241 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

There is no evidence of this in game. At all. From the game, what you have is Templars and Mages having to come together because the war is decimating the lands and one side is not gaining the upper hand over the other.  It was a costly and bloody stalemate.

 

Stalemate implies relative equality of power in the field. The Mages were forced to rely on third-party security that wasn't even fighting their battle for them, while a host of the enemy fragment (the Renegade Templars who refused orders to withdraw) matched the last mage force in the field. When a fragment of a force matches all fielded forces, and every theater has been lost, you are not in a stalemate.

 

That's what's in the game, even before we meet Fiona and she tells us herself that the war was lost. The Templars weren't in a stalemate with the mages- the Templars were in a stalemate with Ferelden.

[In Exile]

When the last mages are forced to resort to the protection of a patron, they've lost their key autonomy and independence. When the main body of the Templars has not and does not attack despite winning elsewhere on every front, there must be a reason why. When the mages' sole patron is a kingdom with strength far greater than the Templars- who have already established relative superiority over the mages by virtue of wiping them out everywhere else- the reason isn't hard to reason.

 

What autonomy and independence? The mages are essentially an amorphous group of particularly dangerous refugees. They never had autonomy - and squatting in the woods in muck while starving didn't doesn't really make them autonomous. 

 

Not that I disagree that mages "lost" the war in the sense that they didn't really seem capable of killing all of the templars, but there was very clearly no endgame to what they were doing here. It wasn't even like a slave rebellion, where there is at least some identifiable goal and state authority against which to rebel.

 

It would be one thing if e.g. the mages just tried to clear out their Circle Towers and turn those into an independent self-governing city-state, but essentially it seems the gameplan was to go squat in the woods, so basically: "Independence Vote" => ??? => "Profit" being the gameplan here.

 

Which is why, ultimately, a Conclave is a resounding success for the mages, because it's the closest thing they can have to success: a recognition of their standing and status as a polity and a willingness on the part of the Powers That Be ™ to address their grievances. It's not clear what, if any, concessions the Divine was prepared to make, but if they did get concessions, and if the Divine did bring the templars to heel (perhaps by forming her Inquisition and splintering their order), then ultimately their rebellion wins.

 

We're talking about a group of imprisoned intellectuals, who had no real military training, absolutely no territory, no supply chain, no resources, and, apparently, almost no goodwill against the populace, with no political standing to speak of at the outset. That they got political standing, even by virtue of being killed brutally while confronting the templars and squating in the woods, until the ruler of Ferelden took pity on them and the Divine sided with them over the templar order (or so the templars would say) was a victory. 

[Dean_the_Young]

What autonomy and independence? The mages are essentially an amorphous group of particularly dangerous refugees. They never had autonomy - and squatting in the woods in muck while starving didn't doesn't really make them autonomous.

 

It does, actually. It means they can choose their leadership, their internal policies, their external relations, and so on. It's not autonomy free from outside pressure, but nothing ever is.

 

But, most specificlly, the autonomy and independence of a polity. As loose and disorganized as it was, the Mage Rebellion did (temporarily) assert itself free from external control. It was a mess, desperate, and doomed, but it could choose how to do such things. By taking Ferelden's sanctuary and being dependent on Ferelden's hospitality, it lost that discretion.
 

 

Not that I disagree that mages "lost" the war in the sense that they didn't really seem capable of killing all of the templars, but there was very clearly no endgame to what they were doing here. It wasn't even like a slave rebellion, where there is at least some identifiable goal and state authority against which to rebel.

 

 

Oh, I agree. The rebellion was unplanned from the start, and I've criticized this for years. I'm pretty sure there are posts on the DA2 board where I argued that the mage rebellion lacked an actual achievable goal, and I certainly did before DAI.

 

Which is why the Conclave works from the framework of negotiated, face-saving surrender to end the conflict. The mages don't have an endgame- but the Templars can't have one either without the Chantry's support for the Circles again. Without Chantry support, the Templars can't run new Circles.

 

 

 

It would be one thing if e.g. the mages just tried to clear out their Circle Towers and turn those into an independent self-governing city-state, but essentially it seems the gameplan was to go squat in the woods, so basically: "Independence Vote" => ??? => "Profit" being the gameplan here.

 

 

 

You forgot Fiona's favored step: "**** the Divine."

 

 

Which is why, ultimately, a Conclave is a resounding success for the mages, because it's the closest thing they can have to success: a recognition of their standing and status as a polity and a willingness on the part of the Powers That Be ™ to address their grievances. It's not clear what, if any, concessions the Divine was prepared to make, but if they did get concessions, and if the Divine did bring the templars to heel (perhaps by forming her Inquisition and splintering their order), then ultimately their rebellion wins.

 

 

I'd argue the opposite- the fact that they are coming to the Conclave is the sign of failure, because the Mage position at the beginning of the war was 'no Chantry authority, no one else, no way.' The Mages already had the willingness of the Powers That Be to address their grievances, give concessions, and try to reign in the Templars. That's what the Chantry in Asunder was all about- and that's what Fiona threw away when she went ahead with Rebellion, because all that wasn't good enough. Any acknowledgement of the Chantry's authority was too much.

 

Now, two/three years later, the mages are coming back to say that what was intolerable a few years ago is now a victory, after being defeated soundly in every theater to the point that they have to hide behind someone else's walls and army? That's not a credible claim of victory. It's not the worst negotiating hand- game theory is weird like that when you have strong backers- but it's also weaker than what they had pre-rebellion. They can't plausibly threaten to rebel again, because they've lost the battlefield and if they refuse peace they can be forced out. Without Ferelden's support, they're doomed- but Ferelden's support is clearly limited, or else Ferelden would actually be fighting the Templars.

 

The Mages will certainly get some concessions to save face and claim it wasn't a total disaster- but the concessions they'll get are likely ones they already could have gotten. The real party that will get concessions will be the Templars, from the Chantry. The Divine has the lever of providing long-term support for the Circles... but many in the Chantry want to do that regardless, and the Templars have clearly maintained a support base separate from the Chantry that make them non-dependent on the Divine's good graces. If Justinia wants to leash the Templars... like Vivienne says, a leash can be pulled in both directions.

 

If Justinia could enforce a leash in the first place, there wouldn't have been a Templar revolt in the first place. The Chantry's done nothing to change that... and the only thing it can plausibly offer would be the mage's surrender. Which would be capitullation of the mage rebellion's goal, and victory for the Templars. Otherwise, the price the Templars impose for even a symbolic leashing could be a real change to who holds that leash.

 

 

 

We're talking about a group of imprisoned intellectuals, who had no real military training, absolutely no territory, no supply chain, no resources, and, apparently, almost no goodwill against the populace, with no political standing to speak of at the outset. That they got political standing, even by virtue of being killed brutally while confronting the templars and squating in the woods, until the ruler of Ferelden took pity on them and the Divine sided with them over the templar order (or so the templars would say) was a victory. 

 

 

Nah, they never got political standing- they already had it. What they got was being forced back into the political engagement. The mage rebellion kicked off over attempted Chantry negotiations with the Circle on the topic of reforms, and the mage-hardliners refusal to settle.

 

The mages didn't earn a spot at the negotiating table they previously lacked- they returned to a spot they'd previously walked away from after a great many of their lot was killed. If anything, going back to the table was a cost imposed on them by Ferelden in exchange for pity and protection- 'if you don't make nice, back to the wilds and the Templars with you.'

 

Remember, the Mages weren't rebelling in order to negotiate reforms- the rebellion was instead of negotiations, because any Chantry and Templar involvement was too much.

[Steelcan]

I'm curious, let's assume the Conclave wasn't blown to bits and the Mages and Templars sat down to hash out an arrangement, what would the templars even give up?  They've won the war, Ferelden likely can't harbor the mages indefinitely, so what were the mages hoping to get from them? 

[thesuperdarkone2]

I suppose it's a good thing Corypheus pretty much hijacked the war. Cory is the real mvp

[Steelcan]

I suppose it's a good thing Corypheus pretty much hijacked the war. Cory is the real mvp

depends on who the Inquisitor goes with, if the Templars are sided with then the mages get a sword in a the gut and a snow funeral

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm curious, let's assume the Conclave wasn't blown to bits and the Mages and Templars sat down to hash out an arrangement, what would the templars even give up?  They've won the war, Ferelden likely can't harbor the mages indefinitely, so what were the mages hoping to get from them? 

 

What the Templars most likely 'give up' are the reforms the Mages get to claim as concessions. Some of the worse practices that should have been gotten rid of (like the use of Tranquility as a punishment), easing up on privileges (mage trips to towns for shopping), and losing on a few debatable but politically indefensible positions (research into the tranquility cure).

 

What really costs them will be the Divine's attempts to leash and re-assert control over the Templars. This is what will really be fought over, involve a good deal of give-and-take, and be the most contested and politically contentious. Here's what the Chantry will probably try.

 

First, some variation of the Nevarran Accord will be insisted on. This one will probably try and emphasize the position of the Templars (subordinate to the Chantry) rather than the role (reigning in mages) so that the Chantry's authority is more important than the Templars' job. Basically, formally make the Templars the soldiers of the Chantry, rather than allied and defferential guardians of the circles.

 

Second, reconsolidate control of the lyrium supply. Addiction will be the key leash to control the Templars, and making the Templars dependent on the Chantry will be paramount to avoiding another break-away.

 

Third, dismantle the Templar support  base of nobles and merchants who provided the money, arms, and support that allowed the Templars to wage war against the Chantry's wishes. This ties into the lyrium supply, but is broader and more more difficult due to Templar grass-roots support.

 

Fourth, a purge of the Templar leadership. War leaders might not be charged with crimes, but they will be replaced to the maximum extent possible. Expect the appointment of political loyalists amenable to the Divine to the top of the chain of command. Notorious war leaders will be blacklisted from further advancement, as will anti-Chantry sentiments.

 

Fifth, restructuring of the Seekers. Of all the Templars (so to speak), the Seekers are the most dangerous and autonomous since they are ideologically driven and do not require lyrium or other Chantry controls. A disbandment is possible, but the time for being the natural hands of the Divine is likely over. A non-violent purge to irrelevance is likely.

 

Sixth, the creation of a new oversight/security aparatus to monitor the Templars and replace the Seekers. This will include spies, infiltraitors, investigators, and informant networks to not only detect Templar abuses, but monitor ideological loyalty to the Chantry to identify and address potential rebel sentiment.

 

 

That's a rough list of things to go for.

[Sifr]

Best answer I've seen. Even the Tevinter couldn't stand against experienced Templar soldiers and they're some of the world's most powerful mages. That as most know was shown in the world map quests.

 

But when you look at it in context, Tevinters aren't at all experienced dealing with Templars who can negate magic, something that the mission report even makes comment on that they were caught completely by surprise with.

 

Dorian tells us that they declawed the Order in the Imperium long ago, so even though they know those in the South can negate magic, Tevinters have rarely ever had to experience those abilities first hand.

 

So really, Tevinters are probably worse at dealing with Templars than southern mages, when you think about it?

[Secret Rare]

Small point: Andraste didn't get anywhere near taking Minrathous.   Contrary to the propaganda in the Chant of Light, she hadn't reached the gates of Minrathous with her army when she was taken; she was in Nevarra and only ever went to Minrathous under armed guard.   Then Hessarian suddenly decided to convert to the Maker, with the support of the downtrodden Soporati, some ten years later because it was a convenient way of getting rid of his political opponents in one fell swoop.      The Valarian Fields might be shown on the modern map as sitting just outside Minrathous but the site of the battle would have been much further south, probably not far from the stronghold in Nevarra where she was captured.    There were strong hints that the history didn't match the rhetoric in the game but it was outlined clearly in World of Thedas 2.  

That's mostly correct still the "greatness" of the Imperium  was crushed by Dumat.

[Secret Rare]

Well I do think my Templar Warden would destroy my Inquistor & Hawke in an instant, as their both mages...

 

Loool my Reaver + Berserker Warden also drank Avernus potion, combined with darkspawn taint - so he is physically the strongest and fastest humanoid in either game so far and he just gets stronger the more you wound him = he would wreck Hawke and the Inquisitor me thinks.

My warden this,my warden that....bah same old story.

Nobody asked about your wardens here....

[German Soldier]

I still wonder why the Ferelden rulers (Alsitair/ANora) helped the mages...

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

My warden this,my warden that....bah same old story.

Nobody asked about your wardens here....

 

Yea the same invincible warden who got defeated by the magical trap of The Architect,so much for being a super templar eater of mages....

[GoldenGail3]

My warden this,my warden that....bah same old story.
Nobody asked about your wardens here....

You asked about Mages/Templar's. I used my Mage Quiz and Templar Warden as an example (despite Templar Wardens being a bit OP...) And becuase I'm too lazy to really agrue about mages/Templar anyhow.

[Colonelkillabee]

But when you look at it in context, Tevinters aren't at all experienced dealing with Templars who can negate magic, something that the mission report even makes comment on that they were caught completely by surprise with.
 
Dorian tells us that they declawed the Order in the Imperium long ago, so even though they know those in the South can negate magic, Tevinters have rarely ever had to experience those abilities first hand.
 
So really, Tevinters are probably worse at dealing with Templars than southern mages, when you think about it?

If they came up with some spell to counter their effect, I'd agree, but so far all I'm seeing people say is the one with the strongest will wins, and I'd assume Tevinter have stronger willpower than your typical circle Mage. Also, it's not like they got any real practice at fighting with Templars prior to this war, and those that do end up dead, even most abominations.

The only advantage mages here have is they know of their abilities as in what it does but not really how until it's too late. And we saw the events of the war, the end result was the same.

[sniper_arrow]

I still wonder why the Ferelden rulers (Alsitair/ANora) helped the mages...

 

I can't say for Anora honestly. But for Alistair, he sees them as victims of the war and those who have nowhere else to go. Most possibly he wants to help them due to his big heart. If Connor survived in DAO, Eamon (and Isolde's shrieking in my head canon) would convince Alistair to help his son and the mages. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I can't say for Anora honestly. But for Alistair, he sees them as victims of the war and those who have nowhere else to go. Most possibly he wants to help them due to his big heart. If Connor survived in DAO, Eamon (and Isolde's shrieking in my head canon) would convince Alistair to help his son and the mages. 

 

There's a morality argument, but there's also the basic self-interest argument. Ending the mage rebellion will end a brushfire war that's killing Ferelden subjects and restore the system that allowed the nations to get on and not have to deal with all the mages constantly popping up. The Kingdoms of Thedas want some Circle system to keep mages trained and out of the way- untrained mages popping up without training or Templar countermeasures helps no one.

 

The fact that it can also be swung as a influence gain- look at Ferelden, helping the Chantry while Orlais is divided and distracted- is also an element.

 

Short of outright intervening on one side or the other- and there are reasons to avoid that- offering sanctuary to press the mages to the negotiating table is a good idea on multiple grounds.

[German Soldier]

I can't say for Anora honestly. But for Alistair, he sees them as victims of the war and those who have nowhere else to go. Most possibly he wants to help them due to his big heart. If Connor survived in DAO, Eamon (and Isolde's shrieking in my head canon) would convince Alistair to help his son and the mages. 

I think you are right.

My only problem is with Anora she really act out of character since she is a practical woman ,if she have nothing to gain she don't help and as far as i'm concerned she doesn't care for mages..

[stop_him]

Haha, and that's why you play a rogue, and send an arrow straight up a templar's ass, then engage stealth. "Find me now, tin can." 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Haha, and that's why you play a rogue, and send an arrow straight up a templar's ass, then engage stealth. "Find me now, tin can." 

 

You do know that many Rogue abilities are pseudo magic right ? I mean how else do you explain the ability to become invisible in broad daylight ? How do you explain moving through the shadows ? How do you explain Mark of  Death and Fallback Plan ?

[sniper_arrow]

I think you are right.

My only problem is with Anora she really act out of character since she is a practical woman ,if she have nothing to gain she don't help and as far as i'm concerned she doesn't care for mages..

 

Dean_the_Young posted a good analysis on why Anora alone would help the mages:

 

There's a morality argument, but there's also the basic self-interest argument. Ending the mage rebellion will end a brushfire war that's killing Ferelden subjects and restore the system that allowed the nations to get on and not have to deal with all the mages constantly popping up. The Kingdoms of Thedas want some Circle system to keep mages trained and out of the way- untrained mages popping up without training or Templar countermeasures helps no one.

 

The fact that it can also be swung as a influence gain- look at Ferelden, helping the Chantry while Orlais is divided and distracted- is also an element.

 

Short of outright intervening on one side or the other- and there are reasons to avoid that- offering sanctuary to press the mages to the negotiating table is a good idea on multiple grounds.

 

 

In short, Anora would probably help them in order to win brownie points.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Dean_the_Young posted a good analysis on why Anora alone would help the mages:

 

 

 

In short, Anora would probably help them in order to win brownie points.

Except Anora's codex makes it clear the other nations of Thedas are pretty much boycotting Ferelden because they are harboring the rebel mages.

 

If the attempt is to gain brownie points, it's failing.

 

Just face it, Bioware just wants to have a default type of world regardless of how much sense it makes with regards to choices. Why else would Divine Vivienne ever allow the creation of the College?

[sniper_arrow]

Except Anora's codex makes it clear the other nations of Thedas are pretty much boycotting Ferelden because they are harboring the rebel mages.

 

If the attempt is to gain brownie points, it's failing.

 

Just face it, Bioware just wants to have a default type of world regardless of how much sense it makes with regards to choices. Why else would Divine Vivienne ever allow the creation of the College?

 

Then again, she didn't expect Fiona's alliance with Tevinter. 

[Sifr]

If they came up with some spell to counter their effect, I'd agree, but so far all I'm seeing people say is the one with the strongest will wins, and I'd assume Tevinter have stronger willpower than your typical circle Mage. Also, it's not like they got any real practice at fighting with Templars prior to this war, and those that do end up dead, even most abominations.

 

I don't think we can say that Tevinters do have stronger willpower than Circle Mages, they are most certainly more confident (often to the point of arrogance) when it comes to how they practice magic and they obviously have more tricks up their sleeves, but that doesn't necessarily mean their willpower is stronger.

 

Mages in the south have to train their willpower because they have no shortcuts they can take if they don't want to be executed. In Tevinter however, while Dorian tells us that not all mages use it, they know that Blood Magic is far more easier path to getting a quick and simple magical power boost to take down one's rivals in a pinch.

 

A good analogy is to think of it like a gym. The mages in the south are on a strict training program not everyone follows well, so for every mage that does manage to get the 20 week abs there's two more that didn't do so well and are still slightly pudgy. Tevinter meanwhile is an unregulated Mr Universe contest, filled with people popping superpower steroids to get ripped with half the workout time.

 

I'm not saying that a fully trained and highly skilled Tevinter Mage couldn't dominate his southern counterparts or Templars in a fight without the use of blood magic, because that does seem plausible. I'm just questioning whether or not they do possess stronger willpower overall?

 

Ones willpower can derive from how much you want to succeed after all. Because Tevinter doesn't really penalise it's mages for taking shortcuts in the pursuit of knowledge, power or their own excellence, then it could be that their strength is derived not from possessing of stronger willpower, but because they are far more likely to cheat if caught in a pinch.

 

Again, not saying that Tevinter are all cheaters who can't win a fair fight and use blood magic to win... just that they seem to be trained with a mindset that doesn't preclude them from resorting to such tactics if they want to succeed. They are also savvy enough to know that if they don't use underhanded methods from time to time, their rivals most certainly will.

[BansheeOwnage]

You do know that many Rogue abilities are pseudo magic right ? I mean how else do you explain the ability to become invisible in broad daylight ? How do you explain moving through the shadows ? How do you explain Mark of  Death and Fallback Plan ?

Not disagreeing with you, but in a cutscene a Harlequin used Stealth and popped a smoke grenade on her position (like all characters do), which makes it semi-plausible, but only for a quick escape and disorientation, not the full-on invisibility that it is in gameplay.

[Colonelkillabee]

I don't think we can say that Tevinters do have stronger willpower than Circle Mages, they are most certainly more confident (often to the point of arrogance) when it comes to how they practice magic and they obviously have more tricks up their sleeves, but that doesn't necessarily mean their willpower is stronger.

 

Mages in the south have to train their willpower because they have no shortcuts they can take if they don't want to be executed. In Tevinter however, while Dorian tells us that not all mages use it, they know that Blood Magic is far more easier path to getting a quick and simple magical power boost to take down one's rivals in a pinch.

 

A good analogy is to think of it like a gym. The mages in the south are on a strict training program not everyone follows well, so for every mage that does manage to get the 20 week abs there's two more that didn't do so well and are still slightly pudgy. Tevinter meanwhile is an unregulated Mr Universe contest, filled with people popping superpower steroids to get ripped with half the workout time.

 

I'm not saying that a fully trained and highly skilled Tevinter Mage couldn't dominate his southern counterparts or Templars in a fight without the use of blood magic, because that does seem plausible. I'm just questioning whether or not they do possess stronger willpower overall?

 

Ones willpower can derive from how much you want to succeed after all. Because Tevinter doesn't really penalise it's mages for taking shortcuts in the pursuit of knowledge, power or their own excellence, then it could be that their strength is derived not from possessing of stronger willpower, but because they are far more likely to cheat if caught in a pinch.

 

Again, not saying that Tevinter are all cheaters who can't win a fair fight and use blood magic to win... just that they seem to be trained with a mindset that doesn't preclude them from resorting to such tactics if they want to succeed. They are also savvy enough to know that if they don't use underhanded methods from time to time, their rivals most certainly will.

Honestly I have no idea, I just tend to assume that Tevinter and Dalish mages are on the stronger side because like Morrigan, they aren't limited in their magical training by the chantry or the circle. I'm sure that not every Tevinter mage is superior of course, but overall if they had to fight in a war, I'd put my money on the Tevinter, basically.