238 réponses à ce sujet

[pdusen]

The thing is that consumers (aka us) are not viewing size of game as positive. There is dissonance between players and marketers and it really feels like marketers are not getting it. The more they keep saying how big the game is and how much there is to explore the more worried consumers are going to be about the game.

And there is reasons to assume ME:A is not going to be that good. DAI is one of them, marketing is another. I'll wait and see, but I won't jump on hype train.

Quit saying "consumers" when what you mean is "Myself and those who agree with me." The average consumer not only doesn't share your concerns, but also is completely unaware that they exist.

We, posting on this forum, are not even the 1%. We are at best the .01%. We aren't statistically significant.

[BatarianBob]

Quit saying "consumers" when what you mean is "Myself and those who agree with me." The average consumer not only doesn't share your concerns, but also is completely unaware that they exist.

We, posting on this forum, are not even the 1%. We are at best the .01%. We aren't statistically significant.

 

Absolutely right.  The dissonance Panda refers to is not between marketers and gamers, it's between normal gamers and this forum.

[Panda]

Quit saying "consumers" when what you mean is "Myself and those who agree with me." The average consumer not only doesn't share your concerns, but also is completely unaware that they exist.

We, posting on this forum, are not even the 1%. We are at best the .01%. We aren't statistically significant.

 

No, cause that wasn't what I meant.

 

If we want to go with majority of gamers the game wouldn't need to be longer than tutorial, it wouldn't need to have CC, female PC, other classes than soldier, renegade etc. Thankfully it's not "majority" that reviews the game though and recommends it to others, it's customers like us and reviewers.. that actually do share these concerns.

[pdusen]

No, cause that wasn't what I meant.

 

If we want to go with majority of gamers the game wouldn't need to be longer than tutorial, it wouldn't need to have CC, female PC, other classes than soldier, renegade etc. Thankfully it's not "majority" that reviews the game though and recommends it to others, it's customers like us and reviewers.. that actually do share these concerns.

 

If that were true, then by virtue of me buying these games and using the CC, you are saying that I agree with you, which I don't. This is the fundamental problem with your comments here.

[SlottsMachine]

I get what you are saying. I don't think we are at that point where a game being marketed as "huge" has any negative meaning with most players that actually play the game. I'm sure it will happen eventually but I don't think we are there yet. 

[Linkenski]

Not exactly. I think it will be much worse.

Meh. The first teaser for Dragon Age Inquisitioon looked bland AF. I wasn't excited about the game until the very end of its marketing cycle when they started showing some twitch streams and stuff. Their marketing premise for their game sounded incredibly lame. "Save the world from itself -- a rift in the sky is pouring out demons" and stuff like that. Like with ME:A the first trailer also basically showed nothing. It was just a bunch of loose visual concepts and showing the overall look of the graphics engine. ME:A likely won't make me excited until I'm about to get it either. To be fair, Bioware has never been great at marketing, at least not in their EA days. Even ME2 has terrible marketing, except it had a fantastic launch trailer.

[Gothfather]

I am pretty sure there are a large number people that would say BioWare hasn't made a good game since Baldur's Gate 2, for there were plenty of upset people about Dragon Age: Origins and how they misled the community that it would be like Baldur's Gate because they used the term "spiritual successor".  

 

Personally I think there has always been "worry" for any title because BioWare doesn't release the same game each release like Ubisoft so people are always upset that the game they enjoyed has been ruined because BioWare made changes to how the game plays instead of just slapping a couple of new mine things on the existing game.

 

As far as BioWare not telling us anything, I think the community is to blame with how people have reacted to BioWare trying to stay communicating with us during the development of Mass Effect 2, Mass Effect 3, and Dragon Age: Inquisition.  I have experienced someone twisting my words to suit their scenario once and it ended a friendship, I could see a company not being nearly as open with how people reacted to the early communication with those three games.

 

That is the nature of gamers. The current game is invariably crap while the past game is lauded as the greatest.

 

BG2 crap compared to BG which is the greatest.

 

DA:O crap compared to BG2 which is the greatest.

 

DA:I crap compared to DA:O which is the greatest.

 

You can see this with another RPG franchise I enjoy The elder scrolls.

 

Morrowind crap compared to Daggerfall. people went on and on how it was a sellout to the graphics crowd and you could see how this hurt the game with its tiny dungeons.

 

Skyrim is crap compared to Morrowind which magically became the best Bethesda game ever.

 

I believe this trend is so prevalent because people want to appear discerning and wise so they bash the current game to appear as though their tastes are refine and discerning while those that like the current game are plebs who don't know any better.

 

obviously people have different tastes so not everyone agrees which game is the best but time and time again this type of pattern emerges.

[Andrew Lucas]

Fear not my friend, in the end, we probably won't get another starbrat. That elevates the game to a 11/10 for me.

[AlanC9]

@ Gothfather: sometimes this stuff is right, though. Skyrim really was crap compared to Morrowind.

[Gothfather]

The thing is that consumers (aka us) are not viewing size of game as positive. There is dissonance between players and marketers and it really feels like marketers are not getting it. The more they keep saying how big the game is and how much there is to explore the more worried consumers are going to be about the game.

 

And there is reasons to assume ME:A is not going to be that good. DAI is one of them, marketing is another. I'll wait and see, but I won't jump on hype train.

No that is utterly false.

 

MANY customers do view the size of a game as a positive just because YOU don't doesn't magically turn the market into your vision. Open world games have becoming more and more successful with consumers it is something the market wants.

 

Is it something that all consumers want? No but nothing is. Open world IS a selling point to many gamers. In the RPG genre the top three AAA studios all produced a open world title to record sale for each of the respected studios. Bioware with DA:I which was a critical and finacial success even if YOU and other didn't like it that doesn't again magically change the fact that it was financially successful and it won many awards. The same is true of CDPR's Witcher 3. It was their best selling game to date and won many awards. Finally Bethesda just had a record unit sales with Fallout 4 and it won a lot of awards this past awards season.

 

You are lying to yourself if you think the market doesn't like large games when the last three games with an open world from a AAA RPG developer were huge successes. You likes are not synonymous of the likes and wants of the market. Nor are mine I don't like shooters yet obviously there is a large market for them. You don't like open world but obviously there is a market for them. And don't let confirmation bias fool you, you may think vast numbers of gamers agree with your position but that is confirmation bias at work sales figures and gamers' choice awards are far better evidence of what the market and gamers think than post on a forum.

[Gothfather]

@ Gothfather: sometimes this stuff is right, though. Skyrim really was crap compared to Morrowind.

 

No it isn't. Morrowind is only crap compared to skyrim in YOUR opinion. There is no objective measure of subjective taste. Personally i enjoyed Skyrim better than Morrowind. In fact I found morrowind meh. I never found it all that great of a game. In fact I enjoyed oblivion better than Morrowwind. I have nostalgic bias in favour of Daggerfall over morrowind as well, but I am suspect of that opinion. I suspect if I played Daggerfall and morrowind back to back today i would enjoy morrowind better, but my memories of Daggerfall are more positive than morrowind's. But these are only MY subjective opinions about the last 4 elder scrolls games then are not objectively true, they are simply subjectively true as in these are my true opinions. I even pointed out that peoples' tastes are different so your best might be different from other peopl'es but that doesn't invalidate the pattern or trend.

 

obviously people have different tastes so not everyone agrees which game is the best but time and time again this type of pattern emerges.

 

I rate skyrim as Bethesda's best TES game because I have spent more time playing this TES game then all their past ones combined. For myself longevity of a game is one of the best indicators of how good a game is, because it is good enough for me to continue to return to it. It is why I think DA2 is bioware's worse game, I only played it to the end twice (once if you include DLCs ) and only made 5 characters of which only 3 made it out of the 1st chapter.

 

I believe that when TES 6 comes out that people will start calling it crap but comparing it to skyrim vs. morrowind. I do believe that people will still compare it to morrowind as even today on the Bioware forums people still say the BG series was the best even though DA:O is the game people usually cite as the best, but i think more people will compare it to skyrim. I will grant this is just a belief and we will have to wait and see but given how popular skyrim was and how many gamers' choice awards it won I think it will be the next benchmark used to show how all the current games are shite.

[Panda]

No that is utterly false.

 

MANY customers do view the size of a game as a positive just because YOU don't doesn't magically turn the market into your vision. Open world games have becoming more and more successful with consumers it is something the market wants.

 

Is it something that all consumers want? No but nothing is. Open world IS a selling point to many gamers. In the RPG genre the top three AAA studios all produced a open world title to record sale for each of the respected studios. Bioware with DA:I which was a critical and finacial success even if YOU and other didn't like it that doesn't again magically change the fact that it was financially successful and it won many awards. The same is true of CDPR's Witcher 3. It was their best selling game to date and won many awards. Finally Bethesda just had a record unit sales with Fallout 4 and it won a lot of awards this past awards season.

 

You are lying to yourself if you think the market doesn't like large games when the last three games with an open world from a AAA RPG developer were huge successes. You likes are not synonymous of the likes and wants of the market. Nor are mine I don't like shooters yet obviously there is a large market for them. You don't like open world but obviously there is a market for them. And don't let confirmation bias fool you, you may think vast numbers of gamers agree with your position but that is confirmation bias at work sales figures and gamers' choice awards are far better evidence of what the market and gamers think than post on a forum.

 

Open world itself is not bad thing I'm not saying that. FO4 is great game- although still buggy as heck. Bethesda is known for open world games that they do relatively well. Bioware is not and they did not do it well, they did it in expense of what they do well. In terms of Bioware they have already proven that size and open world is bad thing and they should focus on convincing players that they actually have meaningful content in this huge size of game than how big it is.

 

And I'm talking about customers here aka us as people who play Bioware games. Not customers of Bethesda, Projekt Red etc. The truth is that marketing team of Bioware is not listening anything coming from Bioware's customers, maybe they are trying to just attract more and more people, but I wonder how they are going to keep the people stay if they keep marketing things that are seen as negative to those who played DAI.

[correctamundo]

@ Gothfather: sometimes this stuff is right, though. Skyrim really was crap compared to Morrowind.

 

I have to respectfully disagree with that one. Not that Morrowind was bad or anything, but from my point of view, when I look back at the stories I've spun with Skyrim.

 

[straykat]

I have to respectfully disagree with that one. Not that Morrowind was bad or anything, but from my point of view, when I look back at the stories I've spun with Skyrim.

 

 

For some reason, I'm curious about these stories of yours.

 

I played Morrowind and Skyrim pretty vanilla. Dovahkiin was a Nord hero. Nerevarine was a dark elf.... but I had a psychotic Argonian at first.

[correctamundo]

For some reason, I'm curious about these stories of yours.

 

I played Morrowind and Skyrim pretty vanilla. Dovahkiin was a Nord hero. Nerevarine was a dark elf.... but I had a psychotic Argonian at first.

 

Dovahkin: Nord, Nord, Breton, Dunmer, Bosmer.

Nerevarine: Bosmer, Orsimer.

 

None are vanilla really. My Dunmer suffers from a personality disorder, somewhat more than the usual murder hobo of TES ;-) But anyway, since you can make your pick from so many quests in different order, as well as the possibilties witihin the modded world of Skyrim are nearly endless. With Skyrim the sky really is the limit.

[straykat]

Dovahkin: Nord, Nord, Breton, Dunmer, Bosmer.

Nerevarine: Bosmer, Orsimer.

 

None are vanilla really. My Dunmer suffers from a personality disorder, somewhat more than the usual murder hobo of TES ;-) But anyway, since you can make your pick from so many quests in different order, as well as the possibilties witihin the modded world of Skyrim are nearly endless. With Skyrim the sky really is the limit.

 

I only played Skyrim once. I suppose I did the quest orders fairly straightforward too. Went from Whiterun to the Greybeards and all that. That was actually well done. They combined their story well with the whole emergent/environmental thing. It took forever for my Nord to get to the Greybeards. I got derailed and attacked so much. By the end, it felt like I entered the 36 Chambers of Shaolin. Pretty rewarding.

[Gothfather]

Open world itself is not bad thing I'm not saying that. FO4 is great game- although still buggy as heck. Bethesda is known for open world games that they do relatively well. Bioware is not and they did not do it well, they did it in expense of what they do well. In terms of Bioware they have already proven that size and open world is bad thing and they should focus on convincing players that they actually have meaningful content in this huge size of game than how big it is.

 

And I'm talking about customers here aka us as people who play Bioware games. Not customers of Bethesda, Projekt Red etc. The truth is that marketing team of Bioware is not listening anything coming from Bioware's customers, maybe they are trying to just attract more and more people, but I wonder how they are going to keep the people stay if they keep marketing things that are seen as negative to those who played DAI.

 

oh for frak sake.

 

Bioware hasn't proven that at all. You are so fraking enamoured with your OWN opinion that you can't see that you don't hold a majority opinion. Most people LIKE DA:I how do we know? Sales and accolades, record sales and several gamers' choice awards show that GAMERS like the bloody game. Just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean most people don't like it. Just because you hold an opinion doesn't magically make it correct, accurate or even representative of anything but your subjective views.

 

I personally enjoyed the open world aspect of DA:I and lots of people do. I know that you have been told this by lots of posters on the forums because you keep spouting this BS narrative that we Bioware fans don't like DA:I and you keep being told by posters that they don't share your opinion. So stop trying to present your subjective opinions are representative of Bioware fans, they aren't.

 

Bioware is listening to their fans, they simply are not listening to you. I have complained about their small zones since Kotor. I complained about their terrible combat system in Origins or rather the ability to use the tactics system to set things up start a fight, leave to make coffee return to pick up the loot. Any game that can play itself is poorly designed. I complained about DA2 terrible combat system, and repetitive zones and none tactical combat. What did I get for DA:I? I got a tactics system that is LIMITED thank god and a combat system that is enjoyable in a zones that finally feel like large areas not tiny hallways outside. They also haven't listen to me since I said that Me2-3, DA2 and DA:I should bring back the ability to initiate a conversation with your companion while on the road not just at designated spots at your base/ship. Bioware listens to their fans they just don't say yes all the time to every opinion. And why should they? Gamers don't have one set of opinions they often like mutually exclusive things so it isn't possible to please us as some of use will ALWAYS be left out in the cold. For years that was me with these crappy little zones now i am getting larger open zones, now it is you stop trying to claim you speak for us all. You don't.

 

Do I think Bioware is the best at open world? No it was their first attempt and I expect them to get better just like I Bethesda with a voiced protagonist. Bethesda did a fair job for their first attempt at adding voice to their protagonist in FO4 just because it wasn't the best on their first attempt doesn't mean they failed only that they have to improve.

 

Hey some of the Bioware fans who don't like open world games will leave WHO THE FRAK CARES? I use to be a huge blizzard fan and played their games and now I don't. So fraking what. I don't think Blizzard is a bad company or that they don't listen to their fans i just believe they make games i don't like any more. They have new fans to replace me so what? Bioware will lose fans every new game. i know people who won't play bioware games because they no longer make BG style games. It is the nature of business. When a company never changes for fear of losing their fans it withers and dies. Only by trying new things to attract new customers does a company survive, the reason is that not every old fan will hate the new direction. You do, I don't so fraking what. Do what i did with blizzard move on. If bioware is no longer making games you like move on, but stop trying to cage this as bioware is not listening to their fans or that all their old fans are going to leave. We aren't.

[straykat]

Do you have numbers for these sales? It didn't even hit the NPD charts. I could make some room for digital sales not being counted, but that's still pretty lame. Especially for the budget a game like DAI requires. Witcher 3 made the charts 2 months in a row and it cost 80 million. I'm pretty sure DAI cost more and made less.

 

All that matters are numbers. Not industry awards or fluffy slogans that EA puts out in press releases. And I know you know this. I think you're fairly intelligent...so I'm not trying to be patronizing.

 

On a sidenote, go to an outside forum and DAI gets ridiculed plenty. I mean, like the offtopic section in an exercise forum or something. Anything. There aren't droves of people praising it.

[themikefest]

I like DAI. I just recently bought a ps4 and the game of the year edition. What a difference. Enjoying the game even more.

[straykat]

I like DAI. I just recently bought a ps4 and the game of the year edition. What a difference. Enjoying the game even more.

 

What did you play on before?

[themikefest]

What did you play on before?

ps3

[straykat]

ps3

 

I don't blame you.

 

Funnily, I was really stoked to get DAI.. I was a huge DA fan. And bought an XOne a few months before release, mostly because of it.

 

But I turned out to be a hater... even when I tried not to be.

[themikefest]

I don't blame you.

 

Funnily, I was really stoked to get DAI.. I was a huge DA fan. And bought an XOne a few months before release, mostly because of it.

 

But I turned out to be a hater... even when I tried not to be.

I would've bought a ps4 if the game wasn't going to be available for the ps3. It was. The main reason I bought the new console is for the upcoming Uncharted 4 game. Big fan of the Uncharted games

[straykat]

I would've bought a ps4 if the game wasn't going to be available for the ps3. It was. The main reason I bought the new console is for the upcoming Uncharted 4 game. Big fan of the Uncharted games

 

Yeah, I had the first one on PS3... but bought a PS4 recently too and got the Uncharted collection.

[Grieving Natashina]

I'm not worried at this point. Sure, there was elements of the more open world aspect of DA:I that I didn't care for, but it didn't make it a bad game for me. I felt like the DA team might have over compensated for the lack of exploring in both ME3 and DA2. Shoot, the lack of music was more jarring than most of the fetch quests. For those that have seen my rants on that front, no I'm not letting that go. That much silence was a real immersion breaker for me. <glare>

Anyway, I'd still prefer fewer zones/planets with the sidequests tying into the main plot better. For instance, I liked the fetch quests in the Crossroads. They were minor typical "collect 20 bear butt" type quests, but it tied into the main story of the zone and the rest of the game nicely.

I think the ME team has the right idea. The devs have been pretty smart and keep things quiet. I was around for the entirety of DA:I's development and there was (and still is) a lot of accusations of outright lying based on things like leaked footage. I'm sure we'll finally hear more at E3 Eplay, which is only about 3 months away. Then the Chicken Littles of the forums can have something concrete to stress and argue and beat to death. I'm actually looking forward to it, because at least it's something other than survey leaks and speculation to talk about.

Besides, I haven't heard or seen much marketing for the game at all yet. Well, other than it exists and it'll be out probably by early next year. I loved ME2 and DA:I and really enjoyed ME3, so I think that helps. I know there is a lot of folks on the forums that feel burned by BW after ME3 and DA:I, and I don't blame them. Still, isn't it just a bit early to stress over marketing hype?