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[Bayonet Hipshot]

This reminds me of this picture :

 

This is epic ! Now incoming rant...

 

My other problem with Solas is that he has been in this world for relatively a short time, but the only solution to this problem that he has come up with is mass destruction and starting over in the rubble. He has lived a very long life, yet he has not spent any real time trying to find a better way. He spoke to the Dalish for a short period of time and gave up because they did not immediately leap to believe his extraordinary claims. I mean, who would unless you show them genuine proof ? I doubt Solas showed them the Eluvians, the sanctuary, etc.

 

Speaking of Elves, Solas has been so dismissive of both City Elves and the Dalish that it is clear they do not mean much to him either. He is not trying to fix his mistake, he is trying to undo his mistake. There is a big difference there. Solas could rally elves across Thedas, Dalish or non-Dalish. In fact that is what happens post-Trespasser. With all his power and wisdom, he and the Elves could carve out a proper country for themselves if they wished via some diplomacy and show of force in Arlathan Forest or in Tirashan or in the Hunterhorn Mountains or even in the Deep Roads in a reclaimed Thaig. Instead, he is going to revive the world of a people that he killed.

 

As much as trying to save the elves is quite necessary and arguably even heroic, the incredible haste of Solas' plan that will cause maximum devastation is 100% about Solas, about how much he hates this world and does not want to keep dealing with it, about how little respect he has for all the people who currently live here. Only two years with the Inquisition was enough to make him start thinking of modern Thedosians, modern Elves included, as real people, yet does he stop to think about what he might feel in ten years? Fifty? That is another thing that pisses me off when it comes to Solas. In my opinion, Solas is rushing so desperately precisely because he is aware that the longer he is here, the more likely it is he will rethink this insanity. If he knows reconsideration will happen to him and his other agents, and he is moving quickly to destroy this world before it can because he will be damned if he will adapt and seek to save the elves without killing everyone else.

 

When you call him out on all this at the end of Trespasser, the conversation goes like this:-

 

Inquisitor: "You'd murder countless people?!"

Solas: "Wouldn't you to save your own?"

 

This really bugged me. I do not know why I did not have an option to say something like this:-

 

Inquisitor:- "No, you moron, I wouldn't! Have you been paying attention at all?"

 

Now here are some possible justifications from those with a sympathetic view on Solas and my replies to them:-

 

You need to try to understand his intentions what I imagine is a world filled with literal Tranquil. Regardless of whether or not Solas was exaggerating or intended to be taken literally another matter. How long would you want to live in a world where every person was replaced with emotionless husks barely worthy of being labeled as a living person? It would either be either learn to live amongst the shells, maybe eventually becoming one yourself, or take the chance to fix your mistake and bring back the world filled with real people. Sure you could live among the Tranquil and find bits of humanity still within them, but it would probably still not be enough.

 

To which I have to say that the rationale still makes it all about him, has him killing a ton of innocent people because he is unhappy, which personally makes me sympathize with him even less. Now, if his intentions were couched on the argument of deeply pitying the so-called Tranquil their lack of unbroken living, so he thinks he is giving them back something they no longer understand they need - Tranquil are content as they are, only non-Tranquil understand what they've lost - that would be one thing. Still arrogant, paternalistic, and not worth the loss of life necessary to bring it about.

 

To do what he did and have it all blow up so spectacularly in your face, to see that the thing you did in order to help bring peace only brought chaos, it would be terrible. Additionally, he wants to be stopped and oh we'll be able to change his mind, he's so lonely and guilty and needs his friend/lover to help him!

 

To which I have to say that does not justify a damn thing he's done or will try to do. I could even get past giving the orb away. He had just woken up, the world was completely new and strange and it would have been beyond confusing but only if he owned up to his mistake and stopped there. However, Solas did not do anything of the sort.

 

He tells you to your face that he only barely views you as an actual person, and everyone else is by extension less than the ancients, and that he plans on destroying the world. It is especially a slap when I think back to one of the first conversations you can have with him where he tries to argue about how Spirits are people. So they get more consideration than actual Humans and Elves and Dwarves because they are from "his" time and familiar to him. If someone looks me in the eye and tells me they are going to kill me and everyone I love for the sake of their own plans, I am not going to react with sympathy. I am going to do what it takes to keep that from happening because they are a monster that needs stopping. It hurts like hell for my Inquisitor because he viewed him as a close friend, but that does not change what needs to be done.

 

Yes, causing tons of death is bad, but Thedas IS so broken. Tevinter enslaved people like there's nothing wrong with it, the Qunari will kill people if they refused to join the Qun, the elves are living in oppression, casteless dwarves are treated worse than dirt, I can go on and on. He literally told Mythal that people needs him, and he knew that he needs to be punished for what he did, but he must do what he think is right.

 

Firstly, Solas makes it quite clear that modern Elves are not his people and his people refer to Spirits and Ancient Elves.

 

Furthermore, Thedas wasn't really any less broken before. It was just more magical. So magical that 7-9 powerful persons could enslave a whole race, for eternity. Not only does he want to bring them back, he will also bring back the conditions to create more of those, with no more Templars, Circles, Rites of Tranquility, Qun, etc. to keep them in check, just himself.

 

He is idealizing the past, hard. Sure the crossroads were great and the Elves are oppressed now across the world, but what is so great about killing everyone else so the Elves can oppress themselves once again? Tevinter, the Qunari, etc. probably aren't even worse than the Ancient Elven Empire! Solas is simply preying on the hopeless with lies about a grandiose past/future.

 

He is in dire need a good discussion with Briala or a Lavellan that allowed Clan Lavellan to rule Wycome peacefully, with Varric who gets elected as Viscount of Kirkwall and builds ties with Clan Lavellan in Wycome to improve their standing in Free Marches. That's three non-Humans that made lives better for Elves without killing lots of people.

 

As for telling Mythal that the people need him, that is what he tells himself. As stated above he could rally the Elves across Thedas to settle in Arlathan Forest or Tirashan or Hunterhorn Mountains or even in Wycome and Orlais if Clan Lavellan became the rulers there and if Briala is united with Celene. Instead he just wants to kill everyone to restore a past he is over-idealizing.

 

In Closing:-

 

I used to like Solas before. I used to like him a lot actually. I was around the Blanketfort quite frequently, just as Midnight Tea.

My canon Inquisitor (male mage Trevelyan) considered him to be a really good friend who was responsible in expanding his knowledge. Then came the revelations in Trespasser and as I stated above, someone looks me in the eye and tells me that they are going to kill me and everyone I love for the sake of their own plans, I am not going to react with sympathy, especially if I used to consider them a good friend. I am going to feel betrayed, I am going to see this person as monstrous and I am going to stop them. That's why I stopped liking him. I don't like Solas but I can see him be a good antagonist and a nice boss fight in DA4.

 

End of rant. Cheers.

[Sah291]

I'm... not really sure if it's realistic or human AT ALL? Could you explain a little more why you think it's realistic or more human, I'm honestly curious because I have my own thoughts about the issue.

Yes, because in real life, people who do such things for a cause or for the greater good, tend to have justifications for their actions, and reasons which are both reasonable and sympathetic to people, who support and give them power.

This is especially true in political conficts and wars over ideology, culture, and way of life, where an opposing ideology is always an existential theat.

[Witch Cocktor]

It's hard to interpret saying things like "my jaw drops at amount of indirect support" or "his actions are BEYOND the concept of evil to even think that he could be redeemed or forgiven" as anything other than extreme... I mean, unless you meant that we're talking about his actions beyond such concepts as good and evil? I mean, I'm not buying it, but at least that would be at least interesting - and pretty accurate, depending on perspective  - point.

 

And I'm not really sure what's wrong with "good intentions matter" when we know that they do, including our modern judiciary systems. It's a perfectly valid position to take - obviously it can't be all there is... but I'm pretty sure it never was. At this point it's hard to think what angle we HAVEN'T discussed.

Oh, yes, I WAS EXTREME, but I wasn't mentioning anyone else being extreme, that's what I meant.

 

Good intentions don't matter in terms of genocide, no.

[Witch Cocktor]

Yes, because in real life, people who do such things for a cause or for the greater good, tend to have justifications for their actions, and reasons which are both reasonable and sympathetic to people, who support and give them power.

This is especially true in political conficts and wars over ideology, culture, and way of life, where an opposing ideology is always an existential theat.

 

Do people who are willing to go to great lengths for a '' greater good '' have a tendency to see themselves as evil or villains, or do they just see themselves as right, blinded by the greater good? I mean, in terms of our world. I'd love examples if you have them, I'm so bad at anything relating to history or studies!

[Mistic]

Obviously the Herald/Inquisitor. No Orb, no Anchor (taken away from both Corypheus and Solas, I'd like to point out).

 

Add to that the fact that if Corypheus didn't expose himself in a way he did, he'd fall on the South with his macabric army and red lyrium and hardly anyone would know how to stop him.

 

Like... nobody really saw that he was coming. And he had most of his plans already at final stages, at best months or weeks away from realization - the Wardens were rounded (by huge demon) in Adamant crating the demon army, Templars were corrupted by red lyrium with a demon posing as their leader, the Venatori infiltrated the South and the ball where Empress Celene was supposed to be assassinated was already being organized.

 

I have no intention of painting the tragedy at the Conclave as a good thing. But it did have ironic consequences. Inquisition might have been built prior to Justinia calling people on the summit to urge unity, but it's the explosion and later Corypheus that gave people the cause to fight against and - in Herald - the cause to organize themselves around and pull the South from chaos it was in even before Corypheus blew the Temple.

 

Then there's of course Fen'Harel postponing his plans and having his ability changed enough to make a dent in his resolution and a possibility to probably redeem him/change his plans... whatever that means.

 

It's the parable of the broken window. Losing several things to gain others isn't good if there isn't a net benefit.

 

To begin with, the Anchor wouldn't even be needed if not for the Breach and the numerous Rifts caused by it.

 

As stated in-universe, the Inquisition and the Inquisitor need to become a rallying point precisely because the explosion at the Conclave beheaded the only stable organization left in the South capable of providing an international organized response. They would have been yet another weapon for the Divine instead of the last bullet in the chamber. Not to mention that the explosion pushed Mage-Templar relations and peace talks back to square one, making it easier for Corypheus agents to take advantage of them.

 

However, I can see it having had a good effect on Solas. It forced him to work with others, although the positive may be optional (I mean, a Jerkquisitor isn't the best person to learn from). And being outplayed by a crazy Tevinter Magister probably has been a good reminder that he isn't as clever as he thinks he is (a bit like what happened to Morrigan after what happened at the temple of Mythal).

[Almostfaceman]

It's the parable of the broken window. Losing several things to gain others isn't good if there isn't a net benefit.

 

 

An argument can be made that we wouldn't be debating these events if Solas had let the Evanuris destroy the world long ago. Soooo, the net benefit is that Solas bought living beings more time to work things through. 

[midnight tea]

Oh, yes, I WAS EXTREME, but I wasn't mentioning anyone else being extreme, that's what I meant.

 

Good intentions don't matter in terms of genocide, no.

 

You did say that people were yelling their support and justifying Solas at every step, basically. But let's move on.

 

Actually yes, they do - if it turns out not to just be your regular "muahah genocide" but a way to save lives. You know, like the first 'genocide', that made things bad, but ultimately saved the world from something far worse. At this point we cannot exclude that this is happening or if it's not going to be a better solution for whole of the world in the long run. We simply don't know at this point.

 

We only know that something drastic is about to happen and that the solution Solas currently has is one he himself considers terrible... but what if, say, there was another way? Or it turned out that Solas isn't just 'killing most of population' to save a bunch of ancient elves, but not letting Solas fulfill his duty we effectively let similar number of beings die horribly or perhaps even suffer for eternity? Cole does, after all, mentions that someone is sleeping and *hurting* as they're hiding in the mirror.

 

I'm actually personally rooting for that (well, not necessarily 'that', but a choice of that kind, even if executed differently) not just because for the sake of Solas or me liking of him, but because it would be intriguing thing to see people reel with dramatic choice. I mean, Bioware is no stranger to such things. In fact wasn't there a mission in ME where a huge population was sacrificed to save even bigger population?

 

In any case, I'm so tired I'm falling on my nose. Logging off for the night.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

In any case, I'm so tired I'm falling on my nose. Logging off for the night.

 

Teas are not supposed to be tired, let alone midnight teas.

[Sah291]

Do people who are willing to go to great lengths for a '' greater good '' have a tendency to see themselves as evil or villains, or do they just see themselves as right, blinded by the greater good? I mean, in terms of our world. I'd love examples if you have them, I'm so bad at anything relating to history or studies!

There are always those who question their own actions, sure, but it is often the case that people see themselves as right. And I don't know, sometimes they are. But opposing sides in a conflict rarely see themselves as the bad guys. They see themselves as defending their own cause or people or way of life or whatever the case may be.

I don't really want to bring up any real world figures. But look at the mage/templar conflict. The mages were fighting for liberation from the circle system, and the Templars were fighting to defend institutions and protect people from potentially dangerous magic and demons. They both thought they were right and didn't see themselves as villians.

What is unusual about Solas is that he does see himself as one, but he is going about it anyway. It makes you wonder where that external pressure is coming from where he feels he has no choice.

In DA2, when Anders blew up the Chantry, it was Meredith. Who/what is Solas' Meredith?

[Almostfaceman]

What is unusual about Solas is that he does see himself as one, but he is going about it anyway. It makes you wonder where that external pressure is coming from where he feels he has no choice.

 

I don't think it's that unusual but I come at it from the angle of a military man. 

 

Generals are men who love their troops. They train them, they feed them, they build up their morale. They invest time and money in them.

And they have to be willing to sacrifice them.

 

No general feels like a hero after seeing his troops die, even if the cause is just. Unless the person is a sociopath, they'll feel some responsibility and guilt about the death of their troops. 

 

Generals also have to take into account and plan for civilian casualties. There are always civilian casualties. Take for instance the sacrifice of over 300,000 batarians in the war with the Reapers. Shepard didn't feel like a hero when he had to make the choice about destroying a relay that would blow up and take out an entire batarian colony. 

 

And by "generals" I just mean military leaders, people in the position of making hard choices when it comes to saving lives and fighting for objectives and causes. 

[Witch Cocktor]

There are always those who question their own actions, sure, but it is often the case that people see themselves as right. And I don't know, sometimes they are. But opposing sides in a conflict rarely see themselves as the bad guys. They see themselves as defending their own cause or people or way of life or whatever the case may be.

 

I'm still tackling in the concept of '' more human/realistic. ''

 

When I personally think of '' how can someone do something so evil and destructive '' I can only really come up to one justification, which is '' they think they are in the right for doing those horrible things, and everyone else is wrong. '' That to me, is what is realistic and human, when it comes to doing atrocious things, there's just no other way they could've possible done such horrible things. And I don't mean things like shoplifting or punching someone in a bar (granted, those are awful things as well) but actually something in the level of school shootings and such.

 

But, since Solas UNDERSTANDS that his atrocious actions are awful and bad, and feels allegedly bad about it, it doesn't make him, to me, more realistic or human, or for that matter sympathetic or relate able. 

[Sah291]

@Witch Cocktor

Then I guess we are saying the same thing, because with the exception of sociopaths, it is realistic for people to see themselves as right or justified, and to feel bad when forced to make hard choices, and for others to sympathize with that. That's what I meant about it being more human. That it isn't black and white.

@Almostfaceman,

I think it may have started that way for Solas, maybe in the beginning, but he doesn't act like he necessarily believes in his own justifications anymore. He acts like he wants the Inquisitor to prove him wrong, and seems to welcome the idea of being fought/defeated on some level. Like someone else said about hardened Leliana losing her faith and it just being about tactics at this point.

[Xerrai]

 

My other problem with Solas is that he has been in this world for relatively a short time, but the only solution to this problem that he has come up with is mass destruction and starting over in the rubble. He has lived a very long life, yet he has not spent any real time trying to find a better way. He spoke to the Dalish for a short period of time and gave up because they did not immediately leap to believe his extraordinary claims. I mean, who would unless you show them genuine proof ? I doubt Solas showed them the Eluvians, the sanctuary, etc.

 

Speaking of Elves, Solas has been so dismissive of both City Elves and the Dalish that it is clear they do not mean much to him either. He is not trying to fix his mistake, he is trying to undo his mistake. There is a big difference there. Solas could rally elves across Thedas, Dalish or non-Dalish. In fact that is what happens post-Trespasser. With all his power and wisdom, he and the Elves could carve out a proper country for themselves if they wished via some diplomacy and show of force in Arlathan Forest or in Tirashan or in the Hunterhorn Mountains or even in the Deep Roads in a reclaimed Thaig. Instead, he is going to revive the world of a people that he killed.

 

 

Not going to respond to your entire post, but I do have thoughts on why he's chosing the course of actions he does. Particularly in response to how he could theoretically gain the power and resources to take or rights for the elves.

 

Inquisitor: Are you ever concerned that you've turned your back on your people?

Solas: I have done no such thing. I simply see no way to help the elves, oppressed as they are now.

 

It's not so much he can't, or hasn't conceived of doing anything to help the modern elves, it just that he believes they won't work. This is something that he can tell the Inquisitor about too.

 

Inquisitior: You're a mage!

Solas: And you're the Inquisitor. You could order Halamshiral back to the Dalish if you wish. But ultimately you know it would fail! That even you cannot solve this. Why attack me for knowing that as well!

 

or alternatively

 

Inquisitor: With your power you could do something. I've seen you in battle.

Solas: Who would I attack? A gate guard? What if he felt sorry for the poor knife-ears under his watch? Or the lord who rules the city? Would his death at the hands of an elven apostate lead to the better treatment of elves? There is no simple solution. I think you know that.

 

And remember, this is in a world where elves like Shartan, Garahel, and Inquisitor Ameridian have all done great things and were all but purged by humans in their historic documents. Where all elvhen attempts to reclaim a nation and culture have all ended in failure.

 

As far as he's concerned, no matter what great feats an elf or elves can accomplish, the other races and nations will never see them as anything other than a pair of pointed ears.

[Ellawynn]

I'm still tackling in the concept of '' more human/realistic. ''

 

When I personally think of '' how can someone do something so evil and destructive '' I can only really come up to one justification, which is '' they think they are in the right for doing those horrible things, and everyone else is wrong. '' That to me, is what is realistic and human, when it comes to doing atrocious things, there's just no other way they could've possible done such horrible things. And I don't mean things like shoplifting or punching someone in a bar (granted, those are awful things as well) but actually something in the level of school shootings and such.

 

But, since Solas UNDERSTANDS that his atrocious actions are awful and bad, and feels allegedly bad about it, it doesn't make him, to me, more realistic or human, or for that matter sympathetic or relate able. 

 

You've never done something you didn't want to do, but did it anyway because you thought you had to? You've never had to, say, reject someone who tried their best but just wasn't good enough, or keep someone from something they really wanted because you know it would hurt them or others in the long run?

 

I doubt you've ever had to destroy an entire world because you feel that - for whatever reason - it is your responsibility to ensure the coming of another. But it's the same basic feeling. It's not like Solas just thinks his plan is evil and helps no one but decides to do it anyway. It's that he thinks his plan is evil, but for some reason - whether that be as simple as fixing his mistakes or something as tangible as stopping the Blight from destroying the world permanently - it must be done.

 

So in a way, he does think he's in the right. He believes that the net worth is positive. Why he thinks that, we're not sure. We can make the assumption that he believes it because he's stuck in the past and believes nothing in the modern world could possibly rival his in value. We can make the assumption that he believes it because the modern world is doomed if it continues and killing it a little ahead of schedule means something can be saved. We can make the assumption that he believes it because there's some other world that suffers and will continue to suffer if this one is not destroyed. 

 

But all of those are just assumptions. We can't and won't know his precise reasons for some time, I think. The simple fact of the matter is that Solas simply dislikes the method (destroying the world) that he must take in order to secure this net worth. He believes that to be wrong, but ultimately necessary to achieving whatever he's striving for.

 

I think the ultimate issue here is that we're working from different assumptions - you seem to think Solas can just give up and stop his plans. And hey, maybe he can, I don't have enough information to insist otherwise. But Solas, at least, has ruled that out as option. So, in his mind, doing nothing would be worse than doing whatever he has planned, and fail to secure this net positive.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You've never done something you didn't want to do, but did it anyway because you thought you had to? You've never had to, say, reject someone who tried their best but just wasn't good enough, or keep someone from something they really wanted because you know it would hurt them or others in the long run?

 

I doubt you've ever had to destroy an entire world because you feel that - for whatever reason - it is your responsibility to ensure the coming of another. But it's the same basic feeling.

No, they aren't. Turning someone down or keeping a secret is nothing close to the same basic feeling as committing genocide. 

[Sah291]

Not going to respond to your entire post, but I do have thoughts on why he's chosing the course of actions he does. Particularly in response to how he could theoretically gain the power and resources to take or rights for the elves.
 
Inquisitor: Are you ever concerned that you've turned your back on your people?
Solas: I have done no such thing. I simply see no way to help the elves, oppressed as they are now.
 
It's not so much he can't, or hasn't conceived of doing anything to help the modern elves, it just that he believes they won't work. This is something that he can tell the Inquisitor about too.
 
Inquisitior: You're a mage!
Solas: And you're the Inquisitor. You could order Halamshiral back to the Dalish if you wish. But ultimately you know it would fail! That even you cannot solve this. Why attack me for knowing that as well!
 
or alternatively
 
Inquisitor: With your power you could do something. I've seen you in battle.
Solas: Who would I attack? A gate guard? What if he felt sorry for the poor knife-ears under his watch? Or the lord who rules the city? Would his death at the hands of an elven apostate lead to the better treatment of elves? There is no simple solution. I think you know that.
 
And remember, this is in a world where elves like Shartan, Garahel, and Inquisitor Ameridian have all done great things and were all but purged by humans in their historic documents. Where all elvhen attempts to reclaim a nation and culture have all ended in failure.
 
As far as he's concerned, no matter what great feats an elf or elves can accomplish, the other races and nations will never see them as anything other than a pair of pointed ears.

Doesn't he say something like how he can't change anything, not unless he drops the Veil so he can casually remake the world....lol....

It just sounds like exasperation at that point because the Inquisitor doesn't know he actually has the power to really do that.

More evidence the Inquisitor badgered him into it unknowingly, with their preaching.

[Xerrai]

Doesn't he say something like how he can't change anything, not unless he drops the Veil so he can casually remake the world....lol....

It just sounds like exasperation at that point because the Inquisitor doesn't know he actually has the power to really do that.

More evidence the Inquisitor badgered him into it unknowingly, with their preaching.

That is exactly what he said. lol.

(This may not be exact, but the conversation is basically like this)

 

Inquisitor: The man who wanders the fade has no ideas?

Solas: Not unless we removed the veil so I can casually shape reality, no.

 

I always thought it was ironic that it was a low approval inquisitor who could get Solas to admit his plan.

[Catilina]

I'm still tackling in the concept of '' more human/realistic. ''

 

When I personally think of '' how can someone do something so evil and destructive '' I can only really come up to one justification, which is '' they think they are in the right for doing those horrible things, and everyone else is wrong. '' That to me, is what is realistic and human, when it comes to doing atrocious things, there's just no other way they could've possible done such horrible things. And I don't mean things like shoplifting or punching someone in a bar (granted, those are awful things as well) but actually something in the level of school shootings and such.

 

But, since Solas UNDERSTANDS that his atrocious actions are awful and bad, and feels allegedly bad about it, it doesn't make him, to me, more realistic or human, or for that matter sympathetic or relate able. 

 

Basically, you're right, good and bad concepts, but it is really too black and white.

I'm also inclined to question the "required bloodshed" on behalf of the "greater good", still, we need to see, that there are situations, in which no peaceful solution, or a peaceful solution would take a long time, during that more victims may be formed, than in (for example) a revolution. (Like an acute or indolent forms disease.) Easy to say that there is no "acceptable" victim, when there is a situation in which the victim is inevitable. In this case, you can only minimize the number of casualties.

[Ellawynn]

No, they aren't. Turning someone down or keeping a secret is nothing close to the same basic feeling as committing genocide. 

 

You're focusing on the act, not the actor. Yes, the acts themselves are wildly, incomparably different. But the feeling of doing something you do not want to do, that you may feel guilting for doing, but doing it anyway because you think it has to be done - that's what I'm getting at.

 

Listen, I'm not trying to justify Solas. I'm not trying to say "Well if you ever turned anyone down then you're no different." That'd be incomprehensibly stupid. I'm simply providing an everday example of that paradoxical I-think-this-is-right-but-it-feels-wrong sort of feeling, when you hurt someone you don't really want to hurt, but feel like you have to. I'm surprised that this feeling actually needs to be explained, given how common the trope of the sadistic choice pops up in media. Hell, Dragon Age itself has had a few.

 

Now, if that was an attempt to completely sweep any talk of Solas' psychology off the table so that we can continue to shout about how good or bad his plan is... Well, make arguments about the morality of his plans if you want, but that's not a discussion I'm very interested in having after eighty pages of everyone stubbornly bleating their thoughts at each other.

[Sah291]

That is exactly what he said. lol.
(This may not be exact, but the conversation is basically like this)
 
Inquisitor: The man who wanders the fade has no ideas?
Solas: Not unless we removed the veil so I can casually shape reality, no.
 
I always thought it was ironic that it was a low approval inquisitor who could get Solas to admit his plan.

Haha yeah it is very ironic.

DAI as the Dalish Inquistitor plays out as a cautionary tale of "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it."

Oh you want your gods to come back and save your people? Here you go! Oh except they aren't here to save you. Oops.

[Ellawynn]

 

 

End of rant. Cheers.

 

What! Bayonet, you're anti-Solas! But... but all those times in the Blanket Fort together. I thought you were a brother. I thought you were one of us.

 

*Sob* I can't - I cant even look at you right now.

[Illegitimus]

I'm still tackling in the concept of '' more human/realistic. ''

 

When I personally think of '' how can someone do something so evil and destructive '' I can only really come up to one justification, which is '' they think they are in the right for doing those horrible things, and everyone else is wrong. '' That to me, is what is realistic and human, when it comes to doing atrocious things, there's just no other way they could've possible done such horrible things. And I don't mean things like shoplifting or punching someone in a bar (granted, those are awful things as well) but actually something in the level of school shootings and such.

 

But, since Solas UNDERSTANDS that his atrocious actions are awful and bad, and feels allegedly bad about it, it doesn't make him, to me, more realistic or human, or for that matter sympathetic or relate able. 

 

 

Suppose for the sake of argument that we look at the most destructive thing possible for a human being to do in the real world.  That would be launching the American nuclear arsenal of course.  Suppose you were the American President in the middle of the Cold War.  Hostilities have broken out in Western Europe and NATO forces turned out to be surprisingly ineffective.  They're getting rolled over.  Acting on your advisers' recommendations you have called up your counterpart and threatened to use the nuclear option if he doesn't cease hostilities.   He calls your bluff.  Are you aware that what you are about to do is awful and bad and you're going to do it anyway?  

[Hellion Rex]

Oh, yes, I WAS EXTREME, but I wasn't mentioning anyone else being extreme, that's what I meant.

 

Good intentions don't matter in terms of genocide, no.

This is kinda where I'm coming from, as well. Good intentions are all well and good, but when it comes to something on the scale of genocide, good intentions be damned. 

[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman,

I think it may have started that way for Solas, maybe in the beginning, but he doesn't act like he necessarily believes in his own justifications anymore. He acts like he wants the Inquisitor to prove him wrong, and seems to welcome the idea of being fought/defeated on some level. Like someone else said about hardened Leliana losing her faith and it just being about tactics at this point.

 

That's still consistent with a military leader who's had to endure long war and many casualties. Even the most just cause doesn't look so bright and shiny underneath the blood of war, the waste of war, the chaos of war. Any commander with a conscience will be looking for ways to end the war, end the blood shed. Any commander with a conscience will not see the continuance of war as a joy. 

 

I'll give you one example. It's from a real-life account during World War 2, 101st Airborne conducting operations near the end of the war. 

As it's described, a major was sensing the war was coming to an end. The units under his command were also sensing this. They saw the imminent defeat of Germany. 

An officer higher up assigned the Major to a mission to grab German troops to gather intel. The Major, and his troops, were reluctant. They didn't want any unnecessary casualties that close to the end of the war. But they obeyed orders, went on the mission, were successful, but took some fatal casualties. 

The officer above the Major was so pleased with the success of the mission, he ordered another mission. The Major, not seeing the necessity of the mission versus the casualties of combat, made it look like the mission was enacted and came back without any prisoners. But it was a ruse, the mission was not enacted and no men were, in the eyes of the Major, unnecessarily put at risk so close to the end of the war with Germany. 

 

The Major and his men didn't quit the field of battle. They went on to further engagements as ordered. But they mitigated loss when they could. It's the same with Solas. He doesn't see a way off the battlefield. But he's welcome to ways he can't see to leave that battlefield. Or fight the battle with less loss of life. 

 

And he sees the battle in a way many soldiers can relate with. They get war-weary. Many, while not out-right-suicidal, see death as a release from the stress and bleakness of war. I see that with Solas. 

[German Soldier]

Then I guess we are saying the same thing, because with the exception of sociopaths, it is realistic for people to see themselves as right or justified, and to feel bad when forced to make hard choices, and for others to sympathize with that. That's what I meant about it being more human. That it isn't black and white.
 

You've never done something you didn't want to do, but did it anyway because you thought you had to? You've never had to, say, reject someone who tried their best but just wasn't good enough, or keep someone from something they really wanted because you know it would hurt them or others in the long run?

 

I have never experienced such feelings yet i think of myself as no any less human.

I have never done something i didn't wanted to do.