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[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman:  But... in his zeal he failed - utterly.  

 

The world still exists and there's something left to restore. 

 

So no. Not utterly. 

 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Almostfaceman:  He destroyed the world accidentally... and now he's destroying the world purposefully.  And yes, of course he only means "civilization" - not the ecosystem. 

 

"Metaphore" world destruction is headcanon only at this point.

 

If Solas "means what he says" about the past... but is "being metaphorical" about the future... that's just someone trying to shoehorn him into a character they want him to be. 

 

And please... don't equate him to Winston Churchill... the only person who thinks what he's doing is "necessary" is Solas. 

 

NOTE:  You know he only cares about "the world of the elves" and he destroyed it... utterly.  Both on Thedas and in the "pseudo-Fade". 

 

So much so - he doesn't even see the modern elves as people. 

[Almostfaceman]

And please... don't equate him to Winston Churchill... the only person who thinks what he's doing is "necessary" is Solas. 

 

It's just a spirit of optimism. Not a direct comparison with Churchill. 

 

It's the same thing as 

 

 

That little train gets over obstacles by never giving up. 

 

Go little Solas!

[Medhia_Nox]

@Almostfaceman:  I know I'm a humorless curmudgeon... but I cannot understand, if serious, how anyone can cheer on what Solas intends to do.  

[midnight tea]

@Almostfaceman:  But... in his zeal he failed - utterly.  

 

So, clearly his methods were grossly flawed.  

 

And yet, he wants to repeat them.

 

Well no, that's not what he said. He said that some choices are terrible, but the only option that remain, or that every other alternative was worse. Which, you know, sometimes is simply true. Sometimes there are no perfect solutions... heck, sometimes there are no solutions that aren't horrible or "grossly flawed", but are only solutions available.

 

And it's not exactly fair to try and to pin the entire blame on someone who - when put in such situation - had to make such choices. 

[IllustriousT]

@Almostfaceman:  I know I'm a humorless curmudgeon... but I cannot understand, if serious, how anyone can cheer on what Solas intends to do.  

 

Schadenfreude.

[midnight tea]

@Almostfaceman:  He destroyed the world accidentally... and now he's destroying the world purposefully.  And yes, of course he only means "civilization" - not the ecosystem. 

 

"Metaphore" world destruction is headcanon only at this point.

 

If Solas "means what he says" about the past... but is "being metaphorical" about the future... that's just someone trying to shoehorn him into a character they want him to be. 

 

Hang on. The first world destruction was also a metaphor. The civilization fell and the world was changed - but not destroyed utterly or anything of the sort.

 

... so who's trying to shoehorn things here?

[midnight tea]

 

And please... don't equate him to Winston Churchill... the only person who thinks what he's doing is "necessary" is Solas. 

 

Oh, the same Churchil who said this "Poor Neville Chamberlain believed he could trust Hitler. He was wrong. But I don't think I am wrong about Stalin."???

[Almostfaceman]

@Almostfaceman:  I know I'm a humorless curmudgeon... but I cannot understand, if serious, how anyone can cheer on what Solas intends to do.  

 

I'm not cheering him on. I'm explaining that he's not one to give up even if things didn't turn out the way he wanted them to. That's just an observation of his character. 

 

It's also something people can relate to, we all fail... sometimes spectacularly... and it's generally considered a strength to not give up. 

 

I want him to succeed in restoring his people, just not at the expense of killing so many others. 

 

Why would you think I'm cheering him on? I cannot understand this, given what I've said repeatedly in this thread. 

[dawnstone]

Churchill was an absolute ****, and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Solas at least has the benefit of being fictional.

[midnight tea]

I'm not cheering him on. I'm explaining that he's not one to give up even if things didn't turn out the way he wanted them to. That's just an observation of his character. 

 

It's also something people can relate to, we all fail... sometimes spectacularly... and it's generally considered a strength to not give up. 

 

I want him to succeed in restoring his people, just not at the expense of killing so many others. 

 

Why would you think I'm cheering him on? I cannot understand this, given what I've said repeatedly in this thread. 

 

Yeah, it goes without saying that you probably won't find many people who "cheer" on what Solas intends to do, at least in shape he intends to do now (since we don't know the details of his plans). This has been stated so many times in the thread I'm surprised there are still people - who are not newcomers to the thread - who miss this.

[lynroy]

The only thing Solas gives up is Lavellan. Ooooh snap.

Sorry, I had to.

[IllustriousT]

The only thing Solas gives up is Lavellan. Ooooh snap.

Sorry, I had to.

 

"and so he did."

[Medhia_Nox]

 

It's just a spirit of optimism. Not a direct comparison with Churchill. 

 

It's the same thing as 

 

 

That little train gets over obstacles by never giving up. 

 

Go little Solas!

 

Is this not a cheer?  

I already said I recognize I'm probably taking you seriously when you're kidding... and yet, you do advocate for Solas.  

 

Concerning metaphors:  it's not a metaphor, because - like humans do - he equates the elves to "the world" - and yes, he destroyed the elven civilization.

 

When people talk about destroying the world... they don't mean "the planet" - they mean "the people".  It's not a metaphor because the meaning of "the world" is simply altered... they're not saying "the planet will be destroyed down to the last living thing" but actually mean "civilization will collapse".  

[Sah291]

Hang on. The first world destruction was also a metaphor. The civilization fell and the world was changed - but not destroyed utterly or anything of the sort.
 
... so who's trying to shoehorn things here?

Very true. He didn't actually destroy the world at all, nor kill his people. An empire fell. The elves changed. He doesn't like the way they have changed and thinks they lost too much. But that's different.

Why people think that an empire falling is the equivalent to the end of the world, I don't know. It's happened lots of times in history. Cultural knowledge and progress hasn't stopped, and it really didn't stop even during the dark ages either.

Is the Library supposed to be a metaphor for the Library of Alexandria?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Sah291:  Again... the elves "way of life" was changed - their "world" was destroyed. 

 

There have been civilizations that were annihilated in our real world... should we just tell the survivors:  "Well, chin up, it's not like you're ALL dead."  

[midnight tea]

Is this not a cheer?  

I already said I recognize I'm probably taking you seriously when you're kidding... and yet, you do advocate for Solas.  

 

Concerning metaphors:  it's not a metaphor, because - like humans do - he equates the elves to "the world" - and yes, he destroyed the elven civilization.

 

When people talk about destroying the world... they don't mean "the planet" - they mean "the people".  It's not a metaphor because the meaning of "the world" is simply altered... they're not saying "the planet will be destroyed down to the last living thing" but actually mean "civilization will collapse".  

 

So basically you're saying a thing that 'isn't a metaphor'... is a metaphor.

[Almostfaceman]

The only thing Solas gives up is Lavellan. Ooooh snap.

Sorry, I had to.

 

I wonder if he gave anything up from ancient elven times? Like money. Power. Da women. Followers. A kingdom. Crossroads Season 1,467,327 passes. Friends. Family. Game of Elven Thrones series finales. 

[Almostfaceman]

Is this not a cheer?  

I already said I recognize I'm probably taking you seriously when you're kidding... and yet, you do advocate for Solas.  

 

Concerning metaphors:  it's not a metaphor, because - like humans do - he equates the elves to "the world" - and yes, he destroyed the elven civilization.

 

When people talk about destroying the world... they don't mean "the planet" - they mean "the people".  It's not a metaphor because the meaning of "the world" is simply altered... they're not saying "the planet will be destroyed down to the last living thing" but actually mean "civilization will collapse".  

 

I didn't argue with you about metaphors. 

 

I advocate for Solas as long as it doesn't involve killing everyone he thinks he needs to kill, yes. 

[Medhia_Nox]

So basically you're saying a metaphor... is a metaphor.

 

Different definitions for the same word is not a metaphor.  

 

"her heart burst from the pain" is a metaphor. 

 

Solas does not mean "the planet" he means "the civilization".  

 

Are you not aware that one of the definitions of the word "world" is "human society"? 

[lynroy]

I wonder if he gave anything up from ancient elven times? Like money. Power. Da women. Followers. A kingdom. Crossroads Season 1,467,327 passes. Friends. Family. Game of Elven Thrones series finales. 

Lost it at the season passes.

[Baboontje]

 

The world still exists and there's something left to restore. 

 

So no. Not utterly. 

 

 

This almost made me fall off of my chair.

[midnight tea]

Very true. He didn't actually destroy the world at all, nor kill his people. An empire fell. The elves changed. He doesn't like the way they have changed and thinks they lost too much. But that's different.

Why people think that an empire falling is the equivalent to the end of the world, I don't know. It's happened lots of times in history. Cultural knowledge and progress hasn't stopped, and it really didn't stop even during the dark ages either.

Is the Library supposed to be a metaphor for the Library of Alexandria?

 

Yep, this is one of reasons why I don't really take things he says literally (neither do I Flemeth's and her "reckoning that will shake the very heavens").

 

I mean, he himself has limited the previous "destruction of the world (of elves)" and what he meant was the drastic change it went through. I at least assume that there were casualties in the way (like some elves trapped in Vir Dirthara), but obviously we're not talking about utter destruction.

 

And then there are statements like this: "The Veil took everything from the elves... even themselves."

 

Solas talks in categories that seem to touch more matters of a mind (which in Thedas is a somewhat separate thing from physical body), or perhaps even culture, rather than physicality and ultimately people 'dying', or 'ending' can mean many things, including a drastic change in perception ("when he rises everyone will see! ... See what? The truth? The metaphor for 'seeing' is usually learning the truth or something that was hidden from us before).

 

Whether it's the truth we don't know, but I certainly wouldn't exclude the possibility now.

[Almostfaceman]

Is this not a cheer?  

 

I admire a can-do spirit. But I'm not cheering on millions of people dying in Thedas. Is that what you meant by I was cheering on Solas? Because you didn't mention that I had mentioned that I'll stop him if he tries to kill millions of people in Thedas. 

 

You seem to forget I say that. 

 

So yeah, I was cheering on his can-do spirit. It's what made him free slaves and save the world thousands of years ago. 

 

I also generally admire it in people. The can-do spirit. As long as the person isn't trying to murder people. 

[Sah291]

@Sah291:  Again... the elves "way of life" was changed - their "world" was destroyed. 
 
There have been civilizations that were annihilated in our real world... should we just tell the survivors:  "Well, chin up, it's not like you're ALL dead."

Civilization =/= empire.

And yes, the idea of an unchanging and fixed civilization and way of life, comes at a cost to keep it that way, usually.

The ancient elves weren't conquered, their empire fell due to internal conflicts, civil war, etc. I think that's what Mythal means when she says what happened could not be changed. Remember what she tells Hawke in the beginning of DA2. Some things can't be saved, or are beyond fixing, and when that happens, sometimes it is best to let it pass so something new can be built. Peace can't be built on a strained foundation.