when all of the remaining Old Gods "die," either from a plan similar to the Wardens, or just from the two, and final, Blights happening (and hopefully being defeated). The call of Old Gods is what keeps the darkspawn forever tunneling in an attempt to find one. Presumably the darkspawn would have no more motivation to keep tunneling. Would they just mill around? Would their hive mind still exist without the call of the Old Gods to bind them? Would they turn their attention to the surface? If they aren't organized, and are mostly mindless, why would they do that?

 

I don't think anyone can answer any of these questions, not even the Wardens.

[midnight tea]

So... the Wardens are stupid for blindly doing things without knowing all the facts regardless of their disastrous results?  I totally agree with you.  I think anyone who does this is an imbecile. 

 

Oh, wait... so suddenly the Wardens are imbeciles, and not noble and knowledgeable heroes you portrayed them as in your first comment? 

 

That's some impressive flip-flopping.

 

...But at least that means that you agree with me that there exists a possibility that both parties aren't inherently villainous, and that their mistakes might stem from good intentions, even if their situation isn't straightforwardly comparable. But still - that's a new one for you, bravo. You're at least starting to see Solas in new light

[Sah291]

But the Wardens aren't trying to eliminate the taint specifically, their primary goal in destroying the Old Gods is to end the threat of Blights. A Blight happens when the darkspawn find an Old God and corrupt it with their taint. Granted, if the taint didn't exist, they wouldn't be able to corrupt the Old God, but if the Old God wasn't around to be corrupted in the first place, then there would be no more Blights at all.

That's true...and my headcanon reason why my Warden ditched the order to go research a cure.

But yeah, the whole thing brings up the question of whether the Wardens are just fighting the symptoms of a Blight, trying to stop the spread, but not the disease itself, and possibly attacking the one thing that is capable of controlling it--the dragons.

[Seraphim24]

It sounds to me like you guys want to go digging in DA2 and Origins to find the ultimate solutions to your questions.

[midnight tea]

But the Wardens aren't trying to eliminate the taint specifically, their primary goal in destroying the Old Gods is to end the threat of Blights. A Blight happens when the darkspawn find an Old God and corrupt it with their taint. Granted, if the taint didn't exist, they wouldn't be able to corrupt the Old God, but if the Old God wasn't around to be corrupted in the first place, then there would be no more Blights at all.

 

However, I'll grant that we don't know what will happen when all of the remaining Old Gods "die," either from a plan similar to the Wardens, or just from the two, and final, Blights happening (and hopefully being defeated). The call of Old Gods is what keeps the darkspawn forever tunneling in an attempt to find one. Presumably the darkspawn would have no more motivation to keep tunneling. Would they just mill around? Would their hive mind still exist without the call of the Old Gods to bind them? Would they turn their attention to the surface? If they aren't organized, and are mostly mindless, why would they do that?

 

I don't think anyone can answer any of these questions, not even the Wardens.

 

The problem with the Wardens is indeed that they're focusing on specific effects, rather than a cause for it all.

 

Although I'm not necessarily saying that it's entirely a bad thing - there's no way of telling if they *could* do anything with the taint, or what could they discover and what would be the repercussions of it.

 

But the Blight (as in, the entire force, not just the outpouring of Archdemon-led darskspawn) appears to be a far older thing than we may even suspect is, and there's even no telling if it isn't actually sentient. We do know that either something speaks through it (The Whispers in Red Lyrium... which is blighted) or it's sort of accumulation of Everything Bad that corrupts the living, no matter how powerful they are (again I'll mention the existence of a myth with Andruil being twisted by something vile).

 

With all that said... it appears that the Wardens have a consistent problem of both using questionable means to achieve goals, may look at the entire thing a little bit simplistically and don't seem to dug the issue (no pun intended ) at all, rather than just overfocusing on darkspawn and Archdemons... or, well, having a grip on Anderfels. 

 

I'm sort of curious what will happen with the Wardens in the next game (... or a book? Is it possible that we'd get a book dressing the matter?) - the HoF may be gone for good, but I don't think the order will just disappear without proper sendoff.

[midnight tea]

It sounds to me like you guys want to go digging in DA2 and Origins to find the ultimate solutions to your questions.

 

Er, meaning?

[Seraphim24]

Er, meaning?

 

Most of Solas's actions pertain to the creation of the world etc as well as figures from such, figuring there might be codex and/or other information from those earlier games to remember better what they say about this or that.
 

I'm just saying it seems to me here people accept that Dragon Age Inquisition is mostly in motion relative to world of Dragon Age generally, hence difficultly piecing together the puzzle.

[midnight tea]

Most of Solas's actions pertain to the creation of the world etc as well as figures from such, figuring there might be codex and/or other information from those earlier games to remember better what they say about this or that.
 

I'm just saying it seems to me here people accept that Dragon Age Inquisition is mostly in motion relative to world of Dragon Age generally, hence difficultly piecing together the puzzle.

 

Well obviously DAI isn't a standalone game or anything - and it's not like there are just games, but books and tomes of in-universe-related knowledge like World of Thedas 1 and 2. It's ALL designed to be a puzzle.

 

.... But both I and many people have been digging through them ever since the reveal that Solas is Fen'Harel. We may need to 're-dig' them a few more times, but hey - it's not like the release of DA4 is imminent

[Seraphim24]

Well obviously DAI isn't a standalone game or anything - and it's not like there are just games, but books and tomes of in-universe-related knowledge like World of Thedas 1 and 2. It's ALL designed to be a puzzle.

 

.... But both I and many people have been digging through them ever since the reveal that Solas is Fen'Harel. We may need to 're-dig' them a few more times, but hey - it's not like the release of DA4 is imminent

 

Right I mean Dragon Age Origins is like 8 years old at this point or something? I can't remember all of that game very well.

[Medhia_Nox]

Oh, wait... so suddenly the Wardens are imbeciles, and not noble and knowledgeable heroes you portrayed them as in your first comment? 

 

That's some impressive flip-flopping.

 

...But at least that means that you agree with me that there exists a possibility that both parties aren't inherently villainous, and that their mistakes might stem from good intentions, even if their situation isn't straightforwardly comparable. But still - that's a new one for you, bravo. You're at least starting to see Solas in new light

 

Where did I say they were "noble" "heroes"  don't invent crap...

 

You can be a knowledgeable imbecile... knowledge has nothing to do with whether or not you can apply it well.  

[The Elder King]

On the Wardens, I can say that DAI effectively ruined the last remaining organization/Country I'd ever envision myself being part of in Thedas.

[midnight tea]

Where did I say they were "noble" "heroes"  don't invent crap...

 

You can be a knowledgeable imbecile... knowledge has nothing to do with whether or not you can apply it well.  

 

You were obviously trying to put Wardens in good light before and implied that they've had knowledge Solas could use if he tried to reach them (which we don't know of, though we know that he at least went to Ostagar to see the history of battle recorded in the Fade).... And now suddenly they went from knowledgeable Blight-fighters, through being 'stupid and blind without knowing all the facts' to 'knowledgeable imbeciles'.

 

Geez, a little consistency please.

[The Elder King]

Well, if I was Solas I'd have at least try to ask them about Corypheus, before giving a ancient blight creature the Orb. Without considering the Wardens' idiocy in DAI, from his point of view they are the most knowledgeable about the Blght and the darskpawn. A try wouldn't have hurt.

[midnight tea]

On the Wardens, I can say that DAI effectively ruined the last remaining organization/Country I'd ever envision myself being part of in Thedas.

 

You'd think we could perhaps try and see what is hiding behind the walls of Weisshaupt?

 

I sort of wonder if we'd going to visit Anderfels... or any other country other that Tevinter for that matter (if we're indeed going to spend most time there). The eluvian network is open and there's no telling where it could take us, but we got a taste of 'continent-hopping' in Trespasser itself.

 

Plus, the banter between Cole and Dorian in Vir DIrthara suggests that Dorian has strong intentions of trying to steal another elvhen technology try and construct his own equivalent of eluvians. In fact, I find it interesting that there are epilogue slides (like romanced Dorian or romanced Cassandra) that imply that "Inquisitor appears out of nowhere" in one place or another... Could that mean that Dorian has succeeded? And that Inquisition will have its own mirrors to cross enormous distances?

 

I find that possibility intriguing, because it means opening new places we could reach without having to worry about realistic time it would take a person to travel from one place to another by conventional means available to people at that time. It could also mean that we may get different areas... I mean, I think I've read a forum post from David Gaider somewhere that mentioned that DA team would likely not resign from open-world exploration, but maybe we'd get more smaller maps or more dungeons, instead of "just" full zones? 

[Shechinah]

Well, if I was Solas I'd have at least try to ask them about Corypheus, before giving a ancient blight creature the Orb. Without considering the Wardens' idiocy in DAI, from his point of view they are the most knowledgeable about the Blght and the darskpawn. A try wouldn't have hurt.

 

Eh, the Grey Wardens did not intend for Corypheus to be common or even uncommon knowledge, as far as I know, so they'd likely be very suspecious towards someone trying to gather knowledge about him or his location even if it was another Grey Warden who was not tied to the group involved with or guarding him.

 

I think it'd be unlikely that Solas would be able to gather information about Corypheus from the Grey Wardens even through agents on the inside. He likely only learned of Corypheus after Corypheus had escaped and taken over the Venatori with what he learned likely being because Corypheus gathered followers and through them, knowledge of his existence spread allowing Solas' agents to gain knowledge.