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[Zero]

Is wrong to kill Alistair. Always will be wrong doing it, whatever your point of view.

 

There was a Blight, and we know Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill an Archdemon. Killing one the active Grey Wardens in Ferelden (whether he said "he left the Order" because he got childish and PIS) is one of the stupid decisions you can take in DA:O. We should have been allowed to have both Loghain and Alistair as a Grey Wardens, if you cared about a traitor who left his king to die (mostly because said king could possibly dump his daughter for some orlesian empress), sent assassins to kill me, released a dangerous criminal and sent him to kill a powerful noble, plunged the country into a civil war in the middle of a monster invasion just because imagined fears, and sold people as slaves. 

 

Now, is justice? Neither. Alistair deserted and that is punishable by death, yeah, but the game makes clear that his execution is never for that reason. He can be killed only because Anora considered him a threat to her rule. 

 

Now, is correct? Well, that depend entirely on your point of view. Some people here have had given some excellent reasons why Alistair would die, and I won't be repeating that.

 

In my case, Loghain's crimes are more heavy than Alistair's tears or Anora's political shenanigans. And in the case of my canon HoF, more personal as well.

[HeliosDisciple]

It is somewhat odd how many people will spare Loghain because "more Wardens = better than" but kill Alistair in the same segment.

 

Whatever his tears or words, he's still a Warden. It isn't something that can be renounced. He even gets killed before Loghain undergoes the Joining, which is insanely stupid on everybody's account.

 

"Hrm yes, let's kill one of the three Wardens in Ferelden during a Blight. This is a well-reasoned action."

[congokong]

Legally, perhaps right, although you cannot actually state this is the reason for his execution.

 

Morally, very wrong. Of course, the Grey Wardens in general are immoral IMO.

[VivainaDX]

I am not as vexed with Arnora but I definitely see your point.  And with all respect, I think calling Alastair only "quite annoying" is a very mild term for it.  I can't really see him with Morrigan though.  Good heavens, he would be a frog in no time at all.

LOL...'vexed' is too mild of a word, enraged, is more like it...and I carry a grudge when not only am I outed at the Howe estate but get famboozled at the Landsmeet, that's 2 strikes, I'm not giving her a third chance to mess me over...she's going down! I guess Alister's walking away and his pissy behavior doesn't bug me as much because I raised teenagers.  At least, on the whole, Alister was a compassionate guy, immature and pouty at times, but still decent. And Anora wanting him executed before he could fight the darkspawn showed she was more concerned about her position than she was about the approaching threat. I'd say that's poor leadership skills that there is no justification for.

[DDJ]

LOL...'vexed' is too mild of a word, enraged, is more like it...and I carry a grudge when not only am I outed at the Howe estate but get famboozled at the Landsmeet, that's 2 strikes, I'm not giving her a third chance to mess me over...she's going down! I guess Alister's walking away and his pissy behavior doesn't bug me as much because I raised teenagers.  At least, on the whole, Alister was a compassionate guy, immature and pouty at times, but still decent. And Anora wanting him executed before he could fight the darkspawn showed she was more concerned about her position than she was about the approaching threat. I'd say that's poor leadership skills that there is no justification for.

 

As always I respect your opinion.  You have a higher regard from him than I do.  The whole game I felt like I was doing his work for him while he remained rather amoral.

[Zero]

LOL...'vexed' is too mild of a word, enraged, is more like it...and I carry a grudge when not only am I outed at the Howe estate but get famboozled at the Landsmeet, that's 2 strikes, I'm not giving her a third chance to mess me over...she's going down! I guess Alister's walking away and his pissy behavior doesn't bug me as much because I raised teenagers.  At least, on the whole, Alister was a compassionate guy, immature and pouty at times, but still decent. And Anora wanting him executed before he could fight the darkspawn showed she was more concerned about her position than she was about the approaching threat. I'd say that's poor leadership skills that there is no justification for.

 

 

I'm only regret they didn't gave us the option to kill Anora. Not because I was to kill her (nothing personal against her), but because that option should have been existed in DA:O. Like, you can kill Alistair for him being a threat to Anora's rule, you should have been able to kill her for the same reason. 

[VivainaDX]

As always I respect your opinion.  You have a higher regard from him than I do.  The whole game I felt like I was doing his work for him while he remained rather amoral.

Oh, I understand that! He was the senior warden after all and he dumped all the decisions onto you, while coming across as self-centered and cocky...which he was, but I think it was more out of insecurity than it was out of selfishness. There seemed to be a vulnerability to him that he hid behind his bravado, I guess that's why I had more patience with him...even if he did need a smack upside the head once in awhile. 

[VivainaDX]

I'm only regret they didn't gave us the option to kill Anora. Not because I was to kill her (nothing personal against her), but because that option should have been existed in DA:O. Like, you can kill Alistair for him being a threat to Anora's rule, you should have been able to kill her for the same reason. 

Yes, there should've been, I thought there was, but I guess not, or I just play it wrong. And yes, there should be a balance for that, if he's a threat to/she's a threat to him and either one should be available for execution, but since Alister won't allow it...oh well. I could've sworn the option was there. 

[DDJ]

Oh, I understand that! He was the senior warden after all and he dumped all the decisions onto you, while coming across as self-centered and cocky...which he was, but I think it was more out of insecurity than it was out of selfishness. There seemed to be a vulnerability to him that he hid behind his bravado, I guess that's why I had more patience with him...even if he did need a smack upside the head once in awhile. 

 

Only once in awhile?  

[VivainaDX]

Only once in awhile?  

At least he could handle himself in a fight and he was quite brave at times, and I don't recall him malicious or cruel, just petulant and whiney. He was a likable sort.

[DDJ]

At least he could handle himself in a fight and he was quite brave at times, and I don't recall him malicious or cruel, just petulant and whiney. He was a likable sort.

 

Fair enough, but I do recall him talking about killing Zevran and Arl Eamon's son as solutions.  I do not, but it always bothered me that the Wardens and Alastair look to killing as a first resort.

[VivainaDX]

Ah, but he wanted to kill Zev because he thought Zev was a threat to the warden, he didn't trust the word of an assassin...understandable. With Connor, Alister was raised as a Templar and killing the abomination is the first and only Temple response to a possessed mage, that has nothing to do with the wardens.Mind you, he isn't happy in camp if you do kill Connor, which I thought was a bit unfair. 

[DDJ]

Ah, but he wanted to kill Zev because he thought Zev was a threat to the warden, he didn't trust the word of an assassin...understandable. With Connor, Alister was raised as a Templar and killing the abomination is the first and only Temple response to a possessed mage, that has nothing to do with the wardens.Mind you, he isn't happy in camp if you do kill Connor, which I thought was a bit unfair. 

 

True enough.  Again while I respect your thoughts, it just seems that time and again he offers killing as the solution and leaves the junior member of the order to do the work.  I also don't like the fact that he was a templar and did not want to be but if I say I don't want to be a Warden it is a - 10 approval.  Hypocritical.

[VivainaDX]

Shirking his senior warden duties, I agree completely, but I would say Sten, Morrigan and Zev were more apt to suggest violent or callus methods over Alister, Alister had a more compassionate side...Mind you, I found Sten, Morrigan and Zev easier to be around because they weren't as whiney. I think Alister resented the Templars partly because he was forced to join them when he was a kid and also he felt there methods were too harsh, I understand that, I can also see him feeling like Duncan taking him into the wardens was kind of like being rescued, Duncan and the wardens were kind of like saviors to him at the time, he was only six months into joining the order, his attitude may have changed in time had he of experienced more with them, but for the time being, I can understand his feelings of loyalty towards the wardens and being disapproving if there was an attitude put against them. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Is wrong to kill Alistair. Always will be wrong doing it, whatever your point of view.

 

There was a Blight, and we know Grey Wardens are the only ones who can kill an Archdemon. Killing one the active Grey Wardens in Ferelden (whether he said "he left the Order" because he got childish and PIS) is one of the stupid decisions you can take in DA:O. We should have been allowed to have both Loghain and Alistair as a Grey Wardens, if you cared about a traitor who left his king to die (mostly because said king could possibly dump his daughter for some orlesian empress), sent assassins to kill me, released a dangerous criminal and sent him to kill a powerful noble, plunged the country into a civil war in the middle of a monster invasion just because imagined fears, and sold people as slaves. 

 

Now, is justice? Neither. Alistair deserted and that is punishable by death, yeah, but the game makes clear that his execution is never for that reason. He can be killed only because Anora considered him a threat to her rule. 

 

Now, is correct? Well, that depend entirely on your point of view. Some people here have had given some excellent reasons why Alistair would die, and I won't be repeating that.

 

In my case, Loghain's crimes are more heavy than Alistair's tears or Anora's political shenanigans. And in the case of my canon HoF, more personal as well.

1)Loghain did well to left Cailan he saved thousands of lives that would have been sacrificed in vain for a stupid man.

2)He did well to poison that scum of Eamon.

3)He did well to fight against those who wanted to overtrow the throne after Cailan's death.

 

Only thing he did wrong was allow Tevinter soldiers in Denerim.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 And Anora wanting him executed before he could fight the darkspawn showed she was more concerned about her position than she was about the approaching threat. I'd say that's poor leadership skills that there is no justification for.

Anora wanted to kill AListair only after that he refused to serve as GW.

 

 

It is somewhat odd how many people will spare Loghain because "more Wardens = better than" but kill Alistair in the same segment.

 

Whatever his tears or words, he's still a Warden. It isn't something that can be renounced. He even gets killed before Loghain undergoes the Joining, which is insanely stupid on everybody's account.

 

"Hrm yes, let's kill one of the three Wardens in Ferelden during a Blight. This is a well-reasoned action."

 

He is not a GW but a deserter of the order.

[Zero]

 

1)Loghain did well to left Cailan he saved thousands of lives that would have been sacrificed in vain for a stupid man.

2)He did well to poison that scum of Eamon.

3)He did well to fight against those who wanted to overtrow the throne after Cailan's death.

 

Only thing he did wrong was allow Tevinter soldiers in Denerim.

 

 

1. Yet deserted the battlefield and left his king to die, to immediately after that take his throne, a throne he had no right to because his commoner origin. So, he did commited a crime (deserted the battlefield) and usurped the throne. That is still a crime even if done in the name of the greater good. 

 

2. Still, a crime against the nation, punishable by death. If you condemn Alistair for the crime of desertion, is a little... contradictory to defend Loghain for the crime of treason against his own country.

 

3. Was him the one who usurped the throne, not the nobles. If he really was the intelligent man the writer want we to believe he was, he would have left his daughter (rightful queen, from whom he also stole the throne under the name of "regency") rule the country, avoiding the Civil War.

 

Add to that the slavery stuff, and the guy deserved his death.

[VivainaDX]

Anora wanted to kill AListair only after that he refused to serve as GW.

 

 

I'm pretty sure I got it where she would've killed Alister if I hadn't stepped in and after she said that, I supported Alister.

And quite frankly, IMO, Logain was a deceitful power hungry tyrant who needed to go, he got what he deserved.

[DDJ]

Shirking his senior warden duties, I agree completely, but I would say Sten, Morrigan and Zev were more apt to suggest violent or callus methods over Alister, Alister had a more compassionate side...Mind you, I found Sten, Morrigan and Zev easier to be around because they weren't as whiney. I think Alister resented the Templars partly because he was forced to join them when he was a kid and also he felt there methods were too harsh, I understand that, I can also see him feeling like Duncan taking him into the wardens was kind of like being rescued, Duncan and the wardens were kind of like saviors to him at the time, he was only six months into joining the order, his attitude may have changed in time had he of experienced more with them, but for the time being, I can understand his feelings of loyalty towards the wardens and being disapproving if there was an attitude put against them. 

 

I agree with what you say, but it remains hypocritical in my mind.  That is not necessarily Alastair's fault since he speaks what BioWare commands, but couple with his very first response to me in the camp when I ask if there are any other things I should know about and he says other than dying young and fighting the Blight by yourself compared to later things where he tells me later such as oh yes, you'll become a ghoul and go crazy.  I didn't like the whining, but that took the cake in my view particularly since it usually comes up in my play throughs after I have killed the brood mother.  After that I started taking a very jaundiced view toward the wardens as a whole.

 

And yes, I really prefer my other companions to Alastair.  I never take him to fight the Archdemon.  Usually I am too angry by then.  I think part of it may be that the writers insist I must love the Wardens, and when you don't you really are getting their disapproval rating.  It is another reason I leave Stroud in the Fade.  He refuses to help with the Qunari business in DA2 because they are neutral.  Of course Sophia Dryden is also a Warden set to overthrow the king with her demon army and we all know Clarice had the same ideas when she had the sadly familiar idea, admittedly put to her by the Venatori, of raising yet another demon army.  Of course, any disapproval I have for these wonderful actions usually works against me as well although I am beyond caring what they (BioWare) wants me to do.

 

I do by the way give Blackwall to the Wardens in DAI.  He sincerely wants to join, and frankly they actually do have a right to judge him since he pretended to be one.  Plus his blind devotion to the cause aggravates me in that he does not see both sides nor, apparently, respect diverging views.

 

Ugh.  My dark world view again. 

[VivainaDX]

I agree with what you say, but it remains hypocritical in my mind.  That is not necessarily Alastair's fault since he speaks what BioWare commands, but couple with his very first response to me in the camp when I ask if there are any other things I should know about and he says other than dying young and fighting the Blight by yourself compared to later things where he tells me later such as oh yes, you'll become a ghoul and go crazy.  I didn't like the whining, but that took the cake in my view particularly since it usually comes up in my play throughs after I have killed the brood mother.  After that I started taking a very jaundiced view toward the wardens as a whole.

 

And yes, I really prefer my other companions to Alastair.  I never take him to fight the Archdemon.  Usually I am too angry by then.  I think part of it may be that the writers insist I must love the Wardens, and when you don't you really are getting their disapproval rating.  It is another reason I leave Stroud in the Fade.  He refuses to help with the Qunari business in DA2 because they are neutral.  Of course Sophia Dryden is also a Warden set to overthrow the king with her demon army and we all know Clarice had the same ideas when she had the sadly familiar idea, admittedly put to her by the Venatori, of raising yet another demon army.  Of course, any disapproval I have for these wonderful actions usually works against me as well although I am beyond caring what they (BioWare) wants me to do.

 

I do by the way give Blackwall to the Wardens in DAI.  He sincerely wants to join, and frankly they actually do have a right to judge him since he pretended to be one.  Plus his blind devotion to the cause aggravates me in that he does not see both sides nor, apparently, respect diverging views.

 

Ugh.  My dark world view again. 

I give Alister a little leeway because he's not the brightest bulb on the tree and credit his lack of full disclosure to be more from him being a rookie and forgetful on a matter he has pushed out of his mind, I don't think he was deliberately misleading.

 

As for the wardens, I pity them, their job is tough and they basically have nothing to look forward to, their fate is sealed. They live to fight a horrible enemy while they're slowly dying from the blight. I understand their isolation, it's hard to be amongst ordinary people who are able to go about there lives, while you yourself have no hope to live an normal life, it's easier if you close yourself off, surround yourself with those like you.and commit your existence to your duty. It's sad, really.

 

When you know you exist for only one purpose, you can become oblivious to other things because they aren't your target, that may come off as cold and uncaring, but if that were the case they would've abandoned their duty long ago. They know there're there to protect the world from the blight and they'll do it anyway possible.I can't fault them for their determination and I figure a good part of their bad judgement is caused by desperation and being so isolated has left them narrow minded.

 

I don't normally go through with Blackwall, I don't like his character but when have done his playthrough, I ended up giving him to the wardens too. My reasoning is he's a good fighter and the wardens would benefit from his experience, plus it seems fitting, given his past, to condem him to the life of a grey warden.

[DDJ]

I give Alister a little leeway because he's not the brightest bulb on the tree and credit his lack of full disclosure to be more from him being a rookie and forgetful on a matter he has pushed out of his mind, I don't think he was deliberately misleading.

 

As for the wardens, I pity them, their job is tough and they basically have nothing to look forward to, their fate is sealed. They live to fight a horrible enemy while they're slowly dying from the blight. I understand their isolation, it's hard to be amongst ordinary people who are able to go about there lives, while you yourself have no hope to live an normal life, it's easier if you close yourself off, surround yourself with those like you.and commit your existence to your duty. It's sad, really.

 

When you know you exist for only one purpose, you can become oblivious to other things because they aren't your target, that may come off as cold and uncaring, but if that were the case they would've abandoned their duty long ago. They know there're there to protect the world from the blight and they'll do it anyway possible.I can't fault them for their determination and I figure a good part of their bad judgement is caused by desperation and being so isolated has left them narrow minded.

 

I don't normally go through with Blackwall, I don't like his character but when have done his playthrough, I ended up giving him to the wardens too. My reasoning is he's a good fighter and the wardens would benefit from his experience, plus it seems fitting, given his past, to condem him to the life of a grey warden.

 

You are a nicer person than I am.  But, here is the way I look at it playing a female elf from the city, a conscript who does not like humans.  (I could go through them all but too long).  1 I am getting married and want to get married.  2  A human noble kidnaps me, murders my friend, rapes my cousin and I kill him to rescue her and escape.  3.  I am now forced unwillingly into the Wardens after Duncan implies that he is going to drag me away anyhow.  4  Alastair takes umbrage with the fact that I would like to have a life. 5  Duncan murders Jory who has a wife and child to keep the Wardens' secrets.  Then through the whole game I get to listen to Alastair whine, complain, beg favors, urge me to kill a child at Redcliff ad infinitum.  Then when I finally have all the armies raised he gives me the delightful news that he has withheld all this time that I am doomed to ghouldom or brood motherhood.  That is the family they plan for me.  Considering the fact that the Wardens willfully disregard what I want, murder me or worse with darkspawn blood, then tell me it is for life for crimes that I should not stand trial for, I think I have good reason to be angry.  That childishness at the Landsmeet is like the cream de la cream.  Of course, if you are the human noble Duncan refuses to help you escape unless you agree to be a Warden.  And of course after the victory comes the delightful news that the elven elder is murdered and the fact that the alienage is still not being rebuilt by good King Alastair.  (I got this last from using the world map in Witch Hunt.  The real tragedy comes when I do not even have the opportunity to kill Duncan.  I do not know it is a real blight after all.  So, sorry, but we have to agree to disagree on this.  Too much betrayal by the Wardens and others for my taste.

[VivainaDX]

Oh, I can see your point if you're playing a city elf, I went through that playthrough once, it was kind of difficult in places but it took a long time before I did play the elf, usually I was human, so I had already had set opinions on the characters. I really liked Duncan, but I can see your point with him too.  

[DDJ]

Oh, I can see your point if you're playing a city elf, I went through that playthrough once, it was kind of difficult in places but it took a long time before I did play the elf, usually I was human, so I had already had set opinions on the characters. I really liked Duncan, but I can see your point with him too.  

 

I usually like to play as an elf since they are generally treated like dirt by humans.  Masochism at its best!

[HeliosDisciple]

 2  A human noble kidnaps me, murders my friend, rapes my cousin and I kill him to rescue her and escape.  3.  I am now forced unwillingly into the Wardens after Duncan implies that he is going to drag me away anyhow. 4  Alastair takes umbrage with the fact that I would like to have a life

 

What life were you going to have after killing a noble? The 12 hours or so for them to build a hanging scaffold?

[Zero]

 That childishness at the Landsmeet is like the cream de la cream.  

 

So, since we are talking about the city elf, you condemn Alistair for being childish, but not Loghain for actually selling your father as a slave... I fail to see a point there.