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[myahele]

Mythal was know as protecting the World (the great protector), so her being betrayed and killed means the world she protected will become defenseless and thus "betrayed" as well.

 

In her own way, Flemeth has worked to help the world: Yavana says the "blood of dragon is the blood of the world" and she's actively awakening the Ancient Dragons. Then there's dealing with the 5th Blight and potentially saving Urthemiel's soul. In WoT2 marathari came to her seeking vengeance/justice against the Avvar that killed her clan. Seems very similar to what the Ancient Elvhen asks of Mythal.

 

But yeah, other than that who really knows about Flemythal. it's a toss up.

[Deadly dwarf]

I'm just kind of irked that Morrigan is here to stay. Unlike everyone else, I never cared for Morrigan *sigh* but people who find her attractive must be demanding the fan service of refreshing her stay in this universe. Very well.

 

At least in DAI, she seems to have mellowed a bit.  I also liked having another familiar face from Origins.

[Ieldra]

I think people misinterpret Flemeth. 

 

1) She had the power.

2) She had the time.

 

And yet, nothing about vengeance.  Yes, she's bitter... but that's different. She helps stop the Darkspawn.  She saves Hawke. 

 

I think she's bitter, still does love the world and the people in it, and thinks Solas is a tool.  

 

This makes SO much sense because she calls him "Dread Wolf" in their encounter... who calls a "friend" by a 3000 year old insult?  I think she knows he dangerous... and I think she's planned for him.

 

I think the old crone still has a trick up her sleeve (admittedly, it's name is probably Morrigan).

So you think she played him? I'd rather like that. In fact, if it turns out Solas killed her for real, that's - emotionally, for me - a far stronger mark against him than his plans. 

 

I don't think calling him "Dread Wolf" is indicative of that, though. It sounds more like an ironic endearment, and the name is really - yet again - meant for the player, so that we know who he really is. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  This "meant for the player thing" leaves such a sour taste in my mouth... I'm not an idiot, Bioware should not treat me like an idiot.  I cannot abide writing that is so "on the nose".

 

I thought about irony... I just felt that having been 3000 years from the conflict that caused him that name - that it diminished the reason for it to be ironic.  Yes, I know that they're immortals... but, we really have no examples on how immortal sapient beings would act, and I do not like immortal beings locked in their past. 

I think we have two versions... I think we have Solas, who is locked in his past.  He strikes me every bit as the jock who peaked in high school and is looking to recapture some old glory after everyone has moved on.

 

Then, we have Flemeth... who HAS moved on.  Mythal got to be part of Flemeth... HUGE NOTE: Doesn't strike you as interesting that Mythal makes Flemeth immortal?  Yes, she is immortal... and the daughters story was because she knew Solas was coming.  Flemeth is "at least" 600 years old... but there is no recording of the Bann she was reportedly part of.  I think she's far more ancient... even to STILL being the possibility that she was Andraste (after all... a non-mage woman suddenly possessed by a spirit would become a mage presumably)  Her possibly being Andraste is not the "interesting" part to me... it's that these "souls" (spirits) make even humans immortal.  I believe it adds weight to the elves either being spirits or being bound to spirits for their immortality.

 

Whatever the case... I think Flemeth is justice.  NOTE 2:  We say another Justice embodiment in this story that ACTUALLY got turned into vengeance.  Was that a coincidence?  More Bioware being "on the nose" with its comparisons?  Or... is it possible it's actually part of this plot and Justice/Vengeance/Anders somehow tied into the Flemeth storyline?  

 

The woman has been pulling the strings of Thedas for 600 years (at least - I believe it is very obviously far longer).  I think she may have used the term "Dread Wolf" to be clear she considers him dangerous.. not "Solas" who, as he says, he was before he was the Dread Wolf.

 

She KNEW Solas was coming... hence the daughters who she tested and found only one to be worth anything (Morrigan) - it would, for me, be very humbling to Morrigan to find out she just happened to be "right place/right time"... 

 

BUT... will Morrigan get Mythal now?  What, if not Mythal - did Flemeth give Solas?  She sends SOMETHING into the Eluvian before he arrives.  

 

Honesty... I will be REALLY irritated if Flemeth's story was ended by Solas.  

 

SHE is the "not morally good" immortal being I find fascinating on Thedas... however, I still have some problems with her character based solely on borish tropes these types of characters have (like being painfully obtuse at the beginning of DA:O).  

 

And... while I found Morrigan to be boorishly typical at the end of DA:I with the well (for me it's because she had a son which she abandons for power... gross) - I did find her pleasantly wiser in DA:I even if only by small measures.  

 

I would like to see her story continue as well... even if I end up playing second fiddle to her trouncing of the bald rat. 

 

NOTE:  Here's what I actually believe... I believe Morrigan refuses the soul in the story... because your next character will have the soul of Mythal within them so they can be the central focus in stopping Solas.

[straykat]

I still think cutting this from DA2 was a mistake. The choice would have been more interesting with Merrill... or even (female) Hawke.. around. In addition to Morrigan showing up.

[Gervaise]

I don't think that those notes really cover the full extent of how Flemeth/Mythal is involved in the plot.   It is true she does go on about wanting a reckoning, which suggests she's looking for vengeance of some sort, but against whom?   In some ways you could say that Solas was the betrayer of the world in raising the Veil because it changed the nature of what the world should be.   However, I think Mythal is wise enough to know you can't simply drop it again because the world has moved on.

 

She has a different attitude to the Dalish to Solas.   He has no real interest in helping them beyond using them to assist him and like Abelas does not consider them the true People.   Mythal does since she tells Merrill to get up when she bows to her because "the People are too quick to bow the knee" and she tells my Dalish Inquisitor "You do the People proud".     Down through the years Flemeth has been willing to help the Dalish, even though they acknowledge that they should only ask for her assistance if desperate because she is just as likely to kill the supplicant as help them.  That is entirely in keeping with what the codex said about her in her own Temple; she judges the motives of the supplicant and if they are selfish then they are punished, if they are okay then she will do all she can to help them.     Outside of the heroes she has assisted down the years, the Dalish appear to be the only general group that she has assisted, presumably because she admires their efforts to try and recover and remember the past, just as she taught Morrigan to do.   Why go to all that effort if she is going to let Solas destroy the world and everyone in it?    More likely she has been teaching Morrigan and helping the Dalish in order that they will have the knowledge (possibly without knowing it) to either stop him or mitigate the effects on the world.

 

When my Dalish asked her why she hadn't done more for us down the years, she replied that I didn't know what I asked.   That clearly implies that she is holding back from doing as much as she could because of the adverse effects if she did.   Solas' response to the same question would be "I am helping by putting everything back to how it was before, even if you won't be there to see it."   I'm pretty sure that "I'm sorry too" to Solas was because ultimately she is going to betray him, hopefully to protect the world from his plan or ensure it is modified in some way that he won't like.   However, it could also be because she placed a geas on him in the past which compels him to act as he does.

[Medhia_Nox]

I don't think that those notes really cover the full extent of how Flemeth/Mythal is involved in the plot.   It is true she does go on about wanting a reckoning, which suggests she's looking for vengeance of some sort, but against whom?   In some ways you could say that Solas was the betrayer of the world in raising the Veil because it changed the nature of what the world should be.   However, I think Mythal is wise enough to know you can't simply drop it again because the world has moved on.

 

She has a different attitude to the Dalish to Solas.   He has no real interest in helping them beyond using them to assist him and like Abelas does not consider them the true People.   Mythal does since she tells Merrill to get up when she bows to her because "the People are too quick to bow the knee" and she tells my Dalish Inquisitor "You do the People proud".     Down through the years Flemeth has been willing to help the Dalish, even though they acknowledge that they should only ask for her assistance if desperate because she is just as likely to kill the supplicant as help them.  That is entirely in keeping with what the codex said about her in her own Temple; she judges the motives of the supplicant and if they are selfish then they are punished, if they are okay then she will do all she can to help them.     Outside of the heroes she has assisted down the years, the Dalish appear to be the only general group that she has assisted, presumably because she admires their efforts to try and recover and remember the past, just as she taught Morrigan to do.   Why go to all that effort if she is going to let Solas destroy the world and everyone in it?    More likely she has been teaching Morrigan and helping the Dalish in order that they will have the knowledge (possibly without knowing it) to either stop him or mitigate the effects on the world.

 

When my Dalish asked her why she hadn't done more for us down the years, she replied that I didn't know what I asked.   That clearly implies that she is holding back from doing as much as she could because of the adverse effects if she did.   Solas' response to the same question would be "I am helping by putting everything back to how it was before, even if you won't be there to see it."   I'm pretty sure that "I'm sorry too" to Solas was because ultimately she is going to betray him, hopefully to protect the world from his plan or ensure it is modified in some way that he won't like.   However, it could also be because she placed a geas on him in the past which compels him to act as he does.

 

Yes, I got the exact same impression.

 

"I'm sorry..."  "that I have to royally whoop your ass and destroy you forever because you're so blind you can't see the truth."  

 

That's the impression I got... that to stop Solas, she's going to have to make something "permanent". 

 

Perhaps she will destroy all means of the Veil ever being brought down... or, simply annihilate Solas forever.  

[Hellion Rex]

This makes SO much sense because she calls him "Dread Wolf" in their encounter... who calls a "friend" by a 3000 year old insult?  I think she knows he dangerous... and I think she's planned for him.

 

I really love this interpretation of their encounter. 

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I really love this interpretation of their encounter.

Which is obviously wrong because Dread wolf in Arlathan was not an insult.
Also she call him friend.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Donquijote family:  It was something his enemies called him and he took it as a badge of Pride (funny since Solas means Pride)...

 

And the way she says "old friend" is FAR more ironic than the way she says Dread Wolf.

 

She says it at a moment just before he's about to kill her...

 

I believe it's because she knows what she has planned.

[Abyss108]

@Donquijote family:  It was something his enemies called him and he took it as a badge of Pride (funny since Solas means Pride)...

 

And the way she says "old friend" is FAR more ironic than the way she says Dread Wolf.

 

She says it at a moment just before he's about to kill her...

 

I believe it's because she knows what she has planned.

 

 

As much as I agree that Solas/Flemeth are not on the same side, there was nothing ironic in the way she said any of those lines. She said them sadly, like she regrets what is going to happen. 

 

As other people have pointed out, and no matter how much you hate it, the "dread wolf" line was put in as a reveal to the player. That was the entire point of the epilogue. It also makes perfect sense that she would call him by the name he used to use and likes - she hasn't seen him since then, she might not even know he now goes by "Solas" again. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Abyss108:  Yes, it is completely possible Bioware's writing is so basic. 

 

Of course... there is the fact that she knew he would come... so, it is "kind of" odd that she didn't also know which name he's going by.

 

But - we ALL see what we want to with these scenes... since none of us actually wrote them.

[Abyss108]

If I was seeing what I wanted to see, I wouldn't be seeing Mythal as being against Solas...   That lady is terrifying and I don't want to have to go against her... I won't win that fight...

[Medhia_Nox]

@Abyss108:  Well, I can't wait until she crushes him. 

 

Though, as I mentioned recently... I think the next PC is getting Mythal's spirit bound to them to kick Solas' but. 

[Abyss108]

Ugh, no more super special protagonists please. We already had a game where people worshipped you, I don't want to literally be a God next time.

[DragonAgeLegend]

Kind of regret reading this now lol. 

[Sifr]

Regarding Flemeth's help with the Darkspawn, was it really altruistic?  Or did she and Morrigan provide assistance so that they could ultimately capture the soul of an Old God via the Dark Ritual?  (For Morrigan, that's clearly the case.  For Flemeth, it would seem likely, but I don't know for sure.)

 

Regarding Hawke, her help comes in exchange for helping her escape Morrigan's assassination by proxy.  (Has there ever been a thorough discussion of Flemeth's ability to predict the future?)

 

She seems to know enough about the future that allows her to nudge (or push) history in the right direction, as she says. It could be that she's using her ability to actively manipulate history to follow the path she most desires it take, kind of like Asimov's Psychohistory in the Foundation series.

 

Otherwise she can only make small changes, but is ultimately "a puppet who can see the strings" as Doctor Manhattan would put it. Some of her lines such as "So long as the music plays, we dance" and "Is it fate or chance, I can never decide?" seem to imply that she is as much bound by history as anyone else, just has greater understanding of the path it can (and should) take.

[Gervaise]

What was also annoying is that when you meet her (either at her Grove or in the Fade) you know she is Mythal, so my question to her, particularly as a Dalish, would have been "Who killed you?".    All this time my People have been under the impression that she was locked up with the rest of them but it turns out she wasn't but was murdered before that happened.   At this point we still think of them as gods; so knowing who was able to kill this god would be worth something.

 

Then in Trespasser the elven gods are renamed the Evanuris and Solas tells us they were collectively responsible for her death.   Which ones?   The Creators, the Forgotten Ones, some of them, all of them?   Meanwhile I have discovered a text, apparently left by the Evanruis (still not positively identified) that warns against Fen'Harel and describes him just as we knew him when he first came to us, a humble wanderer, who knows much of the People, who offers advice that seems fair but turns slowly to poison.   When did they write that, before or after Mythal's death?     Did he rebel against their rule before it and then move to more drastic action afterwards?    Or did he only rebel after her death.    What was his connection to Mythal?    "I suspect you have questions."   Yes, but I never get to ask the ones that I want to.  

[Medhia_Nox]

Ugh, no more super special protagonists please. We already had a game where people worshipped you, I don't want to literally be a God next time.

 

You're going to potentially beat a god in the next game... there's NOTHING they can portray that doesn't make you "super special protagonist". 

 

"Plucky adventurer" doing the impossible is so insipid.  

 

Though - I suppose if you want Morrigan to be the main character of the next game while you're her toady... I guess that's cool for you.  I don't do toady.  

[Gervaise]

Well they have put the option in there of "redeeming him" (which I hate) but that does leave the scope for someone simply being very, very, good at persuasion.   Back in the old days of  Planescape:Torment if you opted to develop your character as high on wisdom and made all the right choices as you went through, there was the option at the end to simply use reason to make the enemy back down and surrender instead of having to fight them.   I rather enjoyed that and it came as an original alternative to simply being the person able to bash the hardest.   Can you imagine the satisfaction you would have if you managed to talk Solas round so that he actually admitted that he was "wrong" and his plan was "Sh**"?   Any damn fool can use a big sword or more likely some other uber weapon, but I merely used my brains and outwitted the Trickster.