238 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

DAI's amount of cinematic dialogue is so little that I think hyperbole is justifies, but yes they should raise the ratio to what it was which was majority of dialogue (90%>) when now it's like.. 5%, probably not even that.

 

Yes, I guess that's even more worrying than DAI failing. Cause DAI did succeed in sales which means that EA can just keep marketing empty words and Bioware can keep making empty maps without noticing any problems.

 

I'd be curious to see the results if someone took all unique cut scene dialogue from Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3, DA:O and DA2 and compared it to Inquisition's to see the actual runtime, because it seems to me that Inquisition has just as much if not more so, but also has plenty more companion dialogue heaped on top of that outside of special animation sequences, some of which can be at length, especially with Solas, Dorian and Cassandra. 

[correctamundo]

I'd be curious to see the results if someone took all unique cut scene dialogue from Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3, DA:O and DA2 and compared it to Inquisition's to see the actual runtime, because it seems to me that Inquisition has just as much if not more so, but also has plenty more companion dialogue heaped on top of that outside of special animation sequences, some of which can be at length, especially with Solas, Dorian and Cassandra. 

 

There was a somewhat recent discussion about that in the DAI-section. I'm not going to search for the post but some forumite had done the rundown and it was apparently more cinematic in DAI than DAO and DAII. DAI is big game however so the proportion is probably lower.

[Panda]

Cinematic conversations were never anywhere near 90%. They were never even near 50%. It's fine if you prefer being zoomed into speaking, expressionless faces, but call it what it is.

 

That's what they are about though and yes I very much prefer zooming into conversation over rolling camera in every conversation cause you try to get at least somewhat close to characters when they speak to you. And yes it was near 90%, majority of conversations were cinematic in ME games and DAO&DA2.

[Panda]

Hold on. DA:I had a lot of cinematic dialogue, as did DA2. There's a difference between cinematic (i.e., the kind of mimicry of film and TV camera work) that you get in the cutscenes in certain major parts of the game, and a dialogue-zoomed in camera. DA:O used the same camera as KoTOR. We called it "cinematic" because I think that's the buzzword they pushed with KoTOR but even with ME, a lot of the dialogue wasn't actually "cinematic". Occasionally it was, but this was rare. 

 

If camera soon close and you get to see expressions of the person you are spoken to it's cinematic in my books. When the camera is hovering over characters and they are doing repeating animations regardless of the topic it's not cinematic.

[pdusen]

That's what they are about though and yes I very much prefer zooming into conversation over rolling camera in every conversation cause you try to get at least somewhat close to characters when they speak to you. And yes it was near 90%, majority of conversations were cinematic in ME games and DAO&DA2.

 

Nope, they had plenty of zoomed-in conversations, but actual cinematic conversations weren't anywhere near as prevalent as you're claiming here.

 

You're being disingenuous by conflating the two concepts.

 

 

If camera soon close and you get to see expressions of the person you are spoken to it's cinematic in my books. When the camera is hovering over characters and they are doing repeating animations regardless of the topic it's not cinematic.

 

Except the vast majority of those conversations that you insist on calling "cinematic" had no facial expressions at all, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

[AlanC9]

I suppose the argument can be saved if the goal is to have the illusion of seeing expressions. Looking at the NPC in the cinematic camera angle you'd figure that you'd have to be seeing an expression, so your brain would just fill one in.

One of the hallmarks of recent Bio designs is that they don't seem to be willing to traffic in illusions. After a ME3 mission there's only enough wordcount committed to give the squadmates a couple of one-liners, so the game just has them say the lines rather than pretending that there's an actual interactive conversation there.

[AlanC9]

Then why complain about it, if it has no effect on you in the first place? Am I not permitted to post videos; seriously what's the problem? Prime example of the arrogance around here. You have a "never watch" policy and everyone has to know about it how about criticize what I'm posting about, instead of criticizing how I go about formatting it. But I'm truly sorry for the lack of paragraphs in my response offending you.

I was questioning the efficiency of the communication strategy. I've seen people play "I believe X; I can't really articulate why X is true but this other guy can explain it, if you'll just sit through a video." Do people who don't find X plausible sit through the video?

I'll criticize your actual arguments about the game when you make them yourself instead of outsourcing them. I only mentioned that I didn't watch the video because you replied and suggested not watching it. If you don't want to talk about stuff, talking about that stuff isn't a useful approach.

[straykat]

One of the hallmarks of recent Bio designs is that they don't seem to be willing to traffic in illusions. After a ME3 mission there's only enough wordcount committed to give the squadmates a couple of one-liners, so the game just has them say the lines rather than pretending that there's an actual interactive conversation there.

 

Is that why they did it?

 

I thought it was just Mac Walters.. even his interactive dialogue in ME1/2 kind of sucked. Garrus and Wrex never said much to begin with. And Zaeed was completely non-interactive. I figured Walters thought he was doing something "brilliant" and tainted the rest of ME3 that way once he became lead. lol

[SlottsMachine]

The video is mainly about some guy that will not buy ME:A because of Manveer Heir association to it. I personally do not care about the personal beliefs of a creator, the quality of there works is all I care about.

[10K]

I was questioning the efficiency of the communication strategy. I've seen people play "I believe X; I can't really articulate why X is true but this other guy can explain it, if you'll just sit through a video." Do people who don't find X plausible sit through the video?I'll criticize your actual arguments about the game when you make them yourself instead of outsourcing them. I only mentioned that I didn't watch the video because you replied and suggested not watching it. If you don't want to talk about stuff, talking about that stuff isn't a useful approach.

So obviously you didn't read my entire post. You saw the video and flew of the handle. I did in fact state an argument; Diversity for the sake of diversity. I stated how shallow this made characters and how it hurt storyline.

So like I said, take time to actually criticize the argument not the format. It ridiculous.

[Gothfather]

You seem quite fixated that my comment is based on just my own views when it's not, it's biggest criticism DAI got (well technical problems and bugginess was biggest, but after patches). I do agree that EA can sell well with marketing these words of "size", "exploring" and "open world" without actually promising big maps of the game to have any kind of substance in them.

 

And YOU can like DAI all you want, but don't be delusional with it. Bioware didn't need to get so fixated on open worldness and size of  the game that they forgot what they do best. For example there was no need to get rid of cinematic dialogue- Bethesda has it with FO4 even if they have open world game, but I guess Bioware just overcompensated after criticism of DA2 and forgot what was great about that game.  Rather than that they could have expanded maps without doing tons of empty space and without losing important elements of the game.

 

WTF? You blame open world design on Bioware switching to a lower ratio of "cinematic" dialogue? What? Do you know what causation is and what correlation is? How the frak do you get causation from open world design to dialogue changes?

 

I mean your rational makes no sense, I could just as easily take to separate things and make the claim of causation, tigers are not a problem in Canada, I personally fart daily. Ergo my farts have a direct causation in keeping tigers from being a problem in Canada. That obviously ridiculous statement is just as ridiculous as blaming open world design on dialogue camera angle changes.  

 

I mean i get people having an opinion of wanting or liking "cinematic" camera in games, hell TES IV Oblivion has a close up camera for conversations that Skyrim lacked and there was a mod that was made to bring it back. People like different things in games so makes sense people liked that style of camera angles. But no one claimed this change in camera angles for skyrim was cause by Bethesda removing Attributes from their game. Why? because those are two UNRELATED features. Open world design is unrelated to dialogue camera angles. Unless you have any compelling evidence to show that these two features are connected.

 

I mean i have read some tin foil hat crazy conspiracies on the BSN but this is up there in the top ten.

[Panda]

WTF? You blame open world design on Bioware switching to a lower ratio of "cinematic" dialogue? What? Do you know what causation is and what correlation is? How the frak do you get causation from open world design to dialogue changes?

 

I mean your rational makes no sense, I could just as easily take to separate things and make the claim of causation, tigers are not a problem in Canada, I personally fart daily. Ergo my farts have a direct causation in keeping tigers from being a problem in Canada. That obviously ridiculous statement is just as ridiculous as blaming open world design on dialogue camera angle changes.  

 

I mean i get people having an opinion of wanting or liking "cinematic" camera in games, hell TES IV Oblivion has a close up camera for conversations that Skyrim lacked and there was a mod that was made to bring it back. People like different things in games so makes sense people liked that style of camera angles. But no one claimed this change in camera angles for skyrim was cause by Bethesda removing Attributes from their game. Why? because those are two UNRELATED features. Open world design is unrelated to dialogue camera angles. Unless you have any compelling evidence to show that these two features are connected.

 

I mean i have read some tin foil hat crazy conspiracies on the BSN but this is up there in the top ten.

 

Huge size of the maps and open worlds drains resources from other stuff. Or do you think those don't take time and resources to make that could be used somewhere they were used in earlier DA games?

[Gileadan]

DA:I and Open World? That's likely something the marketing yo-yos at EA blurted out when they first saw the game. It plays more like it was originally designed to be a MMO, with huge combat-oriented maps, respawning enemies and the occasional pit-stop zone, repeatable collection quests and static NPCs for side quests. Then the whole thing was quickly hammered into single-player shape.

 

It seems fairly obvious that non-companion, non-main quest conversations were not very high on their list of priorities. It's not just the lack of a zoom-in camera or meaningful gestures and facial expressions, it's the whole thing that looks sloppy. NPCs can initiate conversations if you approach them and then walk out of range and interrupt themselves if you don't chase them between replies, your companions can walk in circles while you talk and bump into people and such, and side quests conversations overall are often limited to "Hello unknown person who walked into my house and looted my chest, did I tell you about my problem?" - "No, what is your problem?" - "This is my problem."

 

Sure doesn't look like those were a priority of any sort.

[straykat]

DA:I and Open World? That's likely something the marketing yo-yos at EA blurted out when they first saw the game. It plays more like it was originally designed to be a MMO, with huge combat-oriented maps, respawning enemies and the occasional pit-stop zone, repeatable collection quests and static NPCs for side quests. Then the whole thing was quickly hammered into single-player shape.

 

It seems fairly obvious that non-companion, non-main quest conversations were not very high on their list of priorities. It's not just the lack of a zoom-in camera or meaningful gestures and facial expressions, it's the whole thing that looks sloppy. NPCs can initiate conversations if you approach them and then walk out of range and interrupt themselves if you don't chase them between replies, your companions can walk in circles while you talk and bump into people and such, and side quests conversations overall are often limited to "Hello unknown person who walked into my house and looted my chest, did I tell you about my problem?" - "No, what is your problem?" - "This is my problem."

 

Sure doesn't look like those were a priority of any sort.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

This shouldn't be defended. Not by Bioware fans at least. I'm sure it's got it's uses...somewhere else. Maybe.

[Han Shot First]

The video is mainly about some guy that will not buy ME:A because of Manveer Heir association to it. I personally do not care about the personal beliefs of a creator, the quality of there works is all I care about.

 

Pretty much.

 

There are a couple hundred people involved in the development of Andromeda in one form or another. No matter where you fall on the political spectrum, there are a guaranteed to be a few people making the game who have political views you don't agree with.

 

He is also a gameplay designer. People losing their **** about stupid stuff he's said on Twitter are making much ado about nothing. He's not writing the story.

[The Elder King]

It's as simple as that.

This shouldn't be defended. Not by Bioware fans at least. I'm sure it's got it's uses...somewhere else. Maybe.

People seem to forget that many side quests in Bioware's games aren't exactly the pinnacle of writing. DA2 and ME3 were already full of fetch quests, and they weren't open world games.
I do think the situation was worsened by the size of DAI, and hope that they improve on this in MEA, but it wasn't exactly something new.

[straykat]

People seem to forget that many side quests in Bioware's games aren't exactly the pinnacle of writing. DA2 and ME3 were already full of fetch quests, and they weren't open world games.
I do think the situation was worsened by the size of DAI, and hope that they improve on this in MEA, but it wasn't exactly something new.

 

True enough.

 

Although DA2 had it's share of side quests that were narrative driven too. And spanned across the acts. Like you could do part of your Mother's/Last Sacrifice quest with that Emeric dude in Act 1. Merrill's stuff was optional too.

 

I guess you could call those side quests..

[The Elder King]

True enough.

 

Although DA2 had it's share of side quests that were narrative driven too. And spanned across the acts. Like you could do part of your Mother's/Last Sacrifice quest with that Emeric dude in Act 1. Merrill's stuff was optional too.

 

I guess you could call those side quests..

I didn't mean every side quests in DA2 were fetch quest, just that many were.

[AppealToReason]

In a word?




Cerberus.

 

Oh my god is this for real...?

[AlanC9]

So obviously you didn't read my entire post. You saw the video and flew of the handle. I did in fact state an argument; Diversity for the sake of diversity. I stated how shallow this made characters and how it hurt storyline.
So like I said, take time to actually criticize the argument not the format. It ridiculous.

Don't be ridiculous. What actually happened was that I saw the video, thought "yeah, another dopey video; no way I'm wasting time on that" and made a post to that effect. Then you responded, and we've kept that conversation going. In what universe is that considered "flying off the handle"?

I consider the presentation of arguments to be a legitimate topic of debate. That's why I occasionally talk about the topic. If you don't think presentation is an interesting topic, again, you don't have to keep talking about the topic.

[AlanC9]

The video is mainly about some guy that will not buy ME:A because of Manveer Heir association to it. I personally do not care about the personal beliefs of a creator, the quality of there works is all I care about.

Wait... you mean that vid was Gamergate trash all along?

[UniformGreyColor]

This thread is an "OMG bioware is doing something i don't like" thread, and it is trying to cage DA:I's failure as proof it is the wrong approach, yet there isn't even a consensus that DA:I was a failure like can be said with DA2 (which isn't to say it failed for all people many people like that game with each passing year DA2 gets more popular lol.) hence the conflict.

 

You could not be more wrong when you said this. I have adamantly and vehemently defended DA:I on many occasions. The op is not suppose to draw DA:I as a reference and it shouldn't. Furthermore, this thread has little to do with how BW is messing things up, and it actually puts most of the blame on marketing as opposed to the devs for this game; I tried to make that clear, but some people just can not get it no matter how blatantly you try and put it.

[UniformGreyColor]

DA:I and Open World? That's likely something the marketing yo-yos at EA blurted out when they first saw the game. It plays more like it was originally designed to be a MMO, with huge combat-oriented maps, respawning enemies and the occasional pit-stop zone, repeatable collection quests and static NPCs for side quests. Then the whole thing was quickly hammered into single-player shape.

 

It seems fairly obvious that non-companion, non-main quest conversations were not very high on their list of priorities. It's not just the lack of a zoom-in camera or meaningful gestures and facial expressions, it's the whole thing that looks sloppy. NPCs can initiate conversations if you approach them and then walk out of range and interrupt themselves if you don't chase them between replies, your companions can walk in circles while you talk and bump into people and such, and side quests conversations overall are often limited to "Hello unknown person who walked into my house and looted my chest, did I tell you about my problem?" - "No, what is your problem?" - "This is my problem."

 

Sure doesn't look like those were a priority of any sort.

 

Please make available the original source where DA:I was in such words "DA:I is just an MMO in single player" or don't use the reference, thanks.

[straykat]

Please make available the original source where DA:I was in such words "DA:I is just an MMO in single player" or don't use the reference, thanks.

 

They had planned on an MMO at first.

 

http://www.gamespot....y/1100-6423362/

[UniformGreyColor]

They had planned on an MMO at first.

 

http://www.gamespot....y/1100-6423362/

 

Thanks for providing this information.