241 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

And yet in the very beginning of the Mage Origin... what do you see the mages doing in the library? 

That's not a cotton ball that mage is throwing at the apprentice to block.

 

They are learning to fight... in the open... while the templars just go about their day. 

 

The oppression theory is a lie.  It's the only reason the mages even got out the front doors.

 

Its not the same. Not really. I'll clarify.

This they permit, because conventional magic, the Templars know how to deal with it by nullifying. They're trained to get in close and nullify and use their military training to kill something to death, something circle mages are supposed to be lacking in. The last thing they want is a mage who's trained with the skill and mentality to engage them in close/melee combat and kill them. Summoning and throwing a fireball is one thing. To really hurt and kill someone with it is another. 

Yes my argument is still shaky but its all I got.

Modifié par Vit246, 01 avril 2016 - 05:43 .

[Pavan]

Its not the same. Not really. I'll clarify.

This they permit, because conventional magic, the Templars know how to deal with it by nullifying. They're trained to get in close and nullify and use their close combat skills, something circle mages are supposed to be lacking in. The last thing they need is a mage who's trained with the skill and mentality to engage them in close/melee combat and kill them.

Yes my argument is still shaky but its all I got.

 

 

Not just that, but in times of war or blights - some mages are expected to join the army for the duration of the war/blight. So they would need at least a fraction of their mages to be combat trained, remeber Ostagar.

 

Either way, I love melee combat over ranged in every game ever lol ------- even now that i am doing a mage playthrough, I will spec as a knight enchanter so I can still fight up front like the warriors.

 

 

...Theres a thought - would Knight Enchaters/Arcane Warriors be able to cross blades with a templar - or would thier magic be nulified to such an extent that their spirit sword would dissappear? In which case they would have to resort to long range tactics again?

 

- Or would you say its the "Battle of Wills" theory again, e.g. some templars are less adept at it than others and so could be overpowered?

[Master Warder Z_]

...Theres a thought - would Knight Enchaters be able to cross blades with a templar - or would thier magic be nulified to such an extent that their sword would dissappear? 

 

Why would a robe go up against a dedicated melee specialist?

 

I mean that's like me, Infantry(with only minimal bladed and hand to hand combat training) trying to fight a crusader in a duel, I might get lucky and win, but erm I don't live and breath bladed weapons. So I'd rate my odds as pretty dang low.

[The Ascendant]

I have to admit that putting mages in robes and then sending them onto a battlefield is pretty damn stupid. One stray arrow? A dagger in the back? Sword to the chest? Unless they have a barrier up then they are out. Giving them light armor is both practical and feasible. 

[Pavan]

Why would a robe go up against a dedicated melee specialist?

 

I mean that's like me, Infantry(with only minimal bladed and hand to hand combat training) trying to fight a crusader in a duel, I might get lucky and win, but erm I don't live and breath bladed weapons. So I'd rate my odds as pretty dang low.

 

 

I think you are forgetting the fact that Knight Enchanter is a rank - Their job is to lead melee troops into battle from the front.

Its prety obvious they don't just conjure up a spirit sword and start fighting for the first time.

They are taught how to wield a sword.

They have barriers

They can use frost step to zip across the battlefield quickly

They can use fade step to make an atack pass through them

They can slow down time in a small area around them.

 

This gives them a pretty good chance imo.

 

And that doesn't include any of their regular mage spells.

[Master Warder Z_]

I have to admit that putting mages in robes and then sending them onto a battlefield is pretty damn stupid. One stray arrow? A dagger in the back? Sword to the chest? Unless they have a barrier up then they are out. Giving them light armor is both practical and feasible.

And utterly worthless when it comes to stopping any of those three things listed. Maybe a non barbed arrow but those aren't exactly rare.

[Pavan]

I have to admit that putting mages in robes and then sending them onto a battlefield is pretty damn stupid. One stray arrow? A dagger in the back? Sword to the chest? Unless they have a barrier up then they are out. Giving them light armor is both practical and feasible. 

 

 

KE almost always have a barrier up, the generate them every time they attack.

 

Also im pretty sure virtually all tier 3 and up mage armors have metal bracers, greaves and chest pieces

[The Ascendant]

And utterly worthless when it comes to stopping any of those three things listed. Maybe a non barbed arrow but those aren't exactly rare.

Hardened good quality leather armor can be the difference between an injury and certain death in certain cases. You are still a glass cannon certainly, but at least in light armor you can maneuver easier than in robes, and can blend in if your staff is not blatantly obvious. I remember that Felassan could shrink his to a walking stick or a cane. A handy trick to have.

[Master Warder Z_]

I think you are forgetting the fact that Knight Enchanter is a rank

No.

I'm just saying I give the edge to folks who train for years solely with a sword to get their job over people who trained for years with a sword to get their position.

Templars have to grow the physical training to begin with, by the time they take vows their at least capable of holding their own, this is no experience, add in that and only becomes a more potent combination.

Knight Enchanters are mages pegged for a rare order who train for that express purpose, Templars train from adolescence to adulthood to preform their duties.

I think the warrior outstrips mage when it comes to their own method of combat.

[The Ascendant]

KE almost always have a barrier up, the generate them every time they attack.

 

Also im pretty sure virtually all tier 3 and up mage armors have metal bracers, greaves and chest pieces

True, but they are still classified as a light armor despite having metallic pieces. The elven sentinels wore light armor that appeared metallic but was still seen as light armor. 

[Pavan]

No.

I'm just saying I give the edge to folks who train for years solely with a sword to get their job over people who trained for years with a sword to get their position.

Templars have to grow the physical training to begin with, by the time they take vows their at least capable of holding their own, this is no experience, add in that and only becomes a more potent combination.

Knight Enchanters are mages pegged for a rare order who train for that express purpose, Templars train from adolescence to adulthood to preform their duties.

I think the warrior outstrips mage when it comes to their own method of combat.

 

 

 

And you just ignored the rest of that post.

 

Im not saying in a straight up sword fight a KE would win against a Templar, that is stupid. Templar would win everytime.

 

But read the rest of the post, take that into account and then respond.

When a KE fights he isn't just using his spirit sword.

[Master Warder Z_]

And you just ignored the rest of that post.

 

No I read it, I just find its ultimately irrelevant, armor, magic, training, discipline, these are things a Templar has and can do better or can counter, ultimately your entire argument seems to revolve around them being a mage to defeat them, not a melee specialist.

 

That's the entire point, hence why I said at the beginning the entire assertion is pretty dumb, there is no melee focused mage class that is in the same tier as any dedicated melee warrior class, they simply have other focuses. Ultimately rendering the entire argument moot, because a mage cannot out warrior a warrior. 

[Illegitimus]

See Litany of Adralla, a common Templar mantra that apparently despite its lengthy nature can be recited mid battle speedily enough if the Lord Seeker is anything to go by. Its handy effects? Well besides breaking mental domination, it also causes any active blood magic casting to be nullified.

 

 

No it doesn't.  Doesn't do didley against having your blood boiled.  

[Master Warder Z_]

No it doesn't.  Doesn't do didley against having your blood boiled.  

 

I don't recall it being attempted to stop such, but it will mitigate and negate blood magic, it removed Cole's invisibility and made him tangible because Lambert beat the crap out of him after reciting it.

[The Ascendant]

Hey guys remember when we closed the Breach the first time? Mages and Templars were equally effective in helping us. It took the same amount of either group who used their powers to either enhance the Anchor or weaken the Breach. Their respective abilities are formidable. Ultimately I would have to admit that the Templars would've won the war eventually, but they would've lost the peace if Corypheus/Fen'Harel were not factors. No one would trust them again and without mages, southern Thedas would've been easy pickings for Tevinter or even worse, the Qunari.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tevinter is in no position to attack Southern Thedas and even the Qunari would eventually have been driven back by attrition. That said, although they probably would have won in the end, if the Mage-Templar war was that one sided, it's unlikely there would have ever even been a conclave. The templars would have had no need to agree to negotiate for peace if they had already all but crushed the mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

Tevinter is in no position to attack Southern Thedas and even the Qunari would eventually have been driven back by attrition. That said, although they probably would have won in the end, if the Mage-Templar war was that one sided, it's unlikely there would have ever even been a conclave. The templars would have had no need to agree to negotiate for peace if they had already all but crushed the mages.

Except Fereldan interposed itself? Regardless of how strong the Templars are they can't match a national military, even one as pathetic as Fereldan's and keep their crusade going, hence the stalemate. No reliance on Mage but on that if a country that took them in.

[Dean_the_Young]

Tevinter is in no position to attack Southern Thedas and even the Qunari would eventually have been driven back by attrition. That said, although they probably would have won in the end, if the Mage-Templar war was that one sided, it's unlikely there would have ever even been a conclave. The templars would have had no need to agree to negotiate for peace if they had already all but crushed the mages.

 

Given Fiona and the mages context, the Conclave was because the Templars had all but crushed the mages. The caveat for the 'but' was the mages holed up in Redcliffe- ergo, under the protection, and authority, and influence of a chantry-aligned Kingdom. The Templars wouldn't attack (lest they pick a fight they could not win), but the Mages couldn't continue either.

 

Politically the Conclave was up in the air, but functionally it was a negotiation of the mage surrender. That's not as bad as it sounds politically- the mages had a good political hand and the Templars some significant restrictions to get a victory- but the war was pretty much over by that point, since there were only four broad strokes of what could happen.

 

The Templars alienate Ferelden by attacking the last mage bastion- probably leads to the Templars being destroyed. The short term victory over the mage rebellion ends with political failure because the Templars won't be in a place to re-instate the Circles and run them going forward. A Templar attack is a fight they can't win (against Ferelden) and a lack of political involvement going forward (restoring the Circles).

 

The Mages can't alienate Ferelden too much because doing so would see them kicked out of Redcliffe. That either leaves them with no other defense against the Templars waiting outside the gates- the whole reason they needed refuge in the first place- and thus total defeat. Having alienated their patrons, and with no other survivors to guide the circles, the Templars lack a real opponent to restoring the Circles.

 

The Mages and Templars can come to a peace treaty at the Conclave. Specifics would depend on context and deals, but outlines would almost certainly include a re-establishment of the Circles, some face-saving reforms and limited immunity for rebel mages, and likely changes to Chantry heirarchy in favor of the Templars (such as the replacement of the Divine in favor of someone the Templars and Seekers would respect and follow).

 

Or the Mages and Templars can NOT come to a deal... and end up in a status quo in which they wait on opposite sides of the wall until someone ticks off the major players enough, or the status quo becomes a de facto deal in and of itself. Redcliffe becomes a de facto mage circle/college, but mages can't leave. Mages have freedom from the Templars, but can't oppose the Crown's authority. Either it works- becoming a status quo- or it doesn't, and either Templars or Mages get Ferelden firmly on their side.

 

No matter what, the mage rebellion's ability to continue on its own power is over. It's dependent on the favor of Ferelden.

[Colonelkillabee]

Well, in that case, it's mages with no combat training and heavily outnumbered. Also, Hawke's only killed one magister.

The majority of mages have had no combat training, that's not the Templar's fault. "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin."

 

In other words, don't start a war you can't finish, then make excuses and moan about it when you lose.

 

And whether it's one or 10, it's pretty obvi that Hawke can take practically any magister, he did after all beat Corypheus, even if he didn't truly die. And since Cornflakes is technically a magister, that makes two. The other being Fenris' master.

 

edit: And the tevinter have combat training, still got wrecked by templars.

[Xilizhra]

The majority of mages have had no combat training, that's not the Templar's fault. "Don't start nothin, won't be nothin."

 

In other words, don't start a war you can't finish, then make excuses and moan about it when you lose.

I'm not sure what relevance that has here, seeing as how Kirkwall's Circle didn't start a war.

 

 

edit: And the tevinter have combat training, still got wrecked by templars.

Which I covered already.

[Colonelkillabee]

I'm not sure what relevance that has here, seeing as how Kirkwall's Circle didn't start a war.



Which I covered already.

Not really, your excuses didn't cover it.

And I wasn't talking specifically about Kirkwall, now was I? "Majority of mages" includes Fiona and her followers. Not to mention my original point was about mages in general and their combat effectiveness vs Templars, specifically in reference to this war.

[fhs33721]

Tevinter is in no position to attack Southern Thedas and even the Qunari would eventually have been driven back by attrition. That said, although they probably would have won in the end, if the Mage-Templar war was that one sided, it's unlikely there would have ever even been a conclave. The templars would have had no need to agree to negotiate for peace if they had already all but crushed the mages.

Except that is basically the plot of DAI? Yeah ok it's just a rogue cultist group, that the Tevinters aren't secretly cheering for at home at all (Sarcasm mode), but still. And they would have gotten away with it too it weren't for that meddling Inquisitor and their plot convenience.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except that is basically the plot of DAI? Yeah ok it's just a rogue cultist group, that the Tevinters aren't secretly cheering for at home at all (Sarcasm mode), but still. And they would have gotten away with it too it weren't for that meddling Inquisitor and their plot convenience.

 

You actually think the Venatori alone could have physically conquered and held Orlais and Ferelden and Nevarra and Antiva and the Free Marches by force?

 

Corypheus also had Red Templars, and demons at his disposal. The Imperium is barely able to hold on to their own slowly receding borders.

 

 

Given Fiona and the mages context, the Conclave was because the Templars had all but crushed the mages. The caveat for the 'but' was the mages holed up in Redcliffe- ergo, under the protection, and authority, and influence of a chantry-aligned Kingdom. The Templars wouldn't attack (lest they pick a fight they could not win), but the Mages couldn't continue either.

 

Politically the Conclave was up in the air, but functionally it was a negotiation of the mage surrender. That's not as bad as it sounds politically- the mages had a good political hand and the Templars some significant restrictions to get a victory- but the war was pretty much over by that point, since there were only four broad strokes of what could happen.

 

The Templars alienate Ferelden by attacking the last mage bastion- probably leads to the Templars being destroyed. The short term victory over the mage rebellion ends with political failure because the Templars won't be in a place to re-instate the Circles and run them going forward. A Templar attack is a fight they can't win (against Ferelden) and a lack of political involvement going forward (restoring the Circles).

 

The Mages can't alienate Ferelden too much because doing so would see them kicked out of Redcliffe. That either leaves them with no other defense against the Templars waiting outside the gates- the whole reason they needed refuge in the first place- and thus total defeat. Having alienated their patrons, and with no other survivors to guide the circles, the Templars lack a real opponent to restoring the Circles.

 

The Mages and Templars can come to a peace treaty at the Conclave. Specifics would depend on context and deals, but outlines would almost certainly include a re-establishment of the Circles, some face-saving reforms and limited immunity for rebel mages, and likely changes to Chantry heirarchy in favor of the Templars (such as the replacement of the Divine in favor of someone the Templars and Seekers would respect and follow).

 

Or the Mages and Templars can NOT come to a deal... and end up in a status quo in which they wait on opposite sides of the wall until someone ticks off the major players enough, or the status quo becomes a de facto deal in and of itself. Redcliffe becomes a de facto mage circle/college, but mages can't leave. Mages have freedom from the Templars, but can't oppose the Crown's authority. Either it works- becoming a status quo- or it doesn't, and either Templars or Mages get Ferelden firmly on their side.

 

No matter what, the mage rebellion's ability to continue on its own power is over. It's dependent on the favor of Ferelden.

 

The game definitely does not suggest that the Templars agreed to the Conclave because they didn't want to provoke Ferelden. It specifically suggests that the Templars weren't getting the easy victory they expected.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Given Fiona and the mages context, the Conclave was because the Templars had all but crushed the mages. The caveat for the 'but' was the mages holed up in Redcliffe- ergo, under the protection, and authority, and influence of a chantry-aligned Kingdom. The Templars wouldn't attack (lest they pick a fight they could not win), but the Mages couldn't continue either.

 

Politically the Conclave was up in the air, but functionally it was a negotiation of the mage surrender. That's not as bad as it sounds politically- the mages had a good political hand and the Templars some significant restrictions to get a victory- but the war was pretty much over by that point, since there were only four broad strokes of what could happen.

 

The Templars alienate Ferelden by attacking the last mage bastion- probably leads to the Templars being destroyed. The short term victory over the mage rebellion ends with political failure because the Templars won't be in a place to re-instate the Circles and run them going forward. A Templar attack is a fight they can't win (against Ferelden) and a lack of political involvement going forward (restoring the Circles).

 

The Mages can't alienate Ferelden too much because doing so would see them kicked out of Redcliffe. That either leaves them with no other defense against the Templars waiting outside the gates- the whole reason they needed refuge in the first place- and thus total defeat. Having alienated their patrons, and with no other survivors to guide the circles, the Templars lack a real opponent to restoring the Circles.

 

The Mages and Templars can come to a peace treaty at the Conclave. Specifics would depend on context and deals, but outlines would almost certainly include a re-establishment of the Circles, some face-saving reforms and limited immunity for rebel mages, and likely changes to Chantry heirarchy in favor of the Templars (such as the replacement of the Divine in favor of someone the Templars and Seekers would respect and follow).

 

Or the Mages and Templars can NOT come to a deal... and end up in a status quo in which they wait on opposite sides of the wall until someone ticks off the major players enough, or the status quo becomes a de facto deal in and of itself. Redcliffe becomes a de facto mage circle/college, but mages can't leave. Mages have freedom from the Templars, but can't oppose the Crown's authority. Either it works- becoming a status quo- or it doesn't, and either Templars or Mages get Ferelden firmly on their side.

 

No matter what, the mage rebellion's ability to continue on its own power is over. It's dependent on the favor of Ferelden.

 

There is no evidence of this in game. At all. From the game, what you have is Templars and Mages having to come together because the war is decimating the lands and one side is not gaining the upper hand over the other.  It was a costly and bloody stalemate.

[Dean_the_Young]

The game definitely does not suggest that the Templars agreed to the Conclave because they didn't want to provoke Ferelden. It specifically suggests that the Templars weren't getting the easy victory they expected.

 

 

And I never said the game did- but that is the political context they were facing, and the Templars never did launch a significant attack on Redcliffe, and it's not hard to connect dots.

 

'Easy' or not, Fiona already establishes that the mages lost the war- not only by her own admission, or her willingness to sell the mage freedom rebellion into slavery in the name of security, but by virtue of the fact that the last and only mage holdout is... within the haven offered by Ferelden, and otherwise neutral party. While the Templars have fortifications and garrisons across Thedas, including across Ferelden, and retain field armies and have crushed resistance everywhere else across the continent. The last mages in the field- the mage supremacists outside Redcliffe's walls- are matched by a mere splinter faction of the greater Templar host.

 

When the last mages are forced to resort to the protection of a patron, they've lost their key autonomy and independence. When the main body of the Templars has not and does not attack despite winning elsewhere on every front, there must be a reason why. When the mages' sole patron is a kingdom with strength far greater than the Templars- who have already established relative superiority over the mages by virtue of wiping them out everywhere else- the reason isn't hard to reason.

 

Cassandra and some others confess to having no clue as to why or how the Conclave was supposed to work. But if we actually look at the context, there is a logic, even if not explicit-

 

The Templars are not a match for a Kingdom that has stepped forward and offered one of the most significant fortresses in the country to protect the mages. But the mages, having proven they are not a match for the Templars in the field, can not afford to spurn their protector while the Templars are in the field. Ferelden has the mages by the balls, and is a force the Templars can't overwhelm them and expect to set up new Circles afterwards, and that's why the Conclave works as a peace talks involving every major faction leader trying to make a deal rather than superficial pleasantries.