4635 réponses à ce sujet

[Addictress]

1. Have the power to prevent deaths from happening

 

2. Have the power to reverse deaths that already happened.

 

If you have the power in #2, wouldn't you feel just as guilty not exercising it, as the power in #1?

[The Elder King]

Or is it? *cue dramatic music* 

 

We simply don't have all the information yet, in my humble opinion. We have Flemeth and Sandal predicting big changes. We have Titans waking up and causing earth quakes.

 

Can you imagine them Titans getting all fussy and ripping apart continents? That's very messy. 

I don't understand how Solas' choice of not ripping the Veil off would affect in anyway what will happen with the Titans. Unless ripping the Veil would stop a world-class threat, but in this case Solas could've told us. 

The only way I can imagine so far to stop the Titans with Solas' actions would be that the Evanuris could go against them, but I'm not sure it's an option I'd like (And I doubt Solas will either).

I am open to whatever Bioware might come with, but we are judging Solas' intentions with the info we have so far. And so far there's no hint his plan would have benefits for current Thedas.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Or is it? *cue dramatic music* 

 

We simply don't have all the information yet, in my humble opinion. We have Flemeth and Sandal predicting big changes. We have Titans waking up and causing earth quakes.

 

Can you imagine them Titans getting all fussy and ripping apart continents? That's very messy. 

The Titan waking up only occurred because of the Breach, so if Solas wants to stop them the best course of action is keeping the Veil, not sundering it. 

[Almostfaceman]

 And so far there's no hint his plan would have benefits for current Thedas.

 

We don't? Flemeth warns a human about the upcoming large changes. Sandal does as well. It's not just made to an elf. Why a warning if the warning won't benefit the human? Especially Flemeth, she tells Hawke to be "ready to leap". 

 

I like his joke he can make that that's easy advice for someone who can turn into a dragon. 

[Ellawynn]

So...it's like exactly what Solas did with giving the Orb to Corypheus? 

 

Absolutely. In fact, I was going to point out the similarity to Solas' situation in that post, but decided that making comparisons between the player and Solas would likely turn people off of my point. 

 

*Shrug* Dude ain't perfect. Giving the Orb to Corypheus maybe wasn't a great decision, but at the time I don't think Solas was tremendously concerned over whether or not anyone would get caught in the crossfire, since he expects them all to die anyway (And at that point in time, didn't even respect their personhood.)

 

Apology accepted. And likewise I apologize if I came off as disrespectful. That was not the intended tone for my post. 

 

First, please explain why you think you are right. You just stated it was the same basic premise, which is why I just stated it isn't.  

 

I initially made the comment I did because one poster said that they didn't understand how Solas was more human or relatable than a villain who refuses to acknowledge that they're doing wrong. I said that Solas' awareness of his own evil makes him more interesting because feeling like you must done something you find to be reprehensible is a pretty human and relatable feeling. Solas, in his own words, feels like there is no perfect option, that he has "nothing but terrible choices" to choose from. In order to demonstrate how relatable this feeling can be, I tried to think of everyday examples people might experience. A better example to provide might've been "you have to choose between saving this bus full of children and this other bus also full of children," but I can't imagine many people have found themselves in a situation like that. 

 

Now, this isn't meant to justify what Solas wants to do. We may think his plan is evil and it'd be morally right to stop. Given the evidence and information we have right now, that really is the only ethical conclusion - there doesn't seem to be any adverse consequences to Solas simply giving up, and no theoretical world is worth a very real and present one. To us, Solas' choice is less like choosing between two bus full of children, and more like choosing between blowing up a planet or going for a nice stroll on the beach. 

 

But Solas, for whatever reason, believes it must be done, even though he finds it morally reprehensible to do. Some people - like me - think that makes him more interesting. *Shrug* That's all I'm trying to communicate.

[The Elder King]

(1) "Solas isn't"

He is though. There is a moral compulsion to save lives. To do nothing would potentially be immoral.

 

(2) that already happened. Choosing to do nothing right now isn't going to kill more people.

Side by side comparison: reverse a death vs. prevent a death. At the end of the day, aren't both actions saving a life? If reversing death were as possible as preventing one, then wouldn't it weigh on the scale the same?

 

The only ambiguity is whether he is justified in believing he will succeed and the reversal of death with go smoothly.

 

 

1. Have the power to prevent deaths from happening

 

2. Have the power to reverse deaths that already happened.

 

If you have the power in #2, wouldn't you feel just as guilty not exercising it, as the power in #1?

 

The problem is that by doing something a lot of people would die. And they are already death. I do understand feeling guilty by the fact that you can do something, but they're still dead. As a rule I prioritize the living over the dead.

Beside, his guilt isn't based on not trying to save them. It's based on the fact that he's the responsible of their fall.

[Almostfaceman]

The Titan waking up only occurred because of the Breach, so if Solas wants to stop them the best course of action is keeping the Veil, not sundering it. 

 

Yeah, we don't know that for sure. There's an awakened dwarf running around doing... what? Helping the Titans come out of their snooze-fest? 

[The Elder King]

We don't? Flemeth warns a human about the upcoming large changes. Sandal does as well. It's not just made to an elf. Why no warning if the warning won't benefit the human? Especially Flemeth, she tells Hawke to be "ready to leap". 

 

I like his joke he can make that that's easy advice for someone who can turn into a dragon. 

You do realize the big change Flemeth told Hawke could be the plot of DAI?

Beside, I still don't understand how those changes are supposed to be beneficial. Again, Flemeth and Sandal's words are vague, and can mean anything that already happened, or not necessarily something good for the people in thedas. So far the only think we know about a supposed 'change' is Solas' plan to rip off the Veil, and the well likely possibility that his plan would lead to the death of said people.

[Hellion Rex]

We don't? Flemeth warns a human about the upcoming large changes. Sandal does as well. It's not just made to an elf. Why no warning if the warning won't benefit the human? Especially Flemeth, she tells Hawke to be "ready to leap". 

 

I like his joke he can make that that's easy advice for someone who can turn into a dragon. 

Flemeth's warning could just as easily have  been to warn Hawke of upcoming dangers. "Ready to leap" can be interpreted in a variety of ways as well.

 

As much as I plan to whack Solas if he tries to break the Veil, I am kind of curious how destroying it will affect mages, specifically human ones, in regards to both the Imperium as well as the fact that my main characters are always male human mages. 

 

If nothing else, I imagine that mixing Fade and reality will exponentially increase the powers available to all magi, as well as increase the risks. Heck, to be honest, I could see "the raw chaos" that Solas referring to be magical mayhem as people across the world suddenly have access to extreme amounts of magic. 

Or even further, destroying Veil might grant power to the magickless in Thedas, resulting in a whole other host of issues as well.

[Hellion Rex]

Yeah, we don't know that for sure. There's an awakened dwarf running around doing... what? Helping the Titans come out of their snooze-fest? 

I think we may have found a major ally for kicking the poo out of Solas. 

 

I mean, if lyrium has the power to reinforce reality when used through people, perhaps Titans used to be so dangerous because they had the ability to cancel, negate, and suppress the magic of the Evanuris. As such, a Titan could possibly be a great boon to us.

 

I would be curious to know if the Titans want to the destruction of the ancient elves for hunting and mining them for lyrium and the elusive "something else".

[The Elder King]

I think we may have found a major ally for kicking the poo out of Solas. 

 

I mean, if lyrium has the power to reinforce reality when used through people, perhaps Titans used to be so dangerous because they had the ability to cancel, negate, and suppress the magic of the Evanuris. As such, a Titan could possibly be a great boon to us.

Didn't the Evanuris beat them, though?

[Almostfaceman]

You do realize the big change Flemeth told Hawke could be the plot of DAI?

Beside, I still don't understand how those changes are supposed to be beneficial. Again, Flemeth and Sandal's words are vague, and can mean anything that already happened, or not necessarily something good for the people in thedas. So far the only think we know about a supposed 'change' is Solas' plan to rip off the Veil, and the well likely possibility that his plan would lead to the death of said people.

 

Well that's why I used the word "hint" and not "rock-solid-evidence.". 

 

[The Elder King]

Well that's why I used the word "hint" and not "rock-solid-evidence.". 

 

Well, as I said, I am open to see how this plot goes. I'm just saying that from what we know so far it's more likely that Solas' plan will hurt people in Thedas then help them, that's all. 

[Hellion Rex]

Didn't the Evanuris beat them, though?

Not all of them, as that one under Ferelden would suggest.

 

Also, there's that one codex suggesting that the mining was stopped for a reason. I'd posit that the mining of the Titan could have been a sort of vivisection in which Titan blood (lyrium) was siphoned away, drained from the body. Thus, the Titans that were mined were diminished, not dead.

 

I'd wager there are a couple more Titans hidden beneath. I still wanna know what "The Stone lies beneath Orlais" means. Another Titan, perhaps?

[Almostfaceman]

Well, as I said, I am open to see how this plot goes. I'm just saying that from what we know so far it's more likely that Solas' plan will hurt people in Thedas then help them, that's all. 

 

Pretty much agreed, though it's cool you're open to the prospects of a more interesting development in the plot. 

[The Elder King]

Not all of them, as that one under Ferelden would suggest.

 

Also, there's that one codex suggesting that the mining was stopped for a reason. I'd posit that the mining of the Titan could have been a sort of vivisection in which Titan blood (lyrium) was siphoned away, drained from the body. Thus, the Titans that were mined were diminished, not dead.

 

I'd wager there are a couple more Titans hidden beneath. I still wanna know what "The Stone lies beneath Orlais" means. Another Titan, perhaps?

I think there might be more as well.

It doesn't matter in the end what exactly happened between the Evanuris and the Titans for what you suggested though. Solas isn't (probably) strong as all the Evanuris grouped together, so a Titan might be a formidable opponent.

[Hellion Rex]

Ugh, so many forces and entities to theorize about, and only now are we learning which ones are still in play.

[The Elder King]

Pretty much agreed, though it's cool you're open to the prospects of a more interesting development in the plot. 

Thanks .

[The Elder King]

Ugh, so many forces and entities to theorize about, and only now are we learning which ones are still in play.

Indeed. I hope they'll make some other big reveals in the next game, as well as explaining more of the elven lore pre-Veil (which is likely if they'll focus on Solas).

[Ellawynn]

Listen, just as a general statement - I really don't think Solas is acting without due and logical cause. I don't think he popped up from his nap and just decided, man, today's a nice day to destroy a few worlds, and I don't think that everything would be fine and dandy if he simply gave up. I'd argue that point more with people who think otherwise, but we have no hard evidence on that matter. Any argument I could draft up would essentially be a character witness testimony, and believing it would come down to whether or not you believe Solas is an essentially good person. Obviously some people think he isn't, and that's cool. They're entitled to that opinion, as I'm entitled to mine.

 

However, I urge everyone on every side of the debate to consider the general lack of information on Solas' plan motivations. We truly know nothing about them except that he plans to tear down the Veil, and that's probably not good for the current world. 

 

If you're judging Solas - either positively or negatively - based on actions he's already taken, fair enough. But making judgement on what he intends to do (Again, regardless of whether or not they are positive or negative) seems a bit like jumping the gun to me.

 

I dunno. Just my two cents.

[The Elder King]

Listen, just as a general statement - I really don't think Solas is acting without due and logical cause. I don't think he popped up from his nap and just decided, man, today's a nice day to destroy a few worlds, and I don't think that everything would be fine and dandy if he simply gave up. I'd argue that point more with people who think otherwise, but we have no hard evidence on that matter. Any argument I could draft up would essentially be a character witness testimony, and believing it would come down to whether or not you believe Solas is an essentially good person. Obviously some people think he isn't, and that's cool. They're entitled to that opinion, as I'm entitled to mine.

 

However, I urge everyone on every side of the debate to consider the general lack of information on Solas' plan motivations. We truly know nothing about them except that he plans to tear down the Veil, and that's probably not good for the current world. 

 

If you're judging Solas - either positively or negatively - based on actions he's already taken, fair enough. But making judgement on what he intends to do (Again, regardless of whether or not they are positive or negative) seems a bit like jumping the gun to me.

 

I dunno. Just my two cents.

It is a fair approach, and I did say before in this thread that his plan is vague. I'll wait and see how they'll write him in DA4.

Though he admits himself his plan might end up with the death of lots/all people in current Thedas, so I don't think it's wrong that people assume his plan might have seriously negative effects.

[Sah291]

You do realize the big change Flemeth told Hawke could be the plot of DAI?
Beside, I still don't understand how those changes are supposed to be beneficial. Again, Flemeth and Sandal's words are vague, and can mean anything that already happened, or not necessarily something good for the people in thedas. So far the only think we know about a supposed 'change' is Solas' plan to rip off the Veil, and the well likely possibility that his plan would lead to the death of said people.

Flemeth was talking about Hawke's own fate in that scene, I think. She tells him/her to wait for that moment and to not be afraid to leap. In other words, to face their fears and take a leap (of faith).

But like with many Flemeth convos, it has a double meaning. She says the people fear the inevitable plunge into the abyss. It's a metaphor generally for people's fear of the unknown.

In Here Lies The Abyss, we encounter the Nightmare demon, who seems to know everyone's greatest fear.

[The Elder King]

Flemeth was talking about Hawke's own fate in that scene, I think. She tells him/her to wait for that moment and to not be afraid to leap. In other words, to face their fears and take a leap (of faith).

But like with many Flemeth convos, it has a double meaning. She says the people fear the inevitable plunge into the abyss. It's a metaphor generally for people's fear of the unknown.

In Here Lies The Abyss, we encounter the Nightmare demon, who seems to know everyone's greatest fear.

It'd still mean her words were about something already happening in the series, which was my point. Anyway, I didn't mean her words were necessarily about DAI. I mean they weren't necessarily about something that still has to happen.

[Sah291]

It'd still mean her words were about something already happening in the series, which was my point. Anyway, I didn't mean her words were necessarily about DAI. I mean they weren't necessarily about something that still has to happen.

Well Flemeth likes to nudge change along, so it could be any of those. She could have been referring to the mage/templar war (since this was said in DA2 and in context to Hawke), or the events of DAI, or something still to come. Or to a coming new age in general, since we now know this is what she was preparing Morrigan for.

[Addictress]

The problem is that by doing something a lot of people would die. And they are already death. I do understand feeling guilty by the fact that you can do something, but they're still dead. As a rule I prioritize the living over the dead.

Beside, his guilt isn't based on not trying to save them. It's based on the fact that he's the responsible of their fall.

But the reason we prioritize the living over the dead is because in our world, the dead can't be helped. But if you're a god with magical powers and can reverse death just as easily, wouldn't your priorities change? The dead would practically be equal to the living. And not only the dead, but future generations, too. Future generations not yet born. We try to get our society now to think about weighing future generations not yet born with people still alive today when we talk about environmental issues.

 

He feels responsible for the fall, but if that was his only feeling, he would just kill himself. The fact he is taking an action is because he is reversing a mistake - he is reversing deaths or ensuring the lives of future generations.