224 réponses à ce sujet

[DDJ]

What life were you going to have after killing a noble? The 12 hours or so for them to build a hanging scaffold?

 

The point is that the elf is treated unfairly by humans then forced into a lifetime of war under a human commander.  What they offer is not life.  Willfully and with a whole heart they poison each and every conscript and recruit.  When asked what to do I always say I will find the Dalish.  Duncan says "I might be able to help etc" but he won't.  He can't of course because of plot armor.  However the characters don't know anything about plot armor, and so of course it is just another case of a powerful human abusing the elves if the elf is a human hater.

[DDJ]

So, since we are talking about the city elf, you condemn Alistair for being childish, but not Loghain for actually selling your father as a slave... I fail to see a point there.

 

Actually I do condemn Loghain.  I have never spared him either for condoning the massacre in the alienage or for running slaves.  DAI does try a bit to redeem him, but I can't see it.  So I execute him for those reasons, neither of which has anything to do with being a Warden.  Sorry, I did not mean to imply that I approve of Loghain.  Quite the contrary.  Apologies.

[VivainaDX]

I usually like to play as an elf since they are generally treated like dirt by humans.  Masochism at its best!

LOL! Yes! Taking the path of the masochist can either break you or teach you how to be obstinant and openly defiant...there are perks to being a whipping boy/girl, you learn quickly how to extend your tolerence level and come up with plans of revenge.  

[HeliosDisciple]

The point is that the elf is treated unfairly by humans then forced into a lifetime of war under a human commander.  What they offer is not life.  Willfully and with a whole heart they poison each and every conscript and recruit.  When asked what to do I always say I will find the Dalish.  Duncan says "I might be able to help etc" but he won't.  He can't of course because of plot armor.  However the characters don't know anything about plot armor, and so of course it is just another case of a powerful human abusing the elves if the elf is a human hater.

 

True enough. I admit I've never played an anti-Warden character, since having to fight the game's plot seems equal parts annoying and pointless (kinda like abandoning Redcliffe; you still wind up having to deal with their problems anyway).

[DDJ]

LOL! Yes! Taking the path of the masochist can either break you or teach you how to be obstinant and openly defiant...there are perks to being a whipping boy/girl, you learn quickly how to extend your tolerence level and come up with plans of revenge.  

 

Precisely, and the revenge that exists in my dark world view is infinitely satisfying as I ponder the dilemma the writers left themselves with.  

[Zero]

Actually I do condemn Loghain.  I have never spared him either for condoning the massacre in the alienage or for running slaves.  DAI does try a bit to redeem him, but I can't see it.  So I execute him for those reasons, neither of which has anything to do with being a Warden.  Sorry, I did not mean to imply that I approve of Loghain.  Quite the contrary.  Apologies.

 

Oh, don't worry. I just want to understand why you hate Alistair so much. But, using the city elf as an example brought some topics in the table. I don't understand why people will save Loghain or make Anora queen while playing as an elf, specially a city elf, regardless of what opinion that elf may have about Alistair.

[Zero]

LOL! Yes! Taking the path of the masochist can either break you or teach you how to be obstinant and openly defiant...there are perks to being a whipping boy/girl, you learn quickly how to extend your tolerence level and come up with plans of revenge.  

 

I played Awakening once as an orlesian elven mage just because of that. 

[DDJ]

Oh, don't worry. I just want to understand why you hate Alistair so much. But, using the city elf as an example brought some topics in the table. I don't understand why people will save Loghain or make Anora queen while playing as an elf, specially a city elf, regardless of what opinion that elf may have about Alistair.

 

I frankly never can spare Loghain.  Even if he did retreat from Ostagar for valid military reasons, selling the elves into slavery, condoning the butchery in the alienage, poisoning Arl Eamon and a host of other crimes put him way beyond redemption.  I do always marry Anora off to Alastair just because I don't like Alastair.  I want to see him suffer, and if marrying Anora to him accomplishes that goal, along with his looming public ghouldom, I am quite satisfied to spare her.

 

I totally agree with you.  I don't understand why people spare Loghain, but it is one of the fun parts of the game that we actually do have a choice.  I do wish the writers would think through the ramifications just a tad better however.  Of course, if they did we would not have as interesting a blog as we do.

[DDJ]

I played Awakening once as an orlesian elven mage just because of that. 

 

You truly understand.  I enjoy being the underdog because the satisfaction of wiping a smirk off some human noble's face never fails to make me feel warm and fuzzy.

[HeliosDisciple]

You truly understand.  I enjoy being the underdog because the satisfaction of wiping a smirk off some human noble's face never fails to make me feel warm and fuzzy.

 

With a maul, if necessary.

[DDJ]

With a maul, if necessary.

 

Or whatever comes to hand.

[obbie31]

It is simply too difficult for me to betray Alistair let alone have him executed. I understand why he would forfeit his position in the Grey Wardens if you let Loghain live. It seems like a betrayal to everything he believed in the Wardens and letting Duncan's killer go free is probably horrendous to him. He does look at Duncan as a father figure. I am sure any one of us might do something similar to what Alistair does.

 

Also, I personally prefer the hardened Alistair rules Fereldan alone. Its a great arc for him. To go from a joking simpleton to a responsible king is great development as far as I'm concerned. Also in the epilogue, I was pleased to read he was a good king that was loved by his people and even found time to hang out with them in a tavern or something. 

[Secret Rare]

It is simply too difficult for me to betray Alistair let alone have him executed. I understand why he would forfeit his position in the Grey Wardens if you let Loghain live. It seems like a betrayal to everything he believed in the Wardens and letting Duncan's killer go free is probably horrendous to him. He does look at Duncan as a father figure. I am sure any one of us might do something similar to what Alistair does.

 

 

It's not a betrayal in the first place even if Alistair consider it as such since you are only doing the best interest of the order and the nation and i bet Duncan would have done the same.

The notion that Loghain is Duncan's killer is in itself flawed since Duncan was killed by the Archdemon who controlled the darkspawn alpha not by  Loghain.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

 

 

Also, I personally prefer the hardened Alistair rules Fereldan alone. Its a great arc for him. To go from a joking simpleton to a responsible king is great development as far as I'm concerned. Also in the epilogue, I was pleased to read he was a good king that was loved by his people and even found time to hang out with them in a tavern or something. 

From the letters in DAI i would say that he is still a joking simpleton and so responsible as a king that allowed Ferelden to by taken by crazy mages.

The mabari hound would have been a better king.

[Zero]

From the letters in DAI i would say that he is still a joking simpleton and so responsible as a king that allowed Ferelden to by taken by crazy mages.

The mabari hound would have been a better king.

 

Sadly, Ferelden controlled by crazy mages happens regardless of the ruler you chose in DA:O. Even Anora ruling alone have her kingdom taken by said mages, and is still unable to broker peace with Orlais. So, is not Alistair's fault. Just bad writing.

 

 

 

It's not a betrayal in the first place even if Alistair consider it as such since you are only doing the best interest of the order and the nation and i bet Duncan would have done the same.

The notion that Loghain is Duncan's killer is in itself flawed since Duncan was killed by the Archdemon who controlled the darkspawn alpha not by  Loghain.

 

 

That's a really good point. But Alistair (or our HoF, for that matter) have no means to knowing that. All he knows is that, if Loghain didn't had abandoned his King (Alistair's blood relative, btw), Duncan maybe would have survived. 

 

What we know as a players is something our characters don't necessarily know.

[obbie31]

The best interest of the nation? I don't think its wise to have a man who puts his own hatred or prejudice for Orlais over stopping the blight to be the best idea either. Its somewhat similar to what Trump is doing in the US now. And regardless, Alistair mans up if you harden him and it works out better that way for me. Or put Anora on the throne and that works equally as well. I think Loghain deserves his death. Letting a man live who let an entire army perish is not something to take lightly. It is treason and desertion. Who's to say he won't repeat the crime because he doesn't agree with your stance in the future? And you are arguing semantics. The act of leaving Duncan and the king without aid is what lead to their death. 

 

And regardless of who the ruler of Fereldan is, the mages go crazy. That's not exclusive to Alistair. And personally, I'd have liked that letter. Seeing Warden Alistair in my run in DAI not crack a single joke felt wrong. 

[DDJ]

The best interest of the nation? I don't think its wise to have a man who puts his own hatred or prejudice for Orlais over stopping the blight to be the best idea either. Its somewhat similar to what Trump is doing in the US now. And regardless, Alistair mans up if you harden him and it works out better that way for me. Or put Anora on the throne and that works equally as well. I think Loghain deserves his death. Letting a man live who let an entire army perish is not something to take lightly. It is treason and desertion. Who's to say he won't repeat the crime because he doesn't agree with your stance in the future? And you are arguing semantics. The act of leaving Duncan and the king without aid is what lead to their death. 

 

And regardless of who the ruler of Fereldan is, the mages go crazy. That's not exclusive to Alistair. And personally, I'd have liked that letter. Seeing Warden Alistair in my run in DAI not crack a single joke felt wrong. 

 

I agree that Loghain deserves his death.  He amasses an impressive record over the game - slavery, the massacre of the alienage which he obviously condoned, seizing property that those who disagree with him own, hiring professional killers and bounty hunters, attempting to intimidate the dwarves ad infinitum.  I think he should go.

 

The mages however are a different matter.  Alastair invites them to Redcliff to have sanctuary.  They are not necessarily crazy, only fighting against the oppression brought on by enforced servitude to the chantry (which in my view amounts to slavery or prison) due to an accident of birth.  He did not have to invite them.  In so doing he brought the mage - templar conflict right into Ferelden only a decade after the Blight.  No matter how BioWare's writers cut it, he has a lot of the blame for the conflict raging in his own country to which he does absolutely nothing.  The Inquisitor does.  Now before the old "the circles are not prisons" and the mages are not slaves argument, consider that they are locked away due to their potential to do harm.  Using that very argument, why not lock up the elves since they too have the potential to do harm.  And of course, there are the warring nobles.  Slavery can be defined by three items:  they are forced to work, they cannot freely leave at any time and they are not paid for their work.  In short, when one checks the dictionary, they are slaves willfully kept locked up by the chantry due to the magic is made to serve man not to rule over him.  Nowhere does it say in all the lore that mages are made to be slaves to the chantry.  Just my thoughts on it.

[Zero]

Again, the mages being invited to Ferelden happens regardless of who you chose as a King or Queen. It happens also to Anora ruling alone, Alistair ruling alone, Alistair and Anora ruling together, Anora ruling with the Warden, or Alistair ruling with the Warden... Simply, you can't blame Alistair for something that happens regardless of your decisions as a player.

 

[Secret Rare]

 

That's a really good point. But Alistair (or our HoF, for that matter) have no means to knowing that. 

Alistair and the warden were perfectly aware that Duncan was killed by the darkspawn and that they lighted the beacon too late since they both were assigned to the task.I may as well say that Alistair was responsible because he missed the timing of the signal and not Loghain.

 

The best interest of the nation? I don't think its wise to have a man who puts his own hatred or prejudice for Orlais over stopping the blight to be the best idea either. Its somewhat similar to what Trump is doing in the US now. And regardless, Alistair mans up if you harden him and it works out better that way for me. Or put Anora on the throne and that works equally as well. I think Loghain deserves his death. Letting a man live who let an entire army perish is not something to take lightly. It is treason and desertion. 

Loghain's death at the landsmeet serve nothing other than satisfy revenge and placate Alistair while his joining is actually more fruitful than his death which is objectively useful only vs the Archdemon.In Ostagar Loghain saved a large part of the army so what he did was reasonable as well as intelligent and it wasn't desertion he changed the plan when it was disrupted by those two warden who lighted the beacon too late.

There are plenty of accusations that can be made to defeat Loghain but Ostagar is not one of those.

[DDJ]

Again, the mages being invited to Ferelden happens regardless of who you chose as a King or Queen. It happens also to Anora ruling alone, Alistair ruling alone, Alistair and Anora ruling together, Anora ruling with the Warden, or Alistair ruling with the Warden... Simply, you can't blame Alistair for something that happens regardless of your decisions as a player.

 

 

That is true, but assuming for a moment that Alastair is king, you can blame him for doing nothing to quell the violence much as you can blame Anora.  In short, the monarchy of Ferelden does nothing aid their own people.  And of course they take great umbrage over the fact that whoever after all their problems are neatly put to bed, the Inquisitor - a person they never significantly aided - has power and they fear him / her.  The monarchy invited them to Ferelden so whoever is on the throne is to blame regardless.  I realize that it is not a player decision, but the BioWare writers wrote the script.  Even Cassandra says at one point that the Ferelden army has chosen not to involve themselves in the conflict.  So if the king is Alastair you can blame him for his lackluster leadership.  If it is Anora you can blame her.  And if it is a joint rule you can blame both of them.

[Heimerdinger]

That is true, but assuming for a moment that Alastair is king, you can blame him for doing nothing to quell the violence much as you can blame Anora.  In short, the monarchy of Ferelden does nothing aid their own people.  And of course they take great umbrage over the fact that whoever after all their problems are neatly put to bed, the Inquisitor - a person they never significantly aided - has power and they fear him / her.  The monarchy invited them to Ferelden so whoever is on the throne is to blame regardless.  I realize that it is not a player decision, but the BioWare writers wrote the script.  Even Cassandra says at one point that the Ferelden army has chosen not to involve themselves in the conflict.  So if the king is Alastair you can blame him for his lackluster leadership.  If it is Anora you can blame her.  And if it is a joint rule you can blame both of them.

 

Or you can blame the writers. I doubt Alistair is much of a leader anyway but the thing is, Ferelden was dumbed down hard in Inquisition. Alistair and Anora are so useless they can't even identify some spies in their own damn castle kitchen without the Inquisition's help. They give away the nations most important stronghold (Redcliffe) without a fight. "The magister sent the Arl away." Are you kidding me Bioware? The Ferelden army is nowhere to be seen, I know they were weakened by the blight but you would expect some response when foreign forces like the venatori are gallivanting all across their country. 

[HeliosDisciple]

Literally everything I've heard about the Dragon Age universe outside of Origins is just awful between all the retcons and the fact that none of your choices matter because everything has to fit the new plots.

[Akiza]

Literally everything I've heard about the Dragon Age universe outside of Origins is just awful between all the retcons and the fact that none of your choices matter because everything has to fit the new plots.

One of my wardens for example was an evil person made for the lulz and abandoned Redcliffe(it doesn't make sense to do it but i just wanted to do that at least once) in the end in DAI they build a statue for my warden in Redclieffe..to accommodate the new plot which is a little bit ridiculous..

[Deadly dwarf]

 

Alistair and the warden were perfectly aware that Duncan was killed by the darkspawn and that they lighted the beacon too late since they both were assigned to the task.I may as well say that Alistair was responsible because he missed the timing of the signal and not Loghain.

 

Loghain's death at the landsmeet serve nothing other than satisfy revenge and placate Alistair while his joining is actually more fruitful than his death which is objectively useful only vs the Archdemon.In Ostagar Loghain saved a large part of the army so what he did was reasonable as well as intelligent and it wasn't desertion he changed the plan when it was disrupted by those two warden who lighted the beacon too late.

There are plenty of accusations that can be made to defeat Loghain but Ostagar is not one of those.

 

 

I think DAO fans will be debating this issue till the next Blight!  If the PC and Alistair lit the beacon too late, it was because Loghain's soldiers had lost control of the Tower in the first place!

 

Going back to the original battle plan, Cailan's forces were supposed to engage the Darkspawn hoard while Loghain's forces were kept a safe distance away, out of sight of the Darkspawn Army.  (Would the Darkspawn have charged Cailan if they saw that Loghain had an army in position to flank them or hit them from the rear?)  At a crucial moment, Duncan was to signal the Tower, and the Tower guards (plus the PC and Alistair) were to then light a signal from the Tower of Ishal that would be visible to Loghain.  If Loghain is close enough to the battle to see how badly Cailan's forces are doing, shouldn't he be able to see Duncan's signal as well?  And if Loghain is that close, why bother with the Tower signal at all?  I believe the cut scene they show after you light the Tower signal is misleading.  If Loghain is so close to the battle that he could clearly see what's going on, he should be able to know when to attack without the tower.

 

All that said, Alistair's hissy fit over recruiting Loghain is annoying.  But keep in mind, he really doesn't know that much more about the Wardens than your PC.  When you meet him, he thinks it's odd that Duncan would recruit a cutpurse like Daveth as well as a respected knight like Ser Jory.  He also doesn't know about the US.  If he did, he might appreciate that recruiting Loghain might actually give him the vengeance he wants.

[Zero]

I'm always wondered about that Guard in the entrance of the Tower of Ishal that said to me "the Tower of Ishal is off-limits. Loghain's men are securing the tunnels under the tower"; and then, during the battle, the Tower was overrun by darkspawn that got into the tower by using said "secured" tunnels. Pretty suspicious, indeed...