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[Lulupab]

Anders was a very talented mage before that, he kills hundreds of Darkspawn all by himself when defending vigils keep.

 

As for Mages being able to fight Templars, they can. All mages in Tevinter use metal bladed staves, meaning they are more than prepared to fight in the melee as well. The south has called many exalted marches on Tevinter and used Templars as well, but none of which could actually defeat Tevinter as the result of all exalted marches on Tevinter was indecisive for both sides. But given that Tevinter was the defending party, the result was slightly in their favor since their goal was simply surviving the attack of all human nations united.

 

Why necro the thread though?

[Steelcan]

Once again. Losing not as badly as you could doesn't make indecisive any more victorious.

[Lulupab]

Once again. Losing not as badly as you could doesn't make indecisive any more victorious.

 

You keep telling yourself that. Everyone have a clear goal when starting the war, but when only side reaches that goal, its a victory. No matter how small.

 

Tevinter goal: repel the attack

South goal: destroy Tevinter

 

When you siege a city, thousands die on both sides but you are unable to capture the city, the defense has won. Even if it was barely worth the resources spent, because you are sure the attacker spent more.

[MisterJB]

I'm not exactly sure why someone would think that a war that pitted a majorly non-mage Tevinter army against a majorly non-Templar Southern army somehow serves as benchmark for anything Templar or mage.

 

Also, I will remind everyone that Minrathous has 4 giant golems protecting it.

[Lulupab]

Well its known that an exalted march can and does summon help from circles, and who reside in circles? Templars and Mages.

 

And we know that Tevinter definitely uses mages in wars, any mage that can fight most likely participates. Magisters openly participate in battles on Seheron. So if a magister joins the war, then a low ranking mage definitely does as well.

 

Not to mention if Tevinter was able to repel the attacks of rest of Thedas united without help of magic, then its definitely a genius strategist when it comes to war. Tevinter has survived full assaults from all humanity combined that allegedly had a god on their side, repeatedly. It also survived a full Qunari invasion and a 200 year lasting blight. I think its borderline silly to think mages were not the factor that turned the tides for them all these times. And the southern nations would be utter fools if they didn't use Templars versus them, which I'm positive they did.

[Lulupab]

Of course Tevinter is not the only example. Out of all the circles in the south, Templars were only able to stop one circle from rebelling, Dairsmuid circle. According to a codex entry in the game "The templars and Seekers slew all mages inside, but not without suffering heavy casualties". The rest of the circles successfully rebelled and mages got out. Mind you the Templars got reinforcements from Seekers, who are far more capable than Templars.

 

This paragraph is from asunder: 

 

"The surviving first enchanters, the Grand Enchanter among them, retreated to the fortress of Andoral's Reach. Most of the fifteen Circles rose against the templars, with thousands of mages gathering at Andoral's Reach in the following months. It is predicted that with hundreds of mages manning the battlements, they could fend off an army ten times their size."

 

The mages can and do fight the Templars.

[Steelcan]

You keep telling yourself that. Everyone have a clear goal when starting the war, but when only side reaches that goal, its a victory. No matter how small.

 

Tevinter goal: repel the attack

South goal: destroy Tevinter

 

When you siege a city, thousands die on both sides but you are unable to capture the city, the defense has won. Even if it was barely worth the resources spent, because you are sure the attacker spent more.

And once again, other lands might have been taken from Tevinter, other concessions could be made.

 

There are other ways to end war besides total victory, and total defeat.

[Xilizhra]

I'm not exactly sure why someone would think that a war that pitted a majorly non-mage Tevinter army against a majorly non-Templar Southern army somehow serves as benchmark for anything Templar or mage.

 

Also, I will remind everyone that Minrathous has 4 giant golems protecting it.

Not a war, four wars, all of which Tevinter won.

 

 

And once again, other lands might have been taken from Tevinter, other concessions could be made.

 

There are other ways to end war besides total victory, and total defeat.

The southern Divine also could have been raped to death as part of a victory celebration after the third March's failure, but all of this is entirely headcanon territory, i.e. crap-made-up territory. What we know is that the Chantry consistently failed in its attempts to force Tevinter to follow its orthodoxy.

[Steelcan]

 

The southern Divine also could have been raped to death as part of a victory celebration after the third March's failure, but all of this is entirely headcanon territory, i.e. crap-made-up territory. What we know is that the Chantry consistently failed in its attempts to force Tevinter to follow its orthodoxy.

And so what?  That doesn't make them outright victories for Tevinter.  Hell, since Tevinter has never been able to expand southwards (ignoring a small little defection in the mid-Dragon Age) since then, the Marches can be said to have successfully prevented Tevinter designs on Southern Thedas.

 

We know that Minrathous never fell, but we don't know if other territories were chipped away at in the process of these marches.  They cannot be called Tevinter victories if they had to cede some land (even land they didn't care about or need). 

[Xilizhra]

And so what?  That doesn't make them outright victories for Tevinter.  Hell, since Tevinter has never been able to expand southwards (ignoring a small little defection in the mid-Dragon Age) since then, the Marches can be said to have successfully prevented Tevinter designs on Southern Thedas.

And that requires headcanoning Tevinter designs on southern Thedas.

 

 

We know that Minrathous never fell, but we don't know if other territories were chipped away at in the process of these marches.  They cannot be called Tevinter victories if they had to cede some land (even land they didn't care about or need). 

So you're relying on things that are never stated to somehow deflate what has been stated. You're literally denying Tevinter victories based on nothing.

[Asdrubael Vect]

And so what?  That doesn't make them outright victories for Tevinter.  Hell, since Tevinter has never been able to expand southwards (ignoring a small little defection in the mid-Dragon Age) since then, the Marches can be said to have successfully prevented Tevinter designs on Southern Thedas.

As i remember it was a very long time ago when Tevinter wanted some of south lands, it was after 3 blight as i remember then they have took some city where they win archdeamon but later they abbandon it cos they have no use of it

 

And what actual reasons Tevinter have for expansion even if we forget that Qunari for hundreds of years are not stop to invade and die on their lands?

 

And in what lands they need to expand? Blighted desserts of Anderfels where Grey Wardens sits what they abbandon by themselfs sinse 1 blight or desert of Solassan or swamps of Antiva which Merchant Princess with their Felicima Armada already a puppets of magisters?

 

They lands as cities could hold much more peoples when it have now after 1000 years of wars and deaths cos of blights and wars, they have much better infrastructure and peoples who does not need to be teached to be Imperium citizens, there is no profit in this and just a waste of Imperium material as people resources, and time

 

 

What south lands could have what Tevinter need? low quality slaves?

 

As i rebember only Qunari are stupid to make attemps for expansion just for expension as Seekers Orlais Chantry was try to controll of Thedas minds

[Steelcan]

And that requires headcanoning Tevinter designs on southern Thedas.

 

 

So you're relying on things that are never stated to somehow deflate what has been stated. You're literally denying Tevinter victories based on nothing.

Yes truly, the benevolent magisters of Minrathous would NEVER contemplate meddling in the affairs of their neighbors.  Remember that before the Qunari showed up the Tevinters would have been a much larger threat when they didn't have to divert all of their attention to the north.

 

No, I'm saying we can't call them Tevinter victories because we don't know all the effects of each March and any potential territory cedes, payments made, and so on.  I'm not going to claim White Thedas won or anything.  Only that a peace where Tevinter escaped less bloodied than they might have been does not a victory make.

[Steelcan]

As i remember it was a very long time ago when Tevinter wanted some of south lands, it was after 3 blight as i remember then they have took some city where they win archdeamon but later they abbandon it cos they have no use of it

 

And what actual reasons Tevinter have for expansion even if we forget that Qunari for hundreds of years are not stop to invade and die on their lands?

 

And in what lands they need to expand? Blighted desserts of Anderfels where Grey Wardens sits what they abbandon by themselfs sinse 1 blight or desert of Solassan or swamps of Antiva which Merchant Princess with their Felicima Armada already a puppets of magisters?

 

They lands as cities could hold much more peoples when it have now after 1000 years of wars and deaths cos of blights and wars, they have much better infrastructure and peoples who does not need to be teached to be Imperium citizens, there is no profit in this

 

 

What south lands could have what Tevinter need? low quality slaves?

 

As i rebember only Qunari are stupid to make attemps for expansion just for expension as Seekers Orlais Chantry was try to controll of Thedas minds

The Qunari weren't around for the majority of the Exalted Marches, meaning Tevinter did not ahve its attention wholly North.  And there are certainly alnds worth having, Antiva and its riches, the Free Marches and their strategic position and vital ports, take land from Orlais to weaken them and whatnot.

[Xilizhra]

Yes truly, the benevolent magisters of Minrathous would NEVER contemplate meddling in the affairs of their neighbors.  Remember that before the Qunari showed up the Tevinters would have been a much larger threat when they didn't have to divert all of their attention to the north.

Bring me proof, and I'll acknowledge it.

 

 

No, I'm saying we can't call them Tevinter victories because we don't know all the effects of each March and any potential territory cedes, payments made, and so on.  I'm not going to claim White Thedas won or anything.  Only that a peace where Tevinter escaped less bloodied than they might have been does not a victory make.

Imperial Chantry codex entry: "After four Exalted Marches to dislodge these "rebels," all that the Chantry in Val Royeaux accomplished was to cement the separation." Nothing about any land gains or the like.

[Steelcan]

Bring me proof, and I'll acknowledge it.

 

 

Imperial Chantry codex entry: "After four Exalted Marches to dislodge these "rebels," all that the Chantry in Val Royeaux accomplished was to cement the separation." Nothing about any land gains or the like.

Right instead its more logical to assume that the Magisters let those territories go, never dreamed of taking them back, and were content to focus only on what they have.  Because ambition is not something that magisters have.  That is indeed much more likely.

 

Except we know that Tevinter has been shrinking over the course of the last few centuries and their strength has been waning.  I don't claim any specific land as proof of this or anything.  I'm only saying that indecisive wars do not mean that the defenders won.  If Tevinter never lost significant amounts of treasure and manpower during these wars, unlikely, then maybe you could make the claim that they "won".  However there is no proof of that, so calling the exalted marches "Tevinter victories" is wrong. 

[Xilizhra]

Right instead its more logical to assume that the Magisters let those territories go, never dreamed of taking them back, and were content to focus only on what they have.  Because ambition is not something that magisters have.  That is indeed much more likely.

Actually, the Paying the Ferryman short story says that this is exactly the problem with modern Tevinter: a dearth of true ambition, with its elite instead just squabbling with each other over meaningless scorekeeping, arguably even moreso than Orlesians.

 

 

Except we know that Tevinter has been shrinking over the course of the last few centuries and their strength has been waning.  I don't claim any specific land as proof of this or anything.  I'm only saying that indecisive wars do not mean that the defenders won.  If Tevinter never lost significant amounts of treasure and manpower during these wars, unlikely, then maybe you could make the claim that they "won".  However there is no proof of that, so calling the exalted marches "Tevinter victories" is wrong. 

These weren't wars fought over land to begin with, they were over theology. The southern Chantry tried to force Tevinter to follow its orthodoxy, and failed. That's pretty binary. That the southern Chantry lost is beyond argument, unless, again, you can find proof otherwise.

[Steelcan]

Actually, the Paying the Ferryman short story says that this is exactly the problem with modern Tevinter: a dearth of true ambition, with its elite instead just squabbling with each other over meaningless scorekeeping, arguably even moreso than Orlesians.

 

 

These weren't wars fought over land to begin with, they were over theology. The southern Chantry tried to force Tevinter to follow its orthodoxy, and failed. That's pretty binary. That the southern Chantry lost is beyond argument, unless, again, you can find proof otherwise.

modern Tevinter, Tevinter after they've been in decline for Maker knows how long.

 

And yet as I'm sure we all know, wars over Theology can sometimes also involve very down to Earth concerns as well

[MisterJB]

Well its known that an exalted march can and does summon help from circles, and who reside in circles? Templars and Mages.

 

And we know that Tevinter definitely uses mages in wars, any mage that can fight most likely participates. Magisters openly participate in battles on Seheron. So if a magister joins the war, then a low ranking mage definitely does as well.

 

Not to mention if Tevinter was able to repel the attacks of rest of Thedas united without help of magic, then its definitely a genius strategist when it comes to war. Tevinter has survived full assaults from all humanity combined that allegedly had a god on their side, repeatedly. It also survived a full Qunari invasion and a 200 year lasting blight. I think its borderline silly to think mages were not the factor that turned the tides for them all these times. And the southern nations would be utter fools if they didn't use Templars versus them, which I'm positive they did.

Yes, they used magic. And yes, the Templars were likely involved as well.

And 99% of both armies were still composed of regular soldiers. It's not like they placed all mages in one side, all Templars in the other and had the war be decided by it.

 

[Xilizhra]

modern Tevinter, Tevinter after they've been in decline for Maker knows how long.

 

And yet as I'm sure we all know, wars over Theology can sometimes also involve very down to Earth concerns as well

Absent proof, anything beyond that is merely your imagination.

[Steelcan]

Absent proof, anything beyond that is merely your imagination.

tough talk coming from you

 

There's no reason to think Tevinter won the exalted marches anymore than any other relatively indecisive war has had clear victors.

[MisterJB]

Not a war, four wars, all of which Tevinter won.

Won what, exactly?

 

They consistently lost territory while barely holding on to their capital (World of Thedas Volume 1 page 13), did not push into Andrastian lands, did not cripple the Southern Nation's ability to make war on them and only gained some respite because the Fourth Blight started.

 

So, Tevinter survived. Good for them.
 

[Xilizhra]

tough talk coming from you

 

There's no reason to think Tevinter won the exalted marches anymore than any other relatively indecisive war has had clear victors.

Except the codex entries and the fact that the Imperial Chantry still stands, you mean?

 

 

Won what, exactly?

 

They consistently lost territory while barely holding on to their capital (World of Thedas Volume 1 page 13), did not push into Andrastian lands, did not cripple the Southern Nation's ability to make war on them and only gained some respite because the Fourth Blight started.

 

So, Tevinter survived. Good for them.

It is good, given that it was one nation against several, but since Tevinter never had the objective of taking southern lands, I'm not really sure why you brought that up. Also, the southerners gave up even after the Fourth Blight was over.

[Lulupab]

Yes, they used magic. And yes, the Templars were likely involved as well.

And 99% of both armies were still composed of regular soldiers. It's not like they placed all mages in one side, all Templars in the other and had the war be decided by it.

 

I'd say 20% of Tevinter army is mages due to the fact that they have been trying to have mage children for thousands of years. So mages only have children with mages. I was simply pointing out the importance of mages because the odds were severely against Tevinter.

[Lulupab]

Won what, exactly?
 
They consistently lost territory while barely holding on to their capital (World of Thedas Volume 1 page 13), did not push into Andrastian lands, did not cripple the Southern Nation's ability to make war on them and only gained some respite because the Fourth Blight started.
 
So, Tevinter survived. Good for them.

 
Actually the south was too weak to fight the blight due to the wars with Tevinter, therefore the forth blight became one of the most devastating ones in history. That was Karma for them for attacking Tevinter when it was weakened by the blight.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Tevinter would have designs on their former territories in the south in a general sense, but during the Exalted Marches they would have been the defending party. I'm pretty sure the outcome of the Exalted Marches are described as "falling just short of conquering Minrathous" so I'd say they would have won the war in that "Defensive Stalemate = victory" sort of way. 

 

Yeah, after double checking WoT, it says Chantry armies "advanced well into Imperial land" but also that in the end the wars "did little but solidify the divide."

 

World of Thedas says both Orlais and Tevinter were able to fend of the darkspawn attacks pretty easily in the Fourth Blight. It was the smaller powers that suffered the worst.

 

I have a hard time imagining that the Blights that lasted barely over a decade as being anywhere near as devastating as the ones that lasted almost a century or two, though.