4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Catilina]

[...]

I have never done something i didn't wanted to do.

 

You are so lucky!

[Ellawynn]

I have never experienced such feelings yet i think of myself as no any less human.

I have never done something i didn't wanted to do.

 

...So you wanted to ditch Hawke/Alistair/Loghain in the Fade then.

 

And sacrifice a Warden or knock up some entirely too enthusiastic witch chick.

 

And destroy a Batarian system or let the Reapers invade the galaxy.

 

"But that's different! I had to do that!" And Solas thinks he has to do this.

 

Either way. *Shrug* Having the feeling or not means nothing about your individual humanity, and at no point did I imply that not feeling this means you're not human. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You're focusing on the act, not the actor. Yes, the acts themselves are wildly, incomparably different. But the feeling of doing something you do not want to do, that you may feel guilting for doing, but doing it anyway because you think it has to be done - that's what I'm getting at.

I know what you are trying to say. You are still wrong. The feeling between your examples and what Solas is doing are nowhere close to the same thing.

[Xerrai]

I know what you are trying to say. You are still completely wrong. The feeling between your examples and what Solas is doing are nowhere close to the same thing. 

Aren't they, though? I mean, I suppose the severity and the weight may be different (they usually are) but the basic premise is the same.

[Ellawynn]

I know what you are trying to say. You are still wrong. The feeling between your examples and what Solas is doing are nowhere close to the same thing.

 

Yes. Also the sky is candy and my computer is in fact a dog.

 

Gee, debates are easy when you just state your opinion like it's fact and provide no argument or evidence to back it up.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Aren't they, though? I mean, I suppose the severity and the weight may be different (they usually are) but the basic premise is the same.

That's an oversimplification of such extremes as to be insulting towards those who have to make choices like the latter where the cost is lives. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes. Also the sky is candy and my computer is in fact a dog.

 

Gee, debates are easy when you just state your opinion like it's fact and provide no argument or evidence to back it up.

You mean like exactly what you were doing? 

[BansheeOwnage]

I kind of headcanon that he had to relearn how to use magic over the past year or so, because the Veil didn't exist in his time. Therefore, he's powerful and skilled at using magic in a general sense, but a bit slower than someone who grew up doing magic under the Veil.  An example of him discussing how to use the Veil to enhance or change spells is in this dialogue with Dorian:

 

• Solas: I notice you used a nullification enchantment combined with an offensive attack.
• Dorian: The nullification disrupts any ambient magic lying about. Things then burn hotter.
• Solas: Don't you then waste an inordinate amount of magic overcoming your own nullification?
• Dorian: Ah, no. I warp the Veil slightly to effect distance between the spells.
• Solas: Of course. Have you considering snapping the Veil-warp to enhance the relative energy?
• Dorian: Like cracking a whip? Yes, tried it once. Made my teeth taste funny.

Not only does Solas seem to learn something new, but extrapolates how to make an additional effect, which Dorian quickly shoots down.

I really wish Quizzy could participate in these discussions (especially if a mage). I couldn't help getting the impression that mine was kinda-sorta-average, not the bottom of her class but nowhere near the top. I mean, she can't even understand Dorian and Solas!

 

Edit: Wow, I'm only on page 77

[Xerrai]

That's an oversimplification of such extremes as to be insulting towards those who have to make choices like the latter. 

Right but we're not talking about that, we were talking about the basic premise behind that. Asking these questions is essential if we want to understand the reasons behind certain phenonena, and human choice is no exception.

 

Sort of like how people talk about the Milgram experiment even though the action of that experiment does not compare to what say, Hitler did when he was around. The basic questions behind the actions are important, and while you may say "well that is over simplistic over the actual situation", that may be true and all, but that does not make it irrelevant. Because in essence, we are not talking about that particular situation (Solas's plan) we are talking about an aspect of the reasoning behind it.

[Ellawynn]

You mean like exactly what you were doing? 

 

*Sigh* Here's an idea - perhaps we can refocus on the discussion, restate our issues with each other's opinions, and maybe try to see where the other is coming from. Hanako - I am sorry if I or any of my comments caused offence. Please, tell me why you think I am wrong, and why I am poorly stating my arguments. I will be happy to try and explain better, but I must ask that you pay me the same respect, and do not just blankly call me completely wrong without really explaining why or how.

[The Elder King]

...So you wanted to ditch Hawke/Alistair/Loghain in the Fade then.

 

And sacrifice a Warden or knock up some entirely too enthusiastic witch chick.

 

And destroy a Batarian system or let the Reapers invade the galaxy.

 

"But that's different! I had to do that!" And Solas thinks he has to do this.

 

Either way. *Shrug* Having the feeling or not means nothing about your individual humanity, and at no point did I imply that not feeling this means you're not human. 

The situations are a bit different. You were forced to leave one of Hawke and WardenX behind. The choice of the Dark Ritual don't really affect anyone else then the Warden. Other then being forced, sacrificing the batarians was necessary to avoid a genocide. Solas things he has to make up for what he did to his people no matter what, even if meant the death of everyone in Thedas. Without judging Solas' decision, his choice right now isn't about sacrificing people for saving other people (the ME choice, the only one involving death of massive scale). One choice (not doing anything) won't lead to further death and suffering. 

[German Soldier]

...So you wanted to ditch Hawke/Alistair/Loghain in the Fade then.

 

And sacrifice a Warden or knock up some entirely too enthusiastic witch chick.

 

And destroy a Batarian system or let the Reapers invade the galaxy.

 

"But that's different! I had to do that!" And Solas thinks he has to do this.

 

Either way. *Shrug* Having the feeling or not means nothing about your individual humanity, and at no point did I imply that not feeling this means you're not human. 

The need to do something that you don't want to do is to me most of the times a form of insecurity and anxiety,when someone has those kind of feelings than it means that this someone is not in harmony and has only doubts upon doubts.

In that state it would be better to return at the base of life and pondering a lot.

 

As for the examples you mentioned i did not had any problems with them since i was utterly convinced of all those choices who were all sacrifices meant to save  lives,nothing that can be compared to Solas.

[Addictress]

*after 50 pages*

 

You: "are you just defending this villain because he's cute?"

 

 

Me: "....."

 

Me: "...."

 

Me: "I have to go."

[Secret Rare]

What! Bayonet, you're anti-Solas! But... but all those times in the Blanket Fort together. I thought you were a brother. I thought you were one of us.

 

*Sob* I can't - I cant even look at you right now.

That's the feeling.

[Addictress]

I JOKE calm down

 

The situations are a bit different. You were forced to leave one of Hawke and WardenX behind. The choice of the Dark Ritual don't really affect anyone else then the Warden. Other then being forced, sacrificing the batarians was necessary to avoid a genocide. Solas things he has to make up for what he did to his people no matter what, even if meant the death of everyone in Thedas. Without judging Solas' decision, his choice right now isn't about sacrificing people for saving other people (the ME choice, the only one involving death of massive scale). One choice (not doing anything) won't lead to further death and suffering. 

 

I think the batarian system VS. reapers invading scenario is comparable. Solas-defenders do think he has some reason to assess the situations as a 3 lives saves vs. 2 lives ordeal. Because the current quantity of lives are so diminished, we can't fathom what it would have been pre-veil.

[The Elder King]

I JOKE calm down

 

 

I think the batarian system VS. reapers invading scenario is comparable. Solas-defenders do think he has some reason to assess the situations as a 3 lives saves vs. 2 lives ordeal. Because the current quantity of lives are so diminished, we can't fathom what it would have been pre-veil.

Shepard was forced to choose between those though. Solas isn't. And his choice to restore his people after what he did is based on something that already happened. Choosing to do nothing right now isn't going to kill more people. He's responsible to what happened to his people, so he's going to try to restore them no matter the cost of lives in current Thedas.

It is, howewer, the most similar compared to the Inquisitor and Warden's choice mentioned. I just don't think it's the exact same situation.

[Sah291]

@Almostfaceman,

OK I see what you are getting at. The war weariness, not seeing a viable way off the battlefield, etc. The way he described his battles as hopeless. So at what point do you make the call that the cost of life is not worth it, or that the war is not winnable? Or that the cause is endless or not just? Assuming Solas is in a position to make such a call. He's been at this a long time, presumably. But he is unwilling or unable to cut his losses and refocus his efforts on the present.

[Ellawynn]

The situations are a bit different. You were forced to leave one of Hawke and WardenX behind. The choice of the Dark Ritual don't really affect anyone else then the Warden. Other then being forced, sacrificing the batarians was necessary to avoid a genocide. Solas things he has to make up for what he did to his people no matter what, even if meant the death of everyone in Thedas. Without judging Solas' decision, his choice right now isn't about sacrificing people for saving other people (the ME choice, the only one involving death of massive scale). One choice (not doing anything) won't lead to further death and suffering. 

 

Just a note here - my opinion on doing the Dark Ritual is that it's short sighted at best. Saying it doesn't really effect anyone is like saying leaving a primed nuclear missile in the hands of this shady mercenary doesn't really effect anyone. Morrigan's a party with unknown intentions and a demonstrated lack of morality. That she ended up coming to regard said primed nuclear missile as her son is a happy accident (And also a really bizarre family situation.)

 

Rest of my answer is below.

 

 

The need to do something that you don't want to do is to me most of the times a form of insecurity and anxiety,when someone has those kind of feelings than it means that this someone is not in harmony and has only doubts upon doubts.

In that state it would be better to return at the base of life and pondering a lot.

 

As for the examples you mentioned i did not had any problems with them since i was utterly convinced of all those choices who were all sacrifices meant to save  lives,nothing that can be compared to Solas.

 

 

And again, this focuses on the act, not the actor. I'm not here to argue the validity of Solas' plan. You probably think he's completely in the wrong, and hey, that's cool. I don't mean to imply that's wrong or invalid or anything at all. I'm inclined to agree, really.

 

But all that matters to the discussion of "How is Solas a more human villain?" is what he's thinking. Whether or not you agree with his reasoning, he has obviously come to the conclusion that his current course of action is best one. He doesn't want to do it, but he believes he must. Just as Shepard likely didn't want to sacrifice the Batarians, but believed they must. Was Shepard more justified than Solas? Given the information we have now, I have to say yes, Shepard probably was. But that's beside the point - the point being, this almost contradictory desire for Solas to do good by doing bad is part of what some find make him human and relatable.

 

That's all I'm doing here - I'm not trying to justify Solas' plan. I'm just trying to explain why some find him sympathetic and human, more so than if he were just some cackling supervillain.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Just a note here - my opinion on doing the Dark Ritual is that it's short sighted at best. Saying it doesn't really effect anyone is like saying leaving a primed nuclear missile in the hands of this shady mercenary doesn't really effect anyone. Morrigan's a party with unknown intentions and a demonstrated lack of morality. That she ended up coming to regard said primed nuclear missile as her son is a happy accident (And also a really bizarre family situation.)

So...it's like exactly what Solas did with giving the Orb to Corypheus? 

[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman,

OK I see what you are getting at. The war weariness, not seeing a viable way off the battlefield, etc. The way he described his battles as hopeless. So at what point do you make the call that the cost of life is not worth it, or that the war is not winnable? Or that the cause is endless or not just? Assuming Solas is in a position to make such a call. He's been at this a long time, presumably. But he is unwilling or unable to cut his losses and refocus his efforts on the present.

 

That's a good question and he hasn't reached that point yet. I'm reluctant to make a judgement because all the facts are not yet in. His plan as-is needs to be stopped but will Bioware throw us a curve ball? Flemeth and Sandal have thrown us strong hints that things are going to change in a big way and I don't see Bioware making that happen without some seriously mind-bending reveals that may make our Solas choices even more interesting/difficult. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

*Sigh* Here's an idea - perhaps we can refocus on the discussion, restate our issues with each other's opinions, and maybe try to see where the other is coming from. Hanako - I am sorry if I or any of my comments caused offence. Please, tell me why you think I am wrong, and why I am poorly stating my arguments. I will be happy to try and explain better, but I must ask that you pay me the same respect, and do not just blankly call me completely wrong without really explaining why or how.

Apology accepted. And likewise I apologize if I came off as disrespectful. That was not the intended tone for my post. 

 

First, please explain why you think you are right. You just stated it was the same basic premise, which is why I just stated it isn't.  

[The Elder King]

Just a note here - my opinion on doing the Dark Ritual is that it's short sighted at best. Saying it doesn't really effect anyone is like saying leaving a primed nuclear missile in the hands of this shady mercenary doesn't really effect anyone. Morrigan's a party with unknown intentions and a demonstrated lack of morality. That she ended up coming to regard said primed nuclear missile as her son is a happy accident (And also a really bizarre family situation.)

 

 

She demonstrated lack of morality, yes. She never demonstrated the intention of desiring to destroy the world, though to be fair we didn't know her full intention. But I never thought she wanted to raise the OGB to conquer or destroy the world. The major threat of the archdemon would be resolved as well, since the child won't be tainted.

But I do agree, yes, the DR is a risk since the Warden doesn't know what can happen. Solas' choice is almost likely going to end up badly, and he straight out tell us that. 

Edit: also, it is kind of risky in the same way as giving the Orb to Corypheus, since he didn't know what Corypheus exactly was. 

[Almostfaceman]

Shepard was forced to choose between those though. Solas isn't. And his choice to restore his people after what he did is based on something that already happened. Choosing to do nothing right now isn't going to kill more people. 

 

Or is it? *cue dramatic music* 

 

We simply don't have all the information yet, in my humble opinion. We have Flemeth and Sandal predicting big changes. We have Titans waking up and causing earth quakes.

 

Can you imagine them Titans getting all fussy and ripping apart continents? That's very messy. 

[Addictress]

Shepard was forced to choose between those though. Solas isn't. And his choice to restore his people after what he did is based on something that already happened. Choosing to do nothing right now isn't going to kill more people. He's responsible to what happened to his people, so he's going to try to restore them no matter the cost of lives in current Thedas.

It is, howewer, the most similar compared to the Inquisitor and Warden's choice mentioned. I just don't think it's the exact same situation.

(1) "Solas isn't"

He is though. There is a moral compulsion to save lives. To do nothing would potentially be immoral.

 

(2) that already happened. Choosing to do nothing right now isn't going to kill more people.

Side by side comparison: reverse a death vs. prevent a death. At the end of the day, aren't both actions saving a life? If reversing death were as possible as preventing one, then wouldn't it weigh on the scale the same?

 

The only ambiguity is whether he is justified in believing he will succeed and the reversal of death with go smoothly.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Shepard was forced to choose between those though. Solas isn't.

Yeah. It wasn't even a choice. Bioware makes Shepard do it either way. The only choice is whether we attempt to warn the Batarians or not.