224 replies to this topic

[Inkvisiittori]

The player character hasn't had nearly enough contact with the order to have adopted its doctrine though. Duncan's brief warnings, Alistair's vague parroting and the brutal gutting of Ser Jory by themselves wouldn't condition a newcomer to kill someone on principle, especially not a newcomer to society in general and particularly not to kill a comrade in arms who had regularly defended your life with his own and likely saved it more than once in the past year.

 

One might end up very annoyed with Alistair by the end of that year, but I think it'd take an exceptionally cold person not to argue exile over execution for him.

 

It's depends on what kind of character you're playing. The Blight threatens entire world. Someone with very high sense of duty might see that Alistair's crime - desertion - is so grave that there is only sentence you can pass. Exceptional circumstances change people. The Warden has seen more war, death and violence in the past year than in their entire life before that. You are the only two wardens left in Ferelden - the survival of the nation rest heavily on your shoulders. 

 

It's not mild annoyance you feel when Alistair throws temper tantrum and threatens to abandon the Order if you don't do what he wants - it is the feeling of betrayal. He doesn't just betray you his friend and leader - he betrays the Order, he betrays the people he promised to protect, he betrays the world. I can see very clear justification to execute him. Alistair maybe just a very childish man who doesn't think through his actions, but that doesn't excuse him. He is still responsible for his own actions. As are we all. 

 

Warden has been the leader of their group all game long. He has made all the decisions - and suffered the consequences. He is right to judge Alistair. 

[Inkvisiittori]

Isn't he superior to the your Grey Warden though? He's the older recruit, so he didn't disobey anyone - he just choice not to listen to your character and leave (becuase he doesn't care what your character thinks or what not). Otherwise, yah your correct - I would like to note that if Alistair had been both patient and allowed to, i would've killed Loghian by throwing him to the Archdemon, but eh, Impatience and 'justice for all!' is Alistair's weakness though. 

 

He's not superior - we have the same rank, we are both wardens.

 

Alistair could have become the leader of the group - but he doesn't have what it takes to be one. It's is the Warden who leads to group - who makes all the difficult decision and has to live with the consequences. He is the leader and Alistair is his responsibility.

 

Alistair has no right the leave Ferelden when there is a blight and Archdemon. He swore an oath the defend the people. His desertion at the darkest hour is reprehensible. At the times of war such crime is punishable by death. It is the Warden's right to judge him. 

[Catilina]

It's depends on what kind of character you're playing. The Blight threatens entire world. Someone with very high sense of duty might see that Alistair's crime - desertion - is so grave that there is only sentence you can pass. Exceptional circumstances change people. The Warden has seen more war, death and violence in the past year than in their entire life before that. You are the only two wardens left in Ferelden - the survival of the nation rest heavily on your shoulders. 

 

It's not mild annoyance you feel when Alistair throws temper tantrum and threatens to abandon the Order if you don't do what he wants - it is the feeling of betrayal. He doesn't just betray you his friend and leader - he betrays the Order, he betrays the people he promised to protect, he betrays the world. I can see very clear justification to execute him. Alistair maybe just a very childish man who doesn't think through his actions, but that doesn't excuse him. He is still responsible for his own actions. As are we all. 

 

Warden has been the leader of their group all game long. He has made all the decisions - and suffered the consequences. He is right to judge Alistair. 

This may also be true (it has also executed people for less), but if the Warden has not executed Loghain, for what he did, I dont see the reason, why the Warden execute Alistair for his hystery... he can't left the order, never. I think It's pretty fair penalty. (In any case, it must take into account that not too easy to kill a[n ex?]friend. By the way, judge someone to death is not so simple.)

[Inkvisiittori]

This may also be true (it has also executed people for less), but if the Warden has not executed Loghain, for what he did, I dont see the reason, why the Warden execute Alistair for his hystery... he can't left the order, never. I think is good enough. (In any case, it must take into account that not too easy to kill a[n ex?]friend.)

 

When you become a warden all your past crimes are forgiven - you pledge yourself for the service of greater good and begin your life anew as Grey Warden. This is Loghain's atonement. For deserters like Alistair there is no such way out. 

 

We must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy.

[Catilina]

When you become a warden all your past crimes are forgiven - you pledge yourself for the service of greater good and begin your life anew as Grey Warden. This is Loghain's atonement. For deserters like Alistair there is no such way out. 

 

We must all face the choice between what is right and what is easy.

I can not say that it is right. If it were right, Loghain punishment: clearly death (betrayal, slave-trading etc...Alistair was right). On the other hand: Do not killing someone is not a crime, this also applies to Loghain and Alistair as well. And do not forget: Grey Wardens are not a simple soldiers. They can't ever to leave the order and already doomed. The execution unnecessarily cruel.

[Inkvisiittori]

I can not say that it is right. If it were right, Loghain punishment: clearly death (betrayal, slave-trading etc...Alistair was right). On the other hand: Do not killing someone is not a crime, and Gray Wardens are not a simple soldiers. They can't ever to leave the order and already doomed. The execution unnecessarily cruel.

 

It can be justified given the circumstances.

 

But... you are also right. It's a very harsh punishment.

 

I think the most reasonable thing to do would be to imprison Alistair. If all the other wardens failed he would be our last hope of stopping the Archdemon (good luck, buddy...)

[Domakir]

If all the other wardens failed he would be our last hope of stopping the Archdemon (good luck, buddy...)

Seeing how Darkspawn Chronicles went...

[GoldenGail3]

He's not superior - we have the same rank, we are both wardens.

 

Alistair could have become the leader of the group - but he doesn't have what it takes to be one. It's is the Warden who leads to group - who makes all the difficult decision and has to live with the consequences. He is the leader and Alistair is his responsibility.

 

Alistair has no right the leave Ferelden when there is a blight and Archdemon. He swore an oath the defend the people. His desertion at the darkest hour is reprehensible. At the times of war such crime is punishable by death. It is the Warden's right to judge him. 

So he still doesn't betray his superiors, lol. Original point stands. 

[GoldenGail3]

It can be justified given the circumstances.

 

But... you are also right. It's a very harsh punishment.

 

I think the most reasonable thing to do would be to imprison Alistair. If all the other wardens failed he would be our last hope of stopping the Archdemon (good luck, buddy...)

The same could easily have been said about Loghian, he's not trustworthy enough to be trusted anywhere near the Warden, afterall he did try and kill them twice.

[Catilina]

By the way: The execution is Anora's requests, but Anora already received a life: Her father's. She must be satisfied with it, and be grateful. Good enough for a wedding present. She might even get a nice pendant. Enough trinket left that does not needed to Morrigan.

[GoldenGail3]

By the way: The execution is Anora's requests, but Anora already received a life: His father's. She must be satisfied with it, and be grateful. Good enough for a wedding present. She might even get a nice pendant. Enough left that does not needed to Morrigan.

His half bro's life, you mean. 

[Catilina]

His half bro's life, you mean. 

No, she (Anora) received her father's (Loghain's) life. (Oh that sh!t gender based pronouns! Blame that, why you misunderstood me [maybe].) Corrected.

[Domakir]

So he still doesn't betray his superiors, lol. Original point stands. 

Well... you are the leader so I suppose you could say you are his superior but if not you still have Riodan and even him leaves the decision in your hands.

[ThomasBlaine]

Duncan left Alistair in charge of the recruits and you're the one following him to the Tower of Ishal, not the other way around. Those are effectively standing orders, he has half a year of experience on you, and I still think his utter refusal to lead reflects a huge weakness in his character that's pretty relevant for an aspiring king.

[Zero]

Alistair wouldn't have gone to the Denerim Estate to rescue Anora in the first place. So it would all come down to the fight breaking out and then the duel. After which, Howe would swear that it was all Loghain's doing and he would promise the utmost support to Alistair's reign. I think DC also states that Alistair's marriage to Anora was a compromise to break the deadlock at the Landsmeet. It also suggests that Alistair and Leliana had a relationship. And Morrigan is with him in the final battle, which means he did the dirty with the swamp witch.

 
Wrong, Alistair did rescued Anora in the Darkspawn Chronicles (because in the codex say they reached a compromise in the Landsmeet). What means even if he disliked Anora (which seems not to be the case in game), he would have rescued her because "is the right thing to do" (heck, that's whole point with his character, and perhaps his biggest flaw).
 

Too bad there wasn't a "Just trust me" option where Alistair would stay in Denerim, even if he leaves the party. He should have at least stayed to defend the people, including Goldanna, like he promised.

There was that option, originally. At one point it would have been possible to conscript Loghain Mac Tir and for Alistair to remain in the direct party. There are even dialogue tracks that remained in the game files of a unique conversation between Alistair and Loghain in Return to Ostagar (see video here). But BW eliminated that option in the final game, because... dunno, game balance? Plot Induced-stupidity?

 

Or you just could harden Alistair, and he becomes King and marries Anora out of spite, while you get Warden Loghain as well.
 

[HeliosDisciple]

Deserter or not, it's a phenomenally bad idea to kill one of three Wardens before Loghain even undergoes the Joining. Kill him afterwards if honor demands it, but make sure you've got a replacement first.

[GoldenGail3]

No, she (Anora) received her father's (Loghain's) life. (Oh that sh!t gender based pronouns! Blame that, why you misunderstood me [maybe].) Corrected.

I was talking about Cailan's death, lol. 

[GoldenGail3]

but if not you still have Riodan and even him leaves the decision in your hands.

That's actually true, I'll accept that.

[GoldenGail3]

Deserter or not, it's a phenomenally bad idea to kill one of three Wardens before Loghain even undergoes the Joining. Kill him afterwards if honor demands it, but make sure you've got a replacement first.

Meh, well than one of my King Cousland's worldstates is full of phenomenally bad ideas as he killed both Loghian and Alistair, lol.   

[DDJ]

Meh, well than one of my King Cousland's worldstates is full of phenomenally bad ideas as he killed both Loghian and Alistair, lol. 

 

You all raise valid points pro and con.  Setting aside the fact that I play as a city elf the overriding issue here is the Blight.  What I do not understand is that if I spare Loghain to make him a Warden (a wise move by Riordan standards).  Why not just, "Guards, seize that man and hold him in the dungeon until he cools off."  Besides if you kill Alastair you run the risk of alienating your main ally, Eamon.  So in my dark world view, I execute Loghain each and every time.  Alastair I marry off to Anora to get him away from me.  Another ten hours of him complaining and whining would have driven me nuts.  There are other reasons I want him to be king, darker reasons that I will not go into here.  Why BW limited the choice is really confusing although I suspect they only wanted two Wardens in the end battle.  They could have accomplished that with Alastair sitting in jail.

[Fuyin]

I wouldn't kill Alistair but I suppose it is tour right to do it if you take the grey wardens duty seriously

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't care if it is right or wrong that is irrelevant, if him leaving would have no negative ramifications i would let him go.I opt for killing him in order to make him an example to those who want to desert.

[GoldenGail3]

Oh and I image they could've done the same to Loghian, putting him in Jail and than sending him off to kill the Archdemon. Sounds pretty sweet to me, lol

[Aren]

Deserter or not, it's a phenomenally bad idea to kill one of three Wardens before Loghain even undergoes the Joining. Kill him afterwards if honor demands it, but make sure you've got a replacement first.

Alistair is taken away  his death doesn't happen immediately at the Landsmeet.

[Akiza]

I don't care if it is right or wrong that is irrelevant, if him leaving would have no negative ramifications i would let him go.I opt for killing him in order to make him an example to those who want to desert.

Oh oh TKS share my same mindset! I feel in ecstasy