62 réponses à ce sujet

[rossler]

Sure I do. He believes there's still unresolved issues with the ending that were never fixed. They can't fix them unless Bioware can reproduce the issues he's talking about on their end, not on his.

[AlanC9]

Plotholes aren't dependent on your PC.

[rossler]

Maybe what he thinks are plot holes, Bioware's writers don't.

[sveners]

Maybe what he thinks are plot holes, Bioware's writers don't.

That is a scary thought.

[Shepard_Commander11]

I remember I got the game at midnight but I was going to New York the a couple of days later for a 4 day family trip. I was enjoying the bleep out of that game. It was the perfect mix of 1 and 2 and it gave you all the feels. 

 

My cousin beat the game while I was there and was texting me how bad the ending was and suggested I don't even finish it and wait to see if there was DLC. When I returned, I put like 16 hours in the next two days and finished it. That entire time until the last 30 minutes I was like what is he talking about? And then I beat it and was outraged. I considered selling all my games. I felt betrayed.

And then I played the entire series through 2 months later and realized just how big of an overreaction we all had. The ending was bad, but for 99.9% of the series, it was the greatest video game experience of my life and probably will ever be.

[NerdWithBigStick]

If it's been a long time for you, I strongly suggest another play through. 

 

QFE.

 

Hype and dismay can strongly influence a player's experience. 

 

I replayed this game twice, the most recent of which was long after the initial wave of hullabaloo, and I found it to be exceptionally paced, well directed, and excellently scripted.  Does the ending suffer from a Deus Ex Machina problem?  Yes, of course.  But for those 5 minutes, is the rest of the game to suffer?  No.  The game itself is excellent, IMHO.

 

People will disagree, and that is OK, but I personally feel it is still an excellent game.  Hence I am here talking about it 4 years later.

 

EDIT - In particular, Leviathan is just an amazing, excellent piece of writing.

[Rosstoration]

Mass Effect 3 used to make me angry, but now when I try and play it, it just makes me sad to see all the wasted potential, all the rushed characters, the fact nothing in the game makes any sense, and the lore and tonal inconsistencies to 1 and 2. I tend to get really into the series again in 1 and 2, but then 3 comes around and I usually just rush through it. Glad to see some people can still enjoy it though.

[lastpatriot]

I still won't play ME3 without the MEHEM mod installed.  Without it just brings back the broken-heart memory. 

[Angry_Elcor]

Nobody will mock the OP over the fact that it has been four years, not three? BSN, you have disappointed me. To say nothing of the fact that this is an ME 3 ending thread, and no one has cussed, invoked Hitler, or called anyone a genocidal lunatic.

 

Am I even on BSN anymore?

[Lord Kiran]

I'm actually doing a trilogy playthrough atm, and I think I know why people dislike the first one:

 

It's by far the most difficult (At least early on)

 

The save points are few and far between. if you aren't saving then dying can cost you up to an hour of progress.

 

I'm also discovering and rediscovering just how poorly made the actual story to ME1 is. The conduit is a hamfisted plot device that Saren decides he needs even though he doesn't at all. Nothing in the game suggests that he actually needed the conduit so you as a player are forced to come up with your own BS headcanon reason for why this is, usually brushed off with the vague "The presidium was too heavily defended or something..."

 

Me2 isn't as bad as I recall, the score is actually my favorite. Lots of creepy ambiance. But god damn is ME2 boring. I mean really boring! Where as ME1 had eclectic gameplay with driving sections and RPG elements, and ME3 had the relatively polished (But still pretty meh) action-shooter mechanics with lots of rolling/dodging nonsense and engaging enemy variety that all play off of themselves and your different powers, ME2 has nothing. It's the most boring mass effect out there.

 

And ME3 while not the most boring one (And thus easily better than ME2) replaying this game again has reminded me just how terrible ME3 is from start to finish for a lot of different reasons. Playing this game again reminds you just how long it takes before the game lets you off the leash to go explore the galaxy and do things at your own pace, and after the krogan bit the game -really- begins to run out of steam.

 

The whole attack on the citadel bit strikes me as filler content since it has nothing to do with anything and doesn't forward the plot at all. The geth/quarian bit though is by far the worst sans the ending and that mostly comes down to how the geth and their ships are portrayed. And you know what? I could forgive ALL of it, if it didn't fall so terribly short on the character department. Part of this is due to character bloat in general but jesus christ it's like these people forgot what it is fans play these games for. Because it's certainly not for the third rate Gears of War clone gameplay.

[Monica21]

The whole attack on the citadel bit strikes me as filler content since it has nothing to do with anything and doesn't forward the plot at all. The geth/quarian bit though is by far the worst sans the ending and that mostly comes down to how the geth and their ships are portrayed. And you know what? I could forgive ALL of it, if it didn't fall so terribly short on the character department. Part of this is due to character bloat in general but jesus christ it's like these people forgot what it is fans play these games for. Because it's certainly not for the third rate Gears of War clone gameplay.

 

I don't have a link for it, but the Citadel Coup was originally supposed to take place after Thessia. TIM getting the data meant that he knew the Citadel was the Catalyst, so that's when he took it over and that's why he's on the Citadel after Shepard gets taken up by the beam. The original explanation made a lot more sense.

[Iakus]

 

I'm also discovering and rediscovering just how poorly made the actual story to ME1 is. The conduit is a hamfisted plot device that Saren decides he needs even though he doesn't at all. Nothing in the game suggests that he actually needed the conduit so you as a player are forced to come up with your own BS headcanon reason for why this is, usually brushed off with the vague "The presidium was too heavily defended or something..."

 

Saren didn't know what the Conduit was either.

 

That's the thing about Saren in ME1, he was always one step ahead of Shepard, but only one step ahead.  He was looking for the exact same clues as Shepard.  Before Ilos, Saren likely had no more idea what the Conduit was or what happened to the Keepers than Shepard did.

[themikefest]

I don't have a link for it, but the Citadel Coup was originally supposed to take place after Thessia. TIM getting the data meant that he knew the Citadel was the Catalyst, so that's when he took it over and that's why he's on the Citadel after Shepard gets taken up by the beam. The original explanation made a lot more sense.

Here you go

 

https://www.reddit.c...3s_development/

[Lord Kiran]

Saren didn't know what the Conduit was either.

 

That's the thing about Saren in ME1, he was always one step ahead of Shepard, but only one step ahead.  He was looking for the exact same clues as Shepard.  Before Ilos, Saren likely had no more idea what the Conduit was or what happened to the Keepers than Shepard did.

If he didn't know what it was or what it would do then that just makes Saren's plan all the more dumb. There's no reason for Saren to even think he'd need the conduit when ostensibly all Sovereign needed was a pair of physical hands to press a few buttons. This wouldn't bother me so much if it wasn't the entire driving force behind the plot. Because there would be no story if Saren just went back to the citadel and did some boring desk job for a year and then when Sovereign attacks with the geth, Saren just fights or sneaks up to the presidium during all the chaos, possibly with the help of Benezia and her commandos (In case you forgot they exist, further credence to the fact that Saren wouldn't have needed geth on the station with him.)

 

I don't have a link for it, but the Citadel Coup was originally supposed to take place after Thessia. TIM getting the data meant that he knew the Citadel was the Catalyst, so that's when he took it over and that's why he's on the Citadel after Shepard gets taken up by the beam. The original explanation made a lot more sense.

Makes you wonder why they didn't go with that then...I'd like to know the rationale behind that. Like I get why it happened after looking up the link, but did nobody point out how this ultimately makes no sense and comes across as pointless filler in a game that doesn't need that? I also find the notion that Cerberus wasn't prominent enough to be pretty hilarious when they're the first enemies you fight after earth and they're in almost every single side mission.

[Monica21]

Saren didn't know what the Conduit was either.
 
That's the thing about Saren in ME1, he was always one step ahead of Shepard, but only one step ahead.  He was looking for the exact same clues as Shepard.  Before Ilos, Saren likely had no more idea what the Conduit was or what happened to the Keepers than Shepard did.

I thought he knew what it was but just not where it was. What is there in-game to suggest that he doesn't know what it is? I'm not being rhetorical, I'm honestly curious about what I've missed.

[Lord Kiran]

I thought he knew what it was but just not where it was. What is there in-game to suggest that he doesn't know what it is? I'm not being rhetorical, I'm honestly curious about what I've missed.

If we assume Saren had no idea what it was or what it would do, do you think after it just teleported him into the citadel, he had a good rage fit where he kicked himself in the rear for several minutes, swearing loudly while his geth followers just look between themselves confused?

[Monica21]

Makes you wonder why they didn't go with that then...I'd like to know the rationale behind that. Like I get why it happened after looking up the link, but did nobody point out how this ultimately makes no sense and comes across as pointless filler in a game that doesn't need that? I also find the notion that Cerberus wasn't prominent enough to be pretty hilarious when they're the first enemies you fight after earth and they're in almost every single side mission.

The link that themikefest provided above goes into that. (Spoiler alert: it's a silly reason.)

[Iakus]

I thought he knew what it was but just not where it was. What is there in-game to suggest that he doesn't know what it is? I'm not being rhetorical, I'm honestly curious about what I've missed.

All he really knows that Shepard doesn't know is the nature of the Reapers, the Citadel, and that the Keepers are for some reason not taking Sovereign's calls.

 

Now, Sovereign knows something's wrong with the Citadel, but doesn't know what, exactly. Saren could be of help in figuring out where the point of failure is.  But really, why would he consider the Keepers?  They're like furniture in the Citadel.  No one bothers them.  No one's even allowed to bother them! 

 

But Saren did manage to uncover evidence that the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel somehow.  Using a device called a "Conduit"  How did they do it?  Could this Conduit undo what was done?

 

Until reaching Ilos, Saren had no more reason to know that the Conduit was a prototype relay than Shepard did.

[Lord Kiran]

All he really knows that Shepard doesn't know is the nature of the Reapers, the Citadel, and that the Keepers are for some reason not taking Sovereign's calls.

 

Now, Sovereign knows something's wrong with the Citadel, but doesn't know what, exactly. Saren could be of help in figuring out where the point of failure is.  But really, why would he consider the Keepers?  They're like furniture in the Citadel.  No one bothers them.  No one's even allowed to bother them! 

 

But Saren did manage to uncover evidence that the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel somehow.  Using a device called a "Conduit"  How did they do it?  Could this Conduit undo what was done?

 

Until reaching Ilos, Saren had no more reason to know that the Conduit was a prototype relay than Shepard did.

I want you to put yourself into sovereign's position for a moment. You woke up and its time to harvest the galaxy, but the citadel isn't responding. You have a man on the inside with top level clearance and nobody is any the wiser. What do you do? 

 

Because the answer cannot possibly be to send your inside man around the galaxy blowing up colonies, breeding krogan armies and blowing his own cover whilst drawing all sorts of unnecessary and unwanted attention, potentially exposing yourself in the process. Are we supposed to believe that sovereign didn't know about the citadel master control? if that's the case then how did Saren know about it? If they did know then why didn't they try that first, rather than risking everything on an unknown?

 

At the end of the game Saren is just sitting up there pressing buttons. Why would this be threatening now if he didnt already have the capacity to do this all along without  the conduit?

[Iakus]

I want you to put yourself into sovereign's position for a moment. You woke up and its time to harvest the galaxy, but the citadel isn't responding. You have a man on the inside with top level clearance and nobody is any the wiser. What do you do? 

 

Because the answer cannot possibly be to send your inside man around the galaxy blowing up colonies, breeding krogan armies and blowing his own cover whilst drawing all sorts of unnecessary and unwanted attention, potentially exposing yourself in the process. Are we supposed to believe that sovereign didn't know about the citadel master control? if that's the case then how did Saren know about it? If they did know then why didn't they try that first, rather than risking everything on an unknown?

 

At the end of the game Saren is just sitting up there pressing buttons. Why would this be threatening now if he didnt already have the capacity to do this all along without  the conduit?

You've got a man on the inside, but no clue what he should look for.

 

Now in the 20 years that Sovereign and Saren worked together, we can infer that they figured out that Protheans from the previous cycle did something involving a device called a "Conduit" and thus were trying to figure out where it came from, what world those Protheans were based on and such.

[Get Magna Carter]

I want you to put yourself into sovereign's position for a moment. You woke up and its time to harvest the galaxy, but the citadel isn't responding. You have a man on the inside with top level clearance and nobody is any the wiser. What do you do? 

 

Because the answer cannot possibly be to send your inside man around the galaxy blowing up colonies, breeding krogan armies and blowing his own cover whilst drawing all sorts of unnecessary and unwanted attention, potentially exposing yourself in the process. Are we supposed to believe that sovereign didn't know about the citadel master control? if that's the case then how did Saren know about it? If they did know then why didn't they try that first, rather than risking everything on an unknown?

 

At the end of the game Saren is just sitting up there pressing buttons. Why would this be threatening now if he didnt already have the capacity to do this all along without  the conduit?

Firstly, Sovereign didn't wake up with a man on the inside - recruiting Saren with a mixture of propaganda and indoctrination was an early stage of Sovereign's plan.

Secondly, with the benefit of hindsight we can see that Sovereign SHOULD have simply had Saran assist as it activated the relay and called in the Reaper fleet from darkspace BUT Sovereign did not know that.

Sovereign knew that there was a problem but did not know what the problem was - Sovereign did not know if the problem would prevent the summoning of Reapers with relays or otherwise cause future problems (and succesfully calling in the fleet may destroy the evidence of what the conduit is by genociding all the organics) so instead embarked on plans to

1) find out what the problem was to see what future impact it can have, how to stop it, etc

2) plan b - build up an army to take the galaxy in case the other Reapers can't be summoned (as they are trapped in dark space and can't simply fly in with out the relay) 

(edited to correct - it's a while since I last played it)

 

alternatively, you can simply accept that Sovereign is "beyond your comprehension." and you are "incapable of understanding" it's motivations

[Lord Kiran]

You've got a man on the inside, but no clue what he should look for.

 

Now in the 20 years that Sovereign and Saren worked together, we can infer that they figured out that Protheans from the previous cycle did something involving a device called a "Conduit" and thus were trying to figure out where it came from, what world those Protheans were based on and such.

Again, the main thrust of the final mission is stopping Saren/Sovereign before they can summon the reapers via the master control console in the presidium. If Saren and Sovereign already knew what this was, where it was, and how it works then why didn't they start with that? Why risk everything chasing after an unknown when the solution is right in front of you?

 

Firstly, Sovereign didn't wake up with a man on the inside - recruiting Saren with a mixture of propaganda and indoctrination was an early stage of Sovereign's plan.

Secondly, with the benefit of hindsight we can see that Sovereign SHOULD have simply had Saran activate the relay and call in the Reaper fleet from darkspace BUT Sovereign did not know that.

Sovereign knew that there was a problem but did not know what the problem was - Sovereign did not know if the problem would prevent the summoning of Reapers with relays or otherwise cause future problems (and succesfully calling in the fleet may destroy the evidence of what the conduit is by genociding all the organics) so instead embarked on plans to

1) find out what the problem was to see what future impact it can have, how to stop it, etc

2) plan b - build up an army to take the galaxy in case the other Reapers can't be summoned (as they are trapped in dark space and can't simply fly in with out the relay) 

 

alternatively, you can simply accept that Sovereign is "beyond your comprehension." and you are "incapable of understanding" it's motivations

The time between Sovereign waking up and Saren and Sovereign hooking up is not pertinent to my point, especially when the game starts with them already in cahoots.

 

And how can sovereign not know that? They built the citadel, how would they not know that activating the master control console and having an indoctrinated set of hands press a few buttons wouldn't achieve the same result? Am I supposed to believe that Sov. is completely uninformed and ignorant of the tech his people built? Especially when he's the one they left behind to keep tabs on everything?

 

All they had to do in order to fix this is just show presidium tower as being such a stiffling high-level security zone that not even a spectre can enter unnoticed or without some sort of clearance. maybe instead of shep actually meeting with the council there, he is the one who has to be shown through a hologram, while Saren is there in person, signifying his status over a comparatively lowly alliance officer. Perhaps on the occasion when shep is made a spectre, he has to go through a host of checkpoints and scanners surrounded by automated defences, with armed guards patrolling the tower.

 

instead what we can infer about the security level of the presidium tower is the exact opposite. Three mid-to-low level alliance soldiers (none of which are spectres or C-sec officers) are allowed to just wander in with their guns and armor. A random solarian scientist is allowed to just loiter about, messing with keepers and it takes a non-security staff member to walk up and even so much as ask him what he's doing there, nevermind if he has any official business or any kind of anti-loitering ordinance. 

 

The most amusing thing about all of this is that one game later, a criminal mob boss in the form of Aria has tighter security than the galactic f-ing council!

[Get Magna Carter]

Sovereign knows that something is wrong because the Reaper fleet has not arrived

Sovereign does not know why the Reaper fleet has not arrived

Sovereign does not know if the same problem would interfere if Saren tries to activate the relay

Sovereign does not know if the same problem will affect the next cycle.

 

So Sovereign sends Saren to find the answers to these questions.

 

On finding out the answers Sovereign realises that he should have simply had Saren assist as it activated the relay BUT by then it is too late, Saren has been found out and now needs to use the conduit to get the Citadel controls

 

(edited to correct - it's a while since I last played it)

[Lord Kiran]

Sovereign knows that something is wrong because the Reaper fleet has not arrived

Sovereign does not know why the Reaper fleet has not arrived

Sovereign does not know if the same problem would interfere if Saren tries to activate the relay

Sovereign does not know if the same problem will affect the next cycle.

 

So Sovereign sends Saren to find the answers to these questions.

 

On finding out the answers Sovereign realises that he should have simply had Saren activate the relay BUT by then it is too late, Saren has been found out and now needs to use the conduit to get the relay

This all sounds like head canon to me. Also, Sovereign's problem is the keepers arent responding. He has no reason to think that the citadel itself isn't working for some reason (nor does he do anything to try and confirm this for that matter), just the keepers. So with that in mind, common sense dictates you just need to activate it manually.

 

it's like when your internet craps out. You don't just automatically assume it's your computer. Because you have no reason to make that assumption. Because you know there are other variables to account for first before you make that assumption. So basically the plot of ME1 revolves around Saren and Sov. not knowing how to troubleshoot.

[Get Magna Carter]

This all sounds like head canon to me. Also, Sovereign's problem is the keepers arent responding. He has no reason to think that the citadel itself isn't working for some reason (nor does he do anything to try and confirm this for that matter), just the keepers. So with that in mind, common sense dictates you just need to activate it manually.

 

it's like when your internet craps out. You don't just automatically assume it's your computer. Because you have no reason to make that assumption. Because you know there are other variables to account for first before you make that assumption. So basically the plot of ME1 revolves around Saren and Sov. not knowing how to troubleshoot.

When your internet craps out, you (probably) don't assume it's deliberate sabotague...

Sovereign does have reason to believe there was sabotague and does not know the extent of the sabotague (and it may be hard to find out without him flying in to dock with the Citadel tower).

 

Security would probably notice Saren sneaking up to the controls and opening the arms so he would need some support.

Control by indoctrination seems unreliable as it tends to work either by 1) making people go loony/berserk or 2) manipulating the emotions of people so they think they want to do what you want them to do.

The first of these is useful as a distraction but useless for support/covering-fire, etc.

The second can be resisted, especially when making someone do something blatantly contrary to what they would normally do.

So the best support Saren can get is those that can be manipulated through deceit rather than indoctrination - such as the fanatical, religious Geth (heretics) who want to help their "machine-gods" destroy the meat-bags.