4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Sah291]

Same, but apparently there's something we don't know. Like, it technically can still be linked to dragons perhaps, but on some other ways than what we think they could.

Well, we know the Old Dragon Gods, who Flemeth has been trying to save/purify, are the targets of the darkspawn, and have one by one become blighted. We know Flemeth was concerned about stopping the Blight, perhaps because she too could become blighted. Maybe she was able to resisit it long enough because she had Mythal? So hopefully that isn't foreshadowing of what's going to happen to Morrigan.

I'm not reading too much into it though, since they don't always stick to their original dev notes anyway. The Orb being originally Mythal's in the dev notes, but now called The Orb of Fen'Harel in game, for example.

[midnight tea]

Yes, companion dialogue are the hard hitting questions a man who wants to destroy the world should be asking.  

 

Yes, because I don't see anyone becoming suspicious when he suddenly veers on the matters of potential ending of the world as we know it, or anything that would automatically make him look suspicious, both for players and companions...

 

Also, you're implying that most of his dialogue are inconsequential or friviolous. But that's simply not true - many dialogues with Cassandra, Varric, Iron Bull, Sera... heck, even Vivienne, are serious and insightful, where he asks about their perspective on the matter, or offering/arguing his own. The most striking is probably his exchange with Varric about the lonely man on the island, his exchange with IB; his arguing with Vivienne about the fate of mages and magic or talks pertaining the matters of faith with Cassandra.

[Medhia_Nox]

Well since you ask...no.  There was no such group. Clearly Solas did talk to someone and knew something about Corypheus but there was nobody left who knew about Corypheus's bodyhopping trick and particularly not how it worked and therefore why Solas's plan for killing Corypheus wouldn't work.  

 

Well then... it was foolish of him to give his weapon of mass destruction to someone he knew exactly nothing about and could gain no information about from others. 

 

But heck... why not right - what could have gone wrong?  

 

Is there any wonder his rebellion failed so spectacularly with the destruction of the elves?  No doubt he blundered his way through that too.. since it had "unexpected results". 

 

Solas is in serious need of a mommy.  When Flemeth died... the poor man went off the rails making bad life decisions.

[Ellawynn]

Yes, companion dialogue are the hard hitting questions a man who wants to destroy the world should be asking.  

 

??? Okay, but how is that at all relevant? You're comment was basically saying "He doesn't care about asking questions or hearing other people's opinions he just wants to talk about what he thinks and only what he thinks." But that's blatantly untrue. Whether or not he should be asking opinions on his plans are a different question and comment entirely, and only tagentially related to the comment about whether or not he's a "question-asker" in general.

 

Just say you hate him because he wants to destroy the world - that's a perfectly valid and canonical reason, you know. I'd totally accept it. Just don't make up bullcrap about a character simply because you don't like them.

[Illegitimus]

Well then... it was foolish of him to give his weapon of mass destruction to someone he knew exactly nothing about and could gain no information about from others. 

 

But heck... why not right - what could have gone wrong?  

 

Is there any wonder his rebellion failed so spectacularly with the destruction of the elves?  No doubt he blundered his way through that too.. since it had "unexpected results". 

 

Solas is in serious need of a mommy.  When Flemeth died... the poor man went off the rails making bad life decisions.

 

Sure.  Solas is kind of a screw-up.  I think everyone knows that.  I mean he's modeled on Loki and Coyote so of course he's a screw-up.  

[Seraphim24]

Sure.  Solas is kind of a screw-up.  I think everyone knows that.  I mean he's modeled on Loki and Coyote so of course he's a screw-up.  

 

There's this bizzaro standard it seems though where like "troubled people" are somehow judged less harshly. It's always "lets get more information" or "Well you can look at in this light." Whereas people who more just transparently together and heroic like Cassandra it's suddenly lets look for any sort of problem.

 

Makes no sense.

[German Soldier]

Eh, the Grey Wardens did not intend for Corypheus to be common or even uncommon knowledge, as far as I know, so they'd likely be very suspecious towards someone trying to gather knowledge about him or his location even if it was another Grey Warden who was not tied to the group involved with or guarding him.

 

I think it'd be unlikely that Solas would be able to gather information about Corypheus from the Grey Wardens even through agents on the inside. He likely only learned of Corypheus after Corypheus had escaped and taken over the Venatori with what he learned likely being because Corypheus gathered followers and through them, knowledge of his existence spread allowing Solas' agents to gain knowledge.
 

The GW high secrecy policies at least prevent these kind of things from happening.

It would not be a surprise to discover that they know where the other magisters are.

 

Well it does raise a good point. If Solas was watching the world from the fade, how does he not know Cory is immortal, or that Mythal was still alive? Surely he is not omnipresent and all knowing. But he specifically knew about the Battle of Ostagar...but not Flemeth's intervention in that battle. And he gave his orb to Cory at some point, so he must have been watching him as well, but didn't know that the Wardens were keeping him in a magical prision, and that Hawke had freed him and failed to kill him.

Was Mythal hiding herself from him? Did he think she was just Flemeth, a powerful witch, or that there was nothing left of Mythal inside her?

Did he think Cory's immortality was weak/ineffective and was no match for his orb?

I recall that an user said that Solas went to Flemeth's hut but didn't find her,not sure if that is true.

[midnight tea]

Solas is an elf who has lived most of his life as a solitary apostate. He is an expert on the Fade, the world of spirits and dreams. He is polite, reserved, calm, and difficult to antagonize. Years of study and seclusion have made him incredibly intelligent, but also skeptical of the value of most poltiical goals and ideals. As such, he tends to pragmatism rather than idealism. He responds well to people who are intelligent and clever, and thinks less of people who are thuggish and crude.

 

Note that some of his lines are marked "ancient times", which is when Solas is remembering something profound he experienced in the Fade. These lines are written with a specific cadence. They should NOT be sung or forced into a sing-song voice pattern, but knowing that there is a bit of rhythm there might help the actor.

 

I did read it somewhere before (I think together with probably the most hilarious description for the bear in JoH xD). But yeah, I think it's a rather apt description, which also includes his preference of pragmatism over ideals. 

 

Which of course reminds me of Inky screaming to Leliana "Now is precisely time for ideals!"

 

Mostly because I see So... Many... Parallels... between Solas and Leliana I am at this point convinced that they're fully intentional and she was brought specifically to mirror at least a portion of his arc, and clue us in about many details, including potentially could Solas's and Mythals' relationship be like (like one like between Leliana and Justinia).

 

Like... how does Leliana's arc starts like?

 

"You know what to do. Make it clean. We were friends once."

 

.... Which sounds suspiciously to me like a (imperfect, but it's more about the theme) mirroring of the ending of The Masked Empire, where Solas kills Felassan. Thing is, nobody is there to stop him and consider other options. In case of Leliana we have an option to step in. That 'stepping in' in case for Solas for me is when Inky starts gaining his appreciation and trust. Both characters however are still on a route that can turn them into effectively something they hate. I recall some devs calling the hardening of Leliana as effectively turning her into Marjolane - something she feared becoming ever since DAO. There are even similarities between their characters to be made - they're both compassionate and thoughtful, they both want to be inclusive and fair to everyone, but at the very same time they have a darker side to them. They both feel the pull of the Game and intrigue and fostered a cynical/frightfully pragmatic side due to the nature of their role in the world.

 

Even Solas's description of Leliana on balcony scene sounds suspiciously like his own - 'she has a brilliant mind, but her faith was damaged. For her it's a matter of tactics now.'

 

And I don't think Solas just means religious faith, but her faith in the world and people. We can even talk about Thedosians with Leliana after they're chosen as candidates for Divine and hear her describe most people as small-minded and petty. Sounds familiar?

 

Barring some other similarities, the biggest bombshell for me is the description we find of Leliana's personal quest's results we can find in DA Keep:

Inspired: "Reminded of her principles and more certain of her role, Leliana shook off much of her gief and guilt at being the Left Hand of the Divine."

vs.

Steeled: "Certain she was doing the right thing, Leliana put her conscience aside to ensure the greater good was achieved."

 

Gee! The last one certainly sounds like we could attach it to Certain Someone, at least as of now!

 

That's not to say that the mirror is perfect or that they're basically spoiling DA4 to us that way But I certainly find all those parallels intriguing.

 

 

 

 

The odd thing is that, before you posted the pic, I was thinking of the cloudy eyes seen in DAO/2 and was confused since neither woman has those kind of eyes. It's odd that they should name those golden eyes that, since that is not how blighted eyes have been represented in the past. o_O

 

Yes, which is one of reasons I was like... "huh? What the hell?"

 

Like, maybe someone made a mistake, but I can't really see how two very distinct eye colors could be mixed up. Soooo... it's intentional? But what could this mean? ...Other than we may get some interesting reveals in the next game perhaps?

[Shechinah]

I recall that an user said that Solas went to Flemeth's hut but didn't find her,not sure if that is true.

 

I do not think it is true but I cannot be certain at the time. I can only say that personally, I cannot recall having heard or read that when venturing around on the Wikipedia.

 

It may be speculation based on in-game dialogue or it may even be a case of Word of God past on by a poster.
 

[Ellawynn]

There's this bizzaro standard it seems though where like "troubled people" are somehow judged less harshly. It's always "lets get more information" or "Well you can look at in this light." Whereas people who more just transparently together and heroic like Cassandra it's suddenly lets look for any sort of problem.

 

Makes no sense.

 

Well... how would you have us react to Solas' being troubled? Abandon ship and declare him the worst character ever? Like yeah, he's got issues. They're plain as day. Maybe no one goes looking for problems in him because no one has to - they're kinda front and center. And he's far more interesting for it.

 

And personally *Shrug* I've never been someone to dislike a character because they're "troubled" or doing something morally reprehensible. I don't really understand why we're supposed to hate characters just because they're maybe not good people. It shouldn't be a question of morality. It should be a question of interest - I find Solas more interesting than, say, Dorian, so of course I'm going to give Solas more leeway. I just like him more.

 

It's why I never understood those arguments that are like "Oh, you'll make excuses for that character but hate on this one for doing the same thing!" Yes. Yes I will. Because I like that other character more, and because more than one issue or facet of personality goes into me liking someone. So...?

[midnight tea]

There's this bizzaro standard it seems though where like "troubled people" are somehow judged less harshly. It's always "lets get more information" or "Well you can look at in this light." Whereas people who more just transparently together and heroic like Cassandra it's suddenly lets look for any sort of problem.

 

Makes no sense.

 

Of course it makes sense. It's not a bizarro standard as you basically confusing two different things.

 

Sorry, but Cassandra is pretty straightforward - which is not  to say that she's simple or simplistic, but she harbors no deep secrets, despite her work as a Seeker. And it's not even that she's not trying to drastically change the world or something - she's not a thousands years old being hearkening from times most have forgotten who's seen some really amazing and really messed up stuff and done things that had an impact on the world on global scale.

 

Like... sorry, but unlike Cass, for now we DON'T have enough information on either Solas's past or his plans, or what the past really was and how it relates to now - and we can't look at the entire thing in one specific light. This particular fact is pretty much indisputable. You can argue that we maybe have enough information to establish some things or directions, but not enough to claim with full certainty that we know where the story is going.

[Seraphim24]

Well... how would you have us react to Solas' being troubled? Abandon ship and declare him the worst character ever? Like yeah, he's got issues. They're plain as day. Maybe no one goes looking for problems in him because no one has to - they're kinda front and center. And he's far more interesting for it.

 

And personally *Shrug* I've never been someone to dislike a character because they're "troubled" or doing something morally reprehensible. I don't really understand why we're supposed to hate characters just because they're maybe not good people. It shouldn't be a question of morality. It should be a question of interest - I find Solas more interesting than, say, Dorian, so of course I'm going to give Solas more leeway. I just like him more.

 

Why do so many people struggle to just straight up admit that they play favorites and make excuses for their most beloved characters?

 

I never said I would dislike them because they're "troubled" but I don't know why that would be an excuse to view their behavior differently in the end.

 

Edit: Ok there's two posts here apparently.

[Seraphim24]

Of course it makes sense. It's not a bizarro standard as you basically confusing two different things.

 

Sorry, but Cassandra is pretty straightforward - which is not  to say that she's simple or simplistic, but she harbors no deep secrets, despite her work as a Seeker. And it's not even that she's not trying to drastically change the world or something - she's not a thousands years old being hearkening from times most have forgotten who's seen some really amazing and really messed up stuff and done things that had an impact on the world on global scale.

 

Like... sorry, but unlike Cass, for now we DON'T have enough information on either Solas's past or his plans, or what the past really was and how it relates to now - and we can't look at the entire thing in one specific light. This particular fact is pretty much indisputable. You can argue that we maybe have enough information to establish some things or directions, but not enough to claim with full certainty that we know where the story is going.

 

Old =/= Good.

 

Simple =/= Bad.

[Sah291]

I recall that an user said that Solas went to Flemeth's hut but didn't find her,not sure if that is true.

Yes, he mentions her hut in the swamp in one of his stories...so he must of had an eye on her, or was looking for her. Maybe he sought Flemeth's help with the Orb first before Cory, if he was searching for any ancient beings powerful enough to unlock it, but either couldn't find her or thought she was dead, so he went with plan B. The Warden potentially kills Flemeth, before Hawke later revives her from the locket, so she could have gone missing for a while.

[Ellawynn]

I never said I would dislike them because they're "troubled" but I don't know why that would be an excuse to view their behavior differently in the end.

 

Edit: Ok there's two posts here apparently.

 

Nah, I just went back and editted my post because I realized it sounded a bit accusatory. Sorry 'bout that. 

[Medhia_Nox]

There's this bizzaro standard it seems though where like "troubled people" are somehow judged less harshly. It's always "lets get more information" or "Well you can look at in this light." Whereas people who more just transparently together and heroic like Cassandra it's suddenly lets look for any sort of problem.

 

Makes no sense.

 

The double standard is that screwed up is admirable. 

 

People love failures... just like misery loves company.  

 

I prefer my flawed characters to try to fix themselves... not bask in their dementia.  

[Seraphim24]

The double standard is that screwed up is admirable. 

 

People love failures... just like misery loves company.  

 

I prefer my flawed characters to try to fix themselves... not bask in their dementia.  

 

I'm all for propping up the person who feels tormented, just, at one point is that coming at the expense of people that don't? How can you justify that?

 

Nah, I just went back and editted my post because I realized it sounded a bit accusatory. Sorry 'bout that. 

 

I didn't notice anything severe or such but, apology accepted I guess>?

[Reznore57]

Well then... it was foolish of him to give his weapon of mass destruction to someone he knew exactly nothing about and could gain no information about from others. 

 

But heck... why not right - what could have gone wrong?  

 

Is there any wonder his rebellion failed so spectacularly with the destruction of the elves?  No doubt he blundered his way through that too.. since it had "unexpected results". 

 

Solas is in serious need of a mommy.  When Flemeth died... the poor man went off the rails making bad life decisions.

 

This reminds me of this picture :

[midnight tea]

Well then... it was foolish of him to give his weapon of mass destruction to someone he knew exactly nothing about and could gain no information about from others. 

 

So we're going to another extreme then? Claiming that Solas has no knowledge whatsoever, instead of reasonably assuming that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

 

He likely knew enough to know that Cory may have power to open the orb - heck he may even know that Cory is dangerous and must be eliminated - but (like pretty much everyone else) he's surprised by his body hopping, which I'd like to remind you, is revealed to us all only during the last stages of he game, at the entrance of Temple Of Mythal.

 

But heck... why not right - what could have gone wrong?  

 

Oh I don't know - Cory conquering the South with his templar/mage/Warden/demon army and spreading Red Lyrium everywhere without anyone to stop them? And whoever knows what would come after him, especially with all the frikking red Lyrium and Envy impersonating important people or NIghtmare making people reel from fear.

 

Is there any wonder his rebellion failed so spectacularly with the destruction of the elves?  No doubt he blundered his way through that too.. since it had "unexpected results". 

 

Solas is in serious need of a mommy.  When Flemeth died... the poor man went off the rails making bad life decisions.

 

Sorry hon, but in your little tirade you forgot one detail - there would be no rebellion or Veil creation if the Creators didn't go off the rails first and possibly threatened the entire existence. Solas simply appears to have found himself in a position where there was no magical (well, metaphorical) solution to the problem that wouldn't come with grave consequences. That you want to spin this against him... well, your choice. I prefer to look at the full picture.

[midnight tea]

Old =/= Good.

 

Simple =/= Bad.

 

Point = missed. 

[Seraphim24]

Point = missed. 

 

Really? Tell me what part didn't make sense.

 

You said Solas harbors all sorts of deep ancient secrets and it thousands of years old, and that Cassandra is simple and straightforward and therefore less interesting.

 

Then I said, just because he's thousands of years old doesn't really mean anything, lots of pretty value-less things are thousands of years old. Cassandra is direct, so? I don't see why that's bad either.

[roselavellan]

Wait, who's judging Cassandra? I thought she was universally liked?

 

Regarding judging Solas, my thoughts:

 

1. We don't know anything about his plans beyond that he wants to "save the elven people, even if it means this world must die". This is what I've been scratching my head about: how can anyone judge him merely on vague intentions? I've been hearing most Solas fans saying that they reserve full judgment for when DA4 comes and we have more knowledge. So why then are Solas haters so quick to judge?

 

2. People's intentions do matter. If you're trying to do something good and there are unavoidable bad consequences, it's very different to doing something bad for the sake of those bad consequences. So here, Solas being "troubled" and always trying to do the right thing (by his people, not ours) is what sets him apart from most simple antagonists. It's like in law, where one would be judged less harshly if there were extenuating circumstances for what they did.

 

Like... sorry, but unlike Cass, for now we DON'T have enough information on either Solas's past or his plans, or what the past really was and how it relates to now - and we can't look at the entire thing in one specific light. This particular fact is pretty much indisputable. You can argue that we maybe have enough information to establish some things or directions, but not enough to claim with full certainty that we know where the story is going.

 

^ Yeah, this!

[Medhia_Nox]

This reminds me of this picture :

 

That is magical.  Thank you.

[FloraTheElf]

Uh... I thought that was acknowledged to be a dev mistake? You know, kinda like how Solas has missing dialogue at the well of him convincing you that drinking was bad, so in the actual game he's all pissed but never offered anything other than, "I won't drink, end of discussion.".

I'm so glad I saw this. I was confused as heck when I got his response for the first time after talking to him post ToM. My first time actually drinking from the well I was left wondering what the heck I missed ha

[Witch Cocktor]

2. People's intentions do matter. If you're trying to do something good and there are unavoidable bad consequences, it's very different to doing something bad for the sake of those bad consequences. So here, Solas being "troubled" and always trying to do the right thing (by his people, not ours) is what sets him apart from most simple antagonists. It's like in law, where one would be judged less harshly if there were extenuating circumstances for what they did.

For me, this makes me hate a person, or an antagonist, even more. Solas is no exception.

 

Proceeding to do bad things while having allegedly good intentions.

Acknowledging that you are doing bad things, claiming to feel bad about it, but then proceeding anyway.

 

I'd have even a shred of positive feelings about Solas if he truly just felt that what he is doing is right, and didn't feel bad about it.

It'd be a good example of banality of evil, which I've always found quite interesting.

 

But no, he is written to be '' sympathetic '' and I feel like there's an obnoxious push for me to feel sorry for him.

In reality, it just totally makes me despise him even more.