224 réponses à ce sujet

[ThomasBlaine]

Actually, I would say the Darkspawn Chronicles proves Alistair can rise to the challenge. He's left completely alone after the disaster at Ostagar but still calls in all the treaties, unites Ferelden and becomes King. He takes everything right up to the final battle with the Archdemon, and pretty much only fails because there aren't enough Wardens.

 

Which I suppose you could put on him for executing Loghain, but if Alistair duels Loghain, he kills him without Riordan ever bringing it up.

 

I'd rather credit Morrigan with that. He has all the mages annulled, slaughters all the elves, gives the Anvil of the Void back to the dwarves and somehow leaves Howe alive and well as the most powerful man in the country. One might wonder if he rises to the challenge or just does whatever she tells him to.

[Aren]

He was Morrigan's obedient tool in that Dlc.

[GoldenGail3]

A Queen- or Prince-Consort can become joint ruler, but that's a huge concession from both the reigning monarch and the Parliament and so presumably the Landsmeet and usually requires an overwhelming amount of leverage. It's not a matter of course by any means and it still doesn't actually grant the title of King.

 

To be honest, I think Alistair as King functions as little more than the mouthpiece and bedwarmer of the respective queens, and have little doubt that either of them can do pretty much whatever they want with the kingdom regardless of legal authority. Personally I wouldn't even dare send him on diplomatic ventures without well-rehearsed scripts I'd written myself, a competent escort who could actually manage him -ahem*Teagan*ahem- and strict orders not to talk to anyone about anything important. And an unmarried Alistair is obviously just Eamon's little puppet.

Luckily, my Queen Cousland prevents that occurence... Plus he's hardened in my Canon, so better king probably-ish.  

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Luckily, my Queen Cousland prevents that occurence... Plus he's hardened in my Canon, so better king probably-ish.  

He still remains an idiot regardless of what you do since in DAI his behaviour is always the same and he doesn't even know how to write  a diplomatic  letter.Let us hope he and the Queen consort will die for the calling and that King Eamon will take the crown while Solas thanks you for the archdemon soul that will help him to restore the true world.

[Catilina]

I'd rather credit Morrigan with that. He has all the mages annulled, slaughters all the elves, gives the Anvil of the Void back to the dwarves and somehow leaves Howe alive and well as the most powerful man in the country. One might wonder if he rises to the challenge or just does whatever she tells him to.

Alistair not that woesome idiot, what he sometimes presents himself. Maybe he does not like diplomacy, but strong enough for the task. At some point this can be seen quite clearly in the game. He is courageous and he have stable moral values.  I don't think, he are a puppet.

[GoldenGail3]

He still remains an idiot regardless of what you do since in DAI his behaviour is always the same and he doesn't even know how to write  a diplomatic  letter.Let us hope he and the Queen consort will die for the calling and that King Eamon will take the crown while Solas thanks you for the archdemon soul that will help him to restore the true world.

Are you kidding me? Eamon as king? Oh boy, no. I hate Eamon. 

[ThomasBlaine]

Alistair not that woesome idiot, what he sometimes presents himself. Maybe he does not like diplomacy, but strong enough for the task. At some point this can be seen quite clearly in the game. He is courageous and he have stable moral values.  I don't think, he are a puppet.

 

See, this is where the film breaks. Alistair is a brave warrior and a generally nice guy = Alistair would be a great king "with a few months of training".

 

Uhm, no. What he does make is a great mouthpiece for more ambitious and decisive people. I don't consider Alistair a woesome idiot by a long shot, he actually seems to have above average intelligence, but he's simply too messed up and borderline neurotic to make an effective second-in-command, much less a party leader, much less a ruler without someone to pretty much write his lines for him and tell him when to jump.

[DDJ]

I don't think this has anything to do with killing Alastair, but it is another good reason to execute Loghain.  During the Broken Circle quest you can have a discussion with Wynne in the tower where she confides her belief that Uldred was in cahoots with Loghain.  So even if he had good call to abandon the king as at least one survivor believes in Return to Ostagar, we know he tried to assassinate Eamon, hired assassins to kill the HoF, sold citizens into slavery, tortured nobles and others, etc.  It is an impressive array of nastiness so, while I know some of you disagree, remember I play almost always as a city elf.  In other words, off with his head.

[Catilina]

See, this is where the film breaks. Alistair is a brave warrior and a generally nice guy = Alistair would be a great king "with a few months of training".

 

Uhm, no. What he does make is a great mouthpiece for more ambitious and decisive people. I don't consider Alistair a woesome idiot by a long shot, he actually seems to have above average intelligence, but he's simply too messed up and borderline neurotic to make an effective second-in-command, much less a party leader, much less a ruler without someone to pretty much write his lines for him and tell him when to jump.

Oh, another psychiatrist! (What a lot there! And how quickly able to diagnose!)

All kings have advisors, just because he listen to them, not even puppet. With a stable moral values he able to know who he should listen to and who not. A king never rules alone. Everything can be learned.

 

Anyway, I like the decision also, that Alistair and Anora reigns together, but I still think: Alistair can handle the task alone (with advisors, ofc.). 

[Catilina]

I don't think this has anything to do with killing Alastair, but it is another good reason to execute Loghain.  During the Broken Circle quest you can have a discussion with Wynne in the tower where she confides her belief that Uldred was in cahoots with Loghain.  So even if he had good call to abandon the king as at least one survivor believes in Return to Ostagar, we know he tried to assassinate Eamon, hired assassins to kill the HoF, sold citizens into slavery, tortured nobles and others, etc.  It is an impressive array of nastiness so, while I know some of you disagree, remember I play almost always as a city elf.  In other words, off with his head.

True. However, here we deal with the reasons for which it is worth or not worth Alistair executed. Personally, I never executed Alistair, but Loghain more times. However, I can say rational reason Why can be subservient Alistair execution.

[ThomasBlaine]

I don't think this has anything to do with killing Alastair, but it is another good reason to execute Loghain.  During the Broken Circle quest you can have a discussion with Wynne in the tower where she confides her belief that Uldred was in cahoots with Loghain.  So even if he had good call to abandon the king as at least one survivor believes in Return to Ostagar, we know he tried to assassinate Eamon, hired assassins to kill the HoF, sold citizens into slavery, tortured nobles and others, etc.  It is an impressive array of nastiness so, while I know some of you disagree, remember I play almost always as a city elf.  In other words, off with his head.

 

"Her belief that Uldred was in cahoots with Loghain"? That could mean anything. It makes far more sense for Loghain to have promised protection for the mages and work in the army if Uldred could swing it with the others than that he had any intention of setting demons loose for no apparent reason whatsoever. I'd say the blame for that mess lies entirely with Uldred himself for going nuts or with the Templars either for not cracking down sooner or for being complete assholes in the first place. Certainly not with Loghain for giving one mage hope and trying to utilize every obvious tool at his disposal against the darkspawn as well as the Orlesians.

 

Aside from that, Eamon's poisoning was only supposed to leave him in a coma while Loghain dealt with Cailan's treachery according to Gaider.

 

Oh, another psychiatrist! (What a lot there! And how quickly able to diagnose!)

All kings have advisors, just because he listen to them, not even puppet. With a stable moral values he able to know who he should listen to and who not. A king never rules alone. Everything can be learned.

 

Anyway, I like the decision also, that Alistair and Anora reigns together, but I still think: Alistair can handle the task alone (with advisors, ofc.). 

 

You don't have to be a psychiatrist to see that someone is "messed up and neurotic", so that's a pretty lame point. And Alistair doesn't have "stable moral values", he has a particular set of morals and actually sucks really badly at prioritizing and being willing to compromise them when called on to make a hard decision. And if he needs all these advisors and all this teaching to be even a passable king, why put him on the throne over other, far more skilled and experienced and influential claimants who are also willing to pledge their support to the Wardens and who also don't hate the idea of being the leader?

[Qun00]

Alistair not that woesome idiot, what he sometimes presents himself. Maybe he does not like diplomacy, but strong enough for the task. At some point this can be seen quite clearly in the game. He is courageous and he have stable moral values. I don't think, he are a puppet.

Exactly. He is a man with stable moral values, which means he wouldn't make the morally dubious choices in that DLC.

[GoldenGail3]

You don't have to be a psychiatrist to see that someone is "messed up and neurotic", so that's a pretty lame point. And Alister doesn't have "stable moral values", he has a particular set of morals and actually sucks really badly at prioritizing and being willing to compromise them when called on to make a hard decision. And if he needs all these advisors and all this teaching to be even a passable king, why put him on the throne over other, far more skilled and experienced and influential claimants who are also willing to pledge their support to the Wardens and who also don't hate the idea of being the leader?

Anora is a better fit for the throne, but I only put Alistair on the throne because well.... My Cousland wasn't in the mood to let Anora have it and she couldn't take the throne herself, so she let Alistair have it while she resided besides him as a Consort. 

[ThomasBlaine]

Exactly. He is a man with stable moral values, which means he wouldn't make the morally dubious choices in that DLC.

 

I don't know about that. He argues for killing the mages out of hand at the Circle Tower, and having been left completely alone after Ostagar might have rendered him much more suggestible to Morrigan and assorted quest givers. And canonically, he'll vigorously kill and murder on your say-so regardless of his own morals, losing only a bit of his respect for you rather than making any actual attempt at stopping or restraining you even though he's technically supposed to be your superior.

 

This is what I mean, he's just not a reliable person when it comes to making decisions. He'll follow orders very comfortably, but doesn't trust himself to do his own thinking when put on the spot, always going with knee-jerk reactions or blind passion or someone else's suggestion without actually exploring his options.

[HeliosDisciple]

Can't imagine why a templar would vote to annul the broken circle.

 

In any case, he didn't listen to Morrigan since Wynne is still alive.

[Inkvisiittori]

I don't know about that. He argues for killing the mages out of hand at the Circle Tower, and having been left completely alone after Ostagar might have rendered him much more suggestible to Morrigan and assorted quest givers. And canonically, he'll vigorously kill and murder on your say-so regardless of his own morals, losing only a bit of his respect for you rather than making any actual attempt at stopping or restraining you even though he's technically supposed to be your superior.

 

This is what I mean, he's just not a reliable person when it comes to making decisions. He'll follow orders very comfortably, but doesn't trust himself to do his own thinking when put on the spot, always going with knee-jerk reactions or blind passion or someone else's suggestion without actually exploring his options.

 

Exactly. Reminds me of what Loghain said to Eamon at the Landsmeet:

 

"We all know you wish to put a puppet on the throne - the real question is who will be pulling the strings."

[Aren]

leaves Howe alive and well

Is he there because Bioware need an extra npc to kill or because Alistair is so narrow minded that blamed Loghain for 100% of wrong in the world?

Howe had no problems in torturing people for fun regardless of their status and race or to hire mercenary to kill the Grey wardens...

Oh  Alistair facepalm....

[ThomasBlaine]

In any case, he didn't listen to Morrigan since Wynne is still alive.

 

Well, he evidently didn't listen to Wynne or the mages would bloody well be alive. Funny how she finagled that one.

 

Exactly. Reminds me of what Loghain said to Eamon at the Landsmeet:

 

"We all know you wish to put a puppet on the throne - the real question is who will be pulling the strings."

 

When I first came to the Landsmeet section I figured that Alistar would eventually just shut down and run away if made king, and Eamon would be left standing there with his ass hanging out while the nobles denounced him and voted someone else in as monarch. Fergus, I imagine.

 

 

Is he there because Bioware need an extra npc to kill or because Alistair is so narrow minded that blamed Loghain for 100% of wrong in the world?

Howe had no problems in torturing people for fun regardless of their status and race or to hire mercenary to kill the Grey wardens...

Oh  Alistair facepalm....

 

 

Yup. Rendorn Howe, Teyrn of Highever and Arl of Denerim and Amaranthine, by far the most powerful noble in the country once Loghain is dead.

[DDJ]

True. However, here we deal with the reasons for which it is worth or not worth Alistair executed. Personally, I never executed Alistair, but Loghain more times. However, I can say rational reason Why can be subservient Alistair execution.

 

Actually I never execute Alistair.  Loghain always gets executed.  The background is simple.  I play as a city elf and Howe murders my kin.  Then I learn they are selling others into slavery.  When Cauthrion (sp?) tries to defend Loghain I lose it, and whatever I might have tried ends up with Loghain dead and Alistair married to Anora.  

[congokong]

Regarding Alistair's intelligence, I feel the Morrigan/Alistair dynamic reminds me of Timon and Pumbaa. Alistair, like Pumbaa, is the smarter of the two but doesn't realize/acknowledge it. Morrigan, like Timon, thinks she is much smarter than she really is.

 

I usually found Alistair's responses to be quite level-headed in comparison. Ex: When Morrigan wanted to just free Jowan when Alistair thought they should actually know something about the situation before doing something so hasty.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Executing Loghain might be a moral dilemma, but killing Alistair is just plain wrong.

[Inkvisiittori]

Executing Loghain might be a moral dilemma, but killing Alistair is just plain wrong.

 

Grey Warden's have killed people for less. Alistair disobeys his superiors and abandons the Order in it's critical moment. If the warden's had failed and the Archdemon had destroyed Denerim and killed everyone in the city, Alistair would be partly responsible for their deaths. He has sworn to defend people against the Blight yet he abandons them when they need him the most.

[GoldenGail3]

Grey Warden's have killed people for less. Alistair disobeys his superiors and abandons the Order in it's critical moment. If the warden's had failed and the Archdemon had destroyed Denerim and killed everyone in the city, Alistair would be partly responsible for their deaths. He has sworn to defend people against the Blight yet he abandons them when they need him the most.

Isn't he superior to the your Grey Warden though? He's the older recruit, so he didn't disobey anyone - he just choice not to listen to your character and leave (becuase he doesn't care what your character thinks or what not). Otherwise, yah your correct - I would like to note that if Alistair had been both patient and allowed to, i would've killed Loghian by throwing him to the Archdemon, but eh, Impatience and 'justice for all!' is Alistair's weakness though. 

[Dai Grepher]

Is he there because Bioware need an extra npc to kill or because Alistair is so narrow minded that blamed Loghain for 100% of wrong in the world?
Howe had no problems in torturing people for fun regardless of their status and race or to hire mercenary to kill the Grey wardens...
Oh  Alistair facepalm....

Alistair wouldn't have gone to the Denerim Estate to rescue Anora in the first place. So it would all come down to the fight breaking out and then the duel. After which, Howe would swear that it was all Loghain's doing and he would promise the utmost support to Alistair's reign. I think DC also states that Alistair's marriage to Anora was a compromise to break the deadlock at the Landsmeet. It also suggests that Alistair and Leliana had a relationship. And Morrigan is with him in the final battle, which means he did the dirty with the swamp witch.
 

Isn't he superior to the your Grey Warden though?

Well certainly not if he quits. But no, he was basically the same rank. He said he was recruited about six months before you. Also, if you're a human noble, then I would say your rank is naturally higher than his. But he follows the Warden regardless.
 

He's the older recruit, so he didn't disobey anyone - he just choice not to listen to your character and leave (becuase he doesn't care what your character thinks or what not).

He disobeys the Grey Warden Order and deserts. And if you're looking for a superior officer, then Riordan is your guy.
 

Otherwise, yah your correct - I would like to note that if Alistair had been both patient and allowed to, i would've killed Loghian by throwing him to the Archdemon, but eh, Impatience and 'justice for all!' is Alistair's weakness though.

Too bad there wasn't a "Just trust me" option where Alistair would stay in Denerim, even if he leaves the party. He should have at least stayed to defend the people, including Goldanna, like he promised.

[ThomasBlaine]

Grey Warden's have killed people for less. Alistair disobeys his superiors and abandons the Order in it's critical moment. If the warden's had failed and the Archdemon had destroyed Denerim and killed everyone in the city, Alistair would be partly responsible for their deaths. He has sworn to defend people against the Blight yet he abandons them when they need him the most.

 

The player character hasn't had nearly enough contact with the order to have adopted its doctrine though. Duncan's brief warnings, Alistair's vague parroting and the brutal gutting of Ser Jory by themselves wouldn't condition a newcomer to kill someone on principle, especially not a newcomer to society in general and particularly not to kill a comrade in arms who had regularly defended your life with his own and likely saved it more than once in the past year.

 

One might end up very annoyed with Alistair by the end of that year, but I think it'd take an exceptionally cold person not to argue exile over execution for him.