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[Medhia_Nox]

Wait, who's judging Cassandra? I thought she was universally liked?

 

Regarding judging Solas, my thoughts:

 

1. We don't know anything about his plans beyond that he wants to "save the elven people, even if it means this world must die". This is what I've been scratching my head about: how can anyone judge him merely on vague intentions? I've been hearing most Solas fans saying that they reserve full judgment for when DA4 comes and we have more knowledge. So why then are Solas haters so quick to judge?

 

2. People's intentions do matter. If you're trying to do something good and there are unavoidable bad consequences, it's very different to doing something bad for the sake of those bad consequences. So here, Solas being "troubled" and always trying to do the right thing (by his people, not ours) is what sets him apart from most simple antagonists. It's like in law, where one would be judged less harshly if there were extenuating circumstances for what they did.

 

 

^ Yeah, this!

 

1)  I don't judge Solas on what he "wants" to do.  I judge Solas on what he did that created DA:I.  I judge him because he gave a weapon of mass destruction to a darkspawn magister to cause an explosion.  I judge him because he withheld who he was for an entire year (and two more before I found out he was Fen'Harel).  

 

I judge him because no person I would consider 'good' would put me in a life threatening situation and then take advantage of that situation to fix his blundering.  

 

So when he says:  "I want to destroy the world." I don't instantly think: "Oh, he's being 'metaphorical'." 

 

2)  I agree.  What were Solas' intentions when he killed Felassan?  What were his intentions when he infiltrated the Inquisition with spies?  What were his intentions when he gives Corypheus a weapon of mass destruction to do with as he pleased?  What were his intentions when he has to secretly activated magical artifacts under the guise of helping you?  

 

He tells you his intentions... some people just want to say that his words are flowery and don't mean what he says like:  "as the world burns in the roiling chaos" or "if they must die, I would have them do so in peace".  Yeah.. he means the world is going to burn with passion in the roiling confusion of all of Solas' brilliance... and they're not going to physically "die", they're perceptions will die and they'll awaken to a dreamy Solas wonderscape.

 

Only... if he's speaking metaphorically and isn't going to do what he says... why's he "sad" about it?

 

OR... he's going to do what he actually says. 

[Ellawynn]

Wait, who's judging Cassandra? I thought she was universally liked?

 

Regarding judging Solas, my thoughts:

 

1. We don't know anything about his plans beyond that he wants to "save the elven people, even if it means this world must die". This is what I've been scratching my head about: how can anyone judge him merely on vague intentions? I've been hearing most Solas fans saying that they reserve full judgment for when DA4 comes and we have more knowledge. So why then are Solas haters so quick to judge?

 

2. People's intentions do matter. If you're trying to do something good and there are unavoidable bad consequences, it's very different to doing something bad for the sake of those bad consequences. So here, Solas being "troubled" and always trying to do the right thing (by his people, not ours) is what sets him apart from most simple antagonists. It's like in law, where one would be judged less harshly if there were extenuating circumstances for what they did.

 

 

^ Yeah, this!

 

Dorian and Cassandra were easily the most positively received figures from Inquisition. Solas probably got the widest range of mixed reactions. And I think Sera and Vivienne were the most negatively received (Please note: I'm basing all this on a popularity poll on Reddit, were Cass and Dorian had the bulk of favorite character votes, Sera and Vivi had the bulk of least favorite character votes, and Solas got high numbers in both categories, placing third in both, although favorite slightly outweighed least favorite.)

 

As for your first question - Solas fans are reserving judgement, and Solas haters are not, because as things stand a rash and shallow interpretation of Solas is the easiest way to paint him in a negative light. I'm sure that, if the roles were flipped and Trespasser painted Solas as unambiguously good, fans wouldn't be looking much deeper while haters would be writing massive essays on what's really going on.

[Mistic]

You're missing the point. I'm accepting the point of giving Cory the orb for specific reasons - what I'm NOT accepting is just seeing all the evil and ignoring all the good that either came out of it, or Solas actively worked for.

 

I have to ask: what is all the good that came out of giving Corypheus the orb? The Inquisition doesn't count, because that was Justinia's plan before the crisis started.

[Ellawynn]

 

He tells you his intentions... some people just want to say that his words are flowery and don't mean what he says like:  "as the world burns in the roiling chaos" or "if they must die, I would have them do so in peace".  Yeah.. he means the world is going to burn with passion in the roiling confusion of all of Solas' brilliance... and they're not going to physically "die", they're perceptions will die and they'll awaken to a dreamy Solas wonderscape.

 

Only... if he's speaking metaphorically and isn't going to do what he says... why's he "sad" about it?

 

OR... he's going to do what he actually says. 

 

...Have you ever considered the possibility that *gasp* some Solas fans acknowledge that he's probably trying to straight up destroy the world, no metaphor about it, but still like him anyway?

 

Like, I don't think he meant that the world will be "destroyed" because it will transform into some utopia. I'm pretty sure he says it'll be destroyed because whatever he plans to do will cause so much chaos that society will basically collapse and whole populations will be decimated, if not totally obliterated.

 

But I like him anyway. Villains are fascinating, especially reluctant ones.

[roselavellan]

For me, this makes me hate a person, or an antagonist, even more. Solas is no exception.

 

Proceeding to do bad things while having allegedly good intentions.

Acknowledging that you are doing bad things, claiming to feel bad about it, but then proceeding anyway.

 

I'd have even a shred of positive feelings about Solas if he truly just felt that what he is doing is right, and didn't feel bad about it.

It'd be a good example of banality of evil, which I've always found quite interesting.

 

But no, he is written to be '' sympathetic '' and I feel like there's an obnoxious push for me to feel sorry for him.

In reality, it just totally makes me despise him even more. 

 

Well, he's proceeding anyway because he thinks it's the only way to save his people, he says so clearly in Trespasser ("Sometime terrible choices are all that remain"). Then the Inquisitor who chooses to redeem him can say that he will prove to Solas that it's not the only way.

 

If Solas didn't care about other people's suffering, I agree he would be evil. But obviously that's not what the writers wanted for Solas. So it seems the writers wanted to show the sympathetic, compassionate side of Solas because they wanted us to understand that he wasn't a simple, evil villain. Perhaps you felt the way they did it was obnoxious, which is unfortunate, but the fact still remains that it's how they chose to portray him.

[Almostfaceman]

Also... I wonder if there's a group of people who have spent the last few thousands years dealing with the Blight and who sealed Corypheus away and knew he was immortal?  

 

I wonder if there was anyone Solas could have talked before going ahead with his plan that might have provided him with some knowledge? 

If only he was a question asker and not just a talker who admires questions directed at him.

 

You mean the tight-lipped upper-most echelon of the Wardens, who didn't tell anybody - even in the Wardens - about the Corypheus prison and certainly wouldn't tell a random hobo elf? 

[midnight tea]

I have to ask: what is all the good that came out of giving Corypheus the orb? The Inquisition doesn't count, because that was Justinia's plan before the crisis started.

 

Obviously the Herald/Inquisitor. No Orb, no Anchor (taken away from both Corypheus and Solas, I'd like to point out).

 

Add to that the fact that if Corypheus didn't expose himself in a way he did, he'd fall on the South with his macabric army and red lyrium and hardly anyone would know how to stop him.

 

Like... nobody really saw that he was coming. And he had most of his plans already at final stages, at best months or weeks away from realization - the Wardens were rounded (by huge demon) in Adamant crating the demon army, Templars were corrupted by red lyrium with a demon posing as their leader, the Venatori infiltrated the South and the ball where Empress Celene was supposed to be assassinated was already being organized.

 

I have no intention of painting the tragedy at the Conclave as a good thing. But it did have ironic consequences. Inquisition might have been built prior to Justinia calling people on the summit to urge unity, but it's the explosion and later Corypheus that gave people the cause to fight against and - in Herald - the cause to organize themselves around and pull the South from chaos it was in even before Corypheus blew the Temple.

 

Then there's of course Fen'Harel postponing his plans and having his ability changed enough to make a dent in his resolution and a possibility to probably redeem him/change his plans... whatever that means.

[Medhia_Nox]

You mean the tight-lipped upper-most echelon of the Wardens, who didn't tell anybody - even in the Wardens - about the Corypheus prison and certainly wouldn't tell a random hobo elf? 

 

Yes, I mean exactly them... I believe Solas is what we like to call immortal.  He was clever enough to manipulate the events of DA:I.  

 

Or... I dunno. How about the Chantry - who just LOVE gabbing endlessly about darkspawn magisters.  I mean... he had to know that humans don't have red crystals jutting out from their faces in the modern age.  He had to know "something" was up with Corypheus - and, how hard would it have been to ask a Ventori about Corypheus.

 

Or... maybe ask dwarves about the darkspawn?  

 

Maybe learn about this weird ability the archdaemons have allowing them to hope bodies.

 

How about the mages like Avernus?  Or the architect?

He has a "little" bit of time... being immortal and all (and I bet "someone" is going to say:  "Maybe things are really urgent, we don't know."  Sure, I can make all sorts of things up to justify anything.)  

Do you often blunder into really big decisions without any information? 

[Almostfaceman]

Well then... it was foolish of him to give his weapon of mass destruction to someone he knew exactly nothing about and could gain no information about from others. 

 

But heck... why not right - what could have gone wrong?  

 

Is there any wonder his rebellion failed so spectacularly with the destruction of the elves?  No doubt he blundered his way through that too.. since it had "unexpected results". 

 

Solas is in serious need of a mommy.  When Flemeth died... the poor man went off the rails making bad life decisions.

 

Yeah, you're using your hindsight to make a pronouncement on a decision. On several decisions, actually. Which is ridiculous. You don't have to be an incompetent boob for decisions made at the time to have unintended consequences. There's a little parable about that. It's called "For Want of a Nail"

 

For want of a nail the shoe was lost,

for want of a shoe the horse was lost,

for want of a horse the knight was lost,

for want of a knight the battle was lost,

for want of a battle the kingdom was lost.

So a kingdom was lost—all for want of a nail.

 

Every indicator was Corypheus was a Tevinter mage, interested in getting into the Fade and mucking about in the Gold City or Black City, pick your poison. Without the miracle of prophecy, he's the perfect candidate for ancient artifacts that may aid him in that endeavor. 

[Witch Cocktor]

If Solas didn't care about other people's suffering, I agree he would be evil. But obviously that's not what the writers wanted for Solas. So it seems the writers wanted to show the sympathetic, compassionate side of Solas because they wanted us to understand that he wasn't a simple, evil villain. Perhaps you felt the way they did it was obnoxious, which is unfortunate, but the fact still remains that it's how they chose to portray him.

Which is fine but the amount of people yelling '' but he cares about people, but he has good intentions, but he feels sad about what he is going to do '' is extremely frustrating to me, because I can't but let my jaw drop to the floor over the amount of '' undirect support '' he has. He doesn't deserve to be redeemed either, his actions are BEYOND the concept of evil to even think that he could be redeemed or forgiven.

 

Sympathetic villains are the most, absolute, evil.

[Almostfaceman]

Yes, I mean exactly them... I believe Solas is what we like to call immortal.  He was clever enough to manipulate the events of DA:I.  

 

Or... I dunno. How about the Chantry - who just LOVE gabbing endlessly about darkspawn magisters.  I mean... he had to know that humans don't have red crystals jutting out from their faces in the modern age.  He had to know "something" was up with Corypheus - and, how hard would it have been to ask a Ventori about Corypheus.

 

Or... maybe ask dwarves about the darkspawn?  

 

Maybe learn about this weird ability the archdaemons have allowing them to hope bodies.

 

How about the mages like Avernus?  Or the architect?

He has a "little" bit of time... being immortal and all (and I bet "someone" is going to say:  "Maybe things are really urgent, we don't know."  Sure, I can make all sorts of things up to justify anything.)  

 

None of the people you mentioned would have known Corypheus was nearly impossible to kill. Darkspawn die all the time. Meredith, a person under the influence of the red lyrium, is slain by Hawke. 

[Almostfaceman]

Which is fine but the amount of people yelling '' but he cares about people, but he has good intentions, but he feels sad about what he is going to do '' is extremely frustrating to me, because I can't but let my jaw drop to the floor over the amount of '' undirect support '' he has. He doesn't deserve to be redeemed either, his actions are BEYOND the concept of evil to even think that he could be redeemed or forgiven.

 

Sympathetic villains are the most, absolute, evil.

 

You care enough about a differing opinion on a fictional character to let your jaw drop? Why? This stuff is interesting to argue about for fun, but it's certainly not worth getting even slightly worked up over. 

[Witch Cocktor]

You care enough about a differing opinion on a fictional character to let your jaw drop? Why? This stuff is interesting to argue about for fun, but it's certainly not worth getting even slightly worked up over. 

 

Alright, I'll take this incredibly good advice to heart and never let myself get worked up about fictional characters ever again!

[Almostfaceman]

Yes, I mean exactly them... I believe Solas is what we like to call immortal.  He was clever enough to manipulate the events of DA:I.  

 

 

 

But nah. Weisshaupt wouldn't have told him anything. Solas would have had to make spies out of Wardens to talk to higher up Wardens to get the information. Or wait until a particular spy got promoted super duper way up there. 

 

Don't see that really working out. 

[Almostfaceman]

Alright, I'll take this incredibly good advice to heart and never let myself get worked up about fictional characters ever again!

 

Except Jon Snow. It's okay to get worked up about him. 

[midnight tea]

Which is fine but the amount of people yelling '' but he cares about people, but he has good intentions, but he feels sad about what he is going to do '' is extremely frustrating to me, because I can't but let my jaw drop to the floor over the amount of '' undirect support '' he has. He doesn't deserve to be redeemed either, his actions are BEYOND the concept of evil to even think that he could be redeemed or forgiven.

 

Sympathetic villains are the most, absolute, evil.

 

Well, perhaps he has a good amount of "indirect support" he has, because quite a few people see different things than you do?

 

It's also strange that you see people yelling all those supportive things, but don't see that there are people yelling completely opposite things... in fact you yourself are now "yelling" with definite claims like "most, absolute evil" and "beyond concept of evil".

 

Which, you know, is beyond... cartoonish.

 

Solas may have people who 'support' him here, but I don't think we ever saw such extreme on this side. No declarations of complete innocence, or absolving him from his guilt, plus a certain expectation that he'd work towards fixing his mistakes in some sort of non/less destructive fashion if possible and definitely no cookie for him if his plan turns out to be as straightforward as some claim here is. Really, nobody has ever pushed to such extreme as you and a few individuals here when it comes to the 'opposition'.

 

So yeah... people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[Catilina]

Which is fine but the amount of people yelling '' but he cares about people, but he has good intentions, but he feels sad about what he is going to do '' is extremely frustrating to me, because I can't but let my jaw drop to the floor over the amount of '' undirect support '' he has. He doesn't deserve to be redeemed either, his actions are BEYOND the concept of evil to even think that he could be redeemed or forgiven.

 

Sympathetic villains are the most, absolute, evil.

 

I have other opinion about forgiveness (I never said, never – nor this), but this is a really remarkable argument.

[midnight tea]

Except Jon Snow. It's okay to get worked up about him. 

 

The TV show or the book? (read all books, watched only 1st season of the show xD)

[Almostfaceman]

The TV show or the book? (read all books, watched only 1st season of the show xD)

 

Both. Read all the books and have watched all the seasons. 

[Sah291]

Which is fine but the amount of people yelling '' but he cares about people, but he has good intentions, but he feels sad about what he is going to do '' is extremely frustrating to me, because I can't but let my jaw drop to the floor over the amount of '' undirect support '' he has. He doesn't deserve to be redeemed either, his actions are BEYOND the concept of evil to even think that he could be redeemed or forgiven.
 
Sympathetic villains are the most, absolute, evil.

Maybe, but they are the most realistic, and the most human. Most people don't set out to do evil for the sake of evil, and don't see themselves as the villian. Solas does at least recognize himself as one.

But you are right. It's worse to know something is wrong, and do it anyway, then to be ignorant.

I think what is interesting about him is why exactly does he think he has no choice, when it seems clear he doesn't really want to go through with it.

[midnight tea]

Both. Read all the books and have watched all the seasons. 

 

I  was sort of postponing returning to the show until it turned out that I'm so many seasons behind. Now I don't know what to do 

 

But I wanted to chuck the book from my balcony when I finished it. For the exact same reason I wanted to throw DAI a few years later - at the realization that I'd have to wait years to see what's going to happen next D:

[Witch Cocktor]

Well, perhaps he has a good amount of "indirect support" he has, because quite a few people see different things than you do?

 

It's also strange that you see people yelling all those supportive things, but don't see that there are people yelling completely opposite things... in fact you yourself are now "yelling" with definite claims like "most, absolute evil" and "beyond concept of evil".

 

Which, you know, is beyond... cartoonish.

 

Solas may have people who 'support' him here, but I don't think we ever saw such extreme on this side. No declarations of complete innocence, or absolving him from his guilt, plus a certain expectation that he'd work towards fixing his mistakes in some sort of non/less destructive fashion if possible and definitely no cookie for him if his plan turns out to be as straightforward as some claim here is. Really, nobody has ever pushed to such extreme as you and a few individuals here when it comes to the 'opposition'.

 

So yeah... people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

 

I'm just, kinda confused what the point of this post is beyond calling me out? Which you do very well, I admit.

 

I wasn't talking about extremes at all. You don't need to be an extreme to make my baffled. My posts were really inspired by the whole concept of '' good intentions matter '' which I felt was an extremely irritating crutch to fall into, when arguing that Solas deserves sympathy/isn't as evil as one would paint him. 

[Almostfaceman]

I  was sort of postponing returning to the show until it turned out that I'm so many seasons behind. Now I don't know what to do 

 

But I wanted to chuck the book from my balcony when I finished it. For the exact same reason I wanted to throw DAI a few years later - at the realization that I'd have to wait years to see what's going to happen next D:

 

I highly recommend the show. But that's all I'll say. 

[Witch Cocktor]

Maybe, but they are the most realistic, and the most human. Most people don't set out to do evil for the sake of evil, and don't see themselves as the villian. Solas does at least recognize himself as one.

 

I'm... not really sure if it's realistic or human AT ALL? Could you explain a little more why you think it's realistic or more human, I'm honestly curious because I have my own thoughts about the issue.

[midnight tea]

I'm just, kinda confused what the point of this post is beyond calling me out? Which you do very well, I admit.

 

I wasn't talking about extremes at all. You don't need to be an extreme to make my baffled. My posts were really inspired by the whole concept of '' good intentions matter '' which I felt was an extremely irritating crutch to fall into, when arguing that Solas deserves sympathy/isn't as evil as one would paint him. 

 

It's hard to interpret saying things like "my jaw drops at amount of indirect support" or "his actions are BEYOND the concept of evil to even think that he could be redeemed or forgiven" as anything other than extreme... I mean, unless you meant that we're talking about his actions beyond such concepts as good and evil? I mean, I'm not buying it, but at least that would be at least interesting - and pretty accurate, depending on perspective  - point.

 

And I'm not really sure what's wrong with "good intentions matter" when we know that they do, including to our modern judiciary systems. It's a perfectly valid position to take - obviously it can't be all there is... but I'm pretty sure it never was. At this point it's hard to think what angle we HAVEN'T discussed.