252 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

 

 

But seriously, I don't really care.  It is probably better for some newer players to stay away from characters without a dodge though.

[TheN7Penguin]

I'm fairly sure I know what negligible means.  It isn't a hard word to understand.

 

 

Oh yes, most duration cloak PUGs are awful creatures, but it doesn't go for everyone.

 

Genuinely, I have never had a problem with aggro dumping, no matter what side of the tactical cloak I've been on. Never noticed any difference, no matter what difficulty. I've had a few platinum games while playing a non-infiltrator in a team full of infiltrators... noticed nothing. Might be me being unobservant, but I definitely didn't notice a difference.

 

I wasn't especially bragging, because it isn't in my nature. Just using it to show that duration is still an effective way to spec tactical cloak.

 

The best thing for a PUG would be to put the team out of its misery

 

I kind of think it's maybe 30% for the team, and 70% for me, but not because of the aggro dump, because as I said I never noticed it at all.  Duration works better for the way I play. I've tried damage quite a lot, even on the QFI... but I never do as well as I do with duration, which sounds really odd but there we go. So yes, I do kill more enemies and get a higher score while dealing less damage.

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT LOGIC IS ABOUT.

[Urizen]

1.) There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing duration over damage. Both are perfectly viable ways of speccing into tactical cloak. Each evolution would change the way you play to some degree. For example, taking damage would be far more suitable for someone who was not going to complete objectives, and would instead provide covering fire, because more damage = better at taking down enemies, but less effective at objectives. That is a fact. Choosing duration makes you more effective at revives and doing objectives, and slightly less effective at taking down enemies.

2.) Talking about aggro dumping - choosing duration over damage has a negligible effect. Tactical cloak in general has barely any effect on the aggro received by team mates - it has some, but nothing game-altering. If you choose duration, we're talking about 6 seconds more aggro. Six seconds. That's barely any time at all, even in a video game. As I said, negligible. In platinum, with two or three infiltrators... maybe the effect would be greater. But gold with one or two? Nope.

3.) At the end of the day, it's up to a person which one they want to spec into. Both are effective, and both are viable. There's no point in complaining about people not speccing into damage and choosing duration instead, when it's an entirely personal choice.

I, personally, always choose duration. Does it stop me killing enemies effectively? No. Does it stop me from doing gold solos? Nope. Does it stop me being at the top of the leaderboard in 99.999% of games I play? No. And given that I, personally, find duration quite useful - especially when doing objectives - I'm certain that I would do better with duration than I would damage. It works.

 

1.) I have to agree with this. While damage cloak never hindered my effectivity much in the situations you described, generally speaking it is very true. There was the occasional time where I wished I had specced for duration, but 99% of the time it is just not necessary. Not to mention that I know exactly when I´m done reviving, allowing me to break cloak on my terms and not the games. How about a cloak boosted claymoar to da face Pyro?

2.) Funny that you mentioned platinum. Remember that I said that up to gold, duration doesn´t pose much of a problem to your teammates. On plat however, that can change in a matter of a second. When your teammates are facing down two banshees and 3 fantums, I can guarantee you that atleast one of them will go down. And those are the 6 more seconds you were referring to. But that´s not it. Most Pugs tend to go after big juicy targets like Atlasses and whatnot, only to get overrun by Hunters and Pyros and Bombers, all the annoying small stuff they overlook. My 5 second cloak could have drawn one or more of those away from them, your 11 second cloak won´t.

3.) Yes, it is a personal choice. But bragging about topscoring with a Winfiltrator? Sorry, if you can´t score high with a winfiltrator, you are doing something fundamental very wrong.

[Al Swearengen of Deadwood]

 
 
But seriously, I don't really care.  It is probably better for some newer players to stay away from characters without a dodge though.

Gary Oldman, awesome is all I can say

[LightRobot]

 

Also can we please cut the **** about how duration cloak is about teamplay and damage cloak is selfish?

 

Funny enough, I just got a quick reminder of the very issue.

 

I start a lobby : U/U/Platinum, after 5mn of waiting I finally get a teammate : AIU Reegar

I've had terrible experiences with pug in the past few days on platinum lobbies , so I'm with my go-to guy TGI Reegar.

 

I figure I don't want to enter a scoring competition and maybe it's better if I pick another kit, I go with Tsent arc Pistol.

After another 5 minutes no one's else joining, AIU presses ready, I wait one more minute then follow. Obviously, we never got another player.

 

We land on Condor....luckily it's Reapers. I soon find out that AIU has TC on duration and is using it abundantly. 

He doesn't have cyclonic mod so he is relying heavily on stim packs. 

Meaning he spent most of his time cloaking and running around the map from ammo boxes to ammo boxes, leaving me to fend for myself surrounded by hords of ennemies.

 

I was in bad spots many times , tried to escape but when you're surrounded by multiple phantoms, few marauders in the background,

ravagers far away, banshees, and every single one of these guys decide to fire at you... let's say the distance to the next cover seems painfully long.

 

I don't think he was fully aware of how difficult he made it for me, and it looked like he was trying to survive himself. 

I died 3 or 4 times between wave 1 and 9, he revived me every time and I'm thankfull for it, but I could have saved a few ops pack if he had played smarter. Because of the cloak, he could manouevre easily and go where he wanted, he could have used this to take care of annoying ennemies and maybe stick with me a little to help we with banshees and stuff but he didn't. Instead, I was fending for myself most of the game while he was at the other side of the map.

 

We got center-zone hack on wave 10, I still have 5 rockets, 6 gels, 2 ops pack. Since it's AIU I don't even know how many gels he has.

We start the hack, get swarmed 10 seconds later, I make a run for it, he decides to stay, and dies.

I try to lure ennemies away, but really who am I kidding, between banshees, primes and all the mooks I can't perform a miracle.

I still try and come back cobra in hand to revive him, I die in the process, and he bleeds out.

I managed to escape and give it another go but I died a clean death in the arms of a banshee, not sync-killed, two gels left but somehow I couldn't use them. I reckon I needed 15 more seconds to finish it.

 

So yeah, I'm a user of duration on TC on some kits, it can save lives.. it can also end them.

[TheN7Penguin]

1.) I have to agree with this. While damage cloak never hindered my effectivity much in the situations you described, generally speaking it is very true. There was the occasional time where I wished I had specced for duration, but 99% of the time it is just not necessary. Not to mention that I know exactly when I´m done reviving, allowing me to break cloak on my terms and not the games. How about a cloak boosted claymoar to da face Pyro?

2.) Funny that you mentioned platinum. Remember that I said that up to gold, duration doesn´t pose much of a problem to your teammates. On plat however, that can change in a matter of a second. When your teammates are facing down two banshees and 3 fantums, I can guarantee you that atleast one of them will go down. And those are the 6 more seconds you were referring to. But that´s not it. Most Pugs tend to go after big juicy targets like Atlasses and whatnot, only to get overrun by Hunters and Pyros and Bombers, all the annoying small stuff they overlook. My 5 second cloak could have drawn one or more of those away from them, your 11 second cloak won´t.

3.) Yes, it is a personal choice. But bragging about topscoring with a Winfiltrator? Sorry, if you can´t score high with a winfiltrator, you are doing something fundamental very wrong.

 

As I said - not bragging. Using it to further my point.

 

I spec for duration, and I've never had a moment where I wanted to do more damage. Weird.

 

I predominantly play gold and platinum... never really noticed anything. As I said, it might just be me being completely un-observant, but I can only go off my own experiences. I've had many platinum lobbies which have been purely infiltrators (when I've been playing Turians at the time) and I didn't notice any more aggro on me, when at least two of the three infiltrators chose duration. Maybe I entered a lag world when the aggro was supposed to take place... that happens a lot.

[Urizen]

As I said - not bragging. Using it to further my point.

 

I spec for duration, and I've never had a moment where I wanted to do more damage. Weird.

 

I predominantly play gold and platinum... never really noticed anything. As I said, it might just be me being completely un-observant, but I can only go off my own experiences. I've had many platinum lobbies which have been purely infiltrators (when I've been playing Turians at the time) and I didn't notice any more aggro on me, when at least two of the three infiltrators chose duration. Maybe I entered a lag world when the aggro was supposed to take place... that happens a lot.

 

Your second post came around while I was typing, so at that time it seemed like bragging.

 

I find that odd when you say you predominantly play gold and plat. On the latter every little bit of damage helps. It is the difference between annoying a Banshee and killing her ( to exaggerate a bit here).

 

If your pugs behave similarly to mine, they engage TC and immediately disengage. On rare occasions it dumps aggro, but most of the time it won´t. But I´ve seen firsthand the damage duration cloak can do and I was the one doing it. It was London/don´t remember/Plat. We got devices on w10. I was playing my Shadow and was lucky to have made it that far. I so rarely play the Shadow, that my decisionmaking is questionable at best, suicidal at worst. Anyway, I go for devices, stay out of sight, engage cloak and disable #1, #2 and #3. Whilst doing #3, one pug gets himself synced just when I started. The other 2 quickly follow suit and get instastomped. And that all in those 11 secs I was cloaked. Irregardless of cloak evo chosen, that sync would have happened anyway. But the instastomps? Possibly, but not necessarily. My damage cloak would have broken just before they got killed, that might have drawn them away and allowed me to revive them. I got the last device done, but barely was up before I got myself synced by a banshee.

 

What I just described could have easily happened on w3 on the first device. I can clutch gold waves most of the time quite easily, so even if my duration cloak got my team killed in such a situation, I can make up for it in the continuation of the match. I can at best however duo clutch a wave in plat. So, sorry, I´m not putting the complete match at stake, when I can get the job done just as fine with a damage cloak. And with Infiltrators I´m not always the one doing devices either. And the damage cloak allows me to force a banshee out of her warping faster than a non damage cloak. And that will be the difference between an interrupted and a completed device.

[GruntKitterhand]

I'm fairly sure I know what negligible means.  It isn't a hard word to understand.

 

From that part of your response it is not inconceivable, however, that you haven't seen The Princess Bride, as I was simply paraphrasing it, not calling your intelligence into question. 

 

I can only really add that I think I've become increasingly attuned to 'aggro dump' as I've become more experienced. I'm more capable of recognising and dealing with it now, that's all. I'm capable of duoing Plat as a non-dodging non-Infiltrator, along with a damage cloak Infiltrator, but it's not in any way pleasant compared to a non-Infiltrator duo. I really wouldn't even bother trying a Plat duo if I knew in advance my teammate had a duration cloak. Gold I don't really notice too much tbh, but Plat requires me to be at the upper level of my capabilities in circumstances like I mentioned, even with teammates who are more skilled than me. I don't particularly like having to be at that level, and as such I really don't like the thought of putting other players in a similar situation. I say that as a very, very team-oriented player who has no fecks to give about score, so it has nothing to do with that. But I will defend your right to use whatever works best for you, but you need to stop failing to recognise that it does have occasional negative effects on your team.

[HamleticTortoise]

One of the problems with dumping aggro on teammates by cloaking (I am not talking of the de-cloaking/doing-damage-right-away cycle, which regains the enemies' attention) is that often you will redirect aggro at your teammates from an unexpected direction. Gold matches with three roaming infiltrators become utter chaos for the fourth player, who now cannot predict anymore where the bad guys will come from.

With unexperienced pugs, this becomes apparent even with only one infiltrator in the team: the others will start dropping a lot more from the nasty flanks the infiltrator is inadvertently creating for them. Much of the carrying and frustration experienced when using an inf with a weak team can be avoided IMO (and experience) by staying closer to the team, and using your talents to enhance the survivability of the whole team, and not just yourself. This might result in a lower score/longer match, and some matches just can't be salvaged, but it bears remembering that cloak might help you and hinder the others simultaneously

Incidentally, aggro dump is less of a problem when playing with good voluses, who actually tend to stick close to the team and not wander off too much: their aggro dump is not really noticeable, because it redirects damage my way from sources I can see/predict. That, or they are VolSents, and their pets are absorbing a lot more aggro than the little guy is dumping anyway

[Mordokai]

I don't play Shadow... lag issues and bad connectibility. If I would, I can see how duration cloak would be beneficial to her. Other than that... I just fail to see the point of taking duration evo. I mainly use my infiltrators to cloak, shoot/cast power, shoot some more, repeat. I rarely spend more than a second or two cloaked, other than doing devices or reviving and even then, I never felt the need for more time.

 

Yeah, there are times when I use cloak to run away, but they are pretty rare. If one does that often, under full duration of cloak, I can see how it becomes annoying. I've seen some players do that while spectating them, watching them running from banshee across entire Glacier, multiple times. Tedious... wouldn't it be so much better to turn around and let her have with more damage?

 

In short, personal preferences play a factor. But I just can't see point to taking duration over damage like... almost ever. And in all of my almost 700 hours of playing, I never felt the need for that extra time spent under cloak.

[Ashevajak]

I used to occasionally spec duration, so I could dump aggro on terrible pugs and watch them die.

This was in the good old days, before we could just lock people in the reactor or throw an Abomb at them.

[TheN7Penguin]

Your second post came around while I was typing, so at that time it seemed like bragging.

 

I find that odd when you say you predominantly play gold and plat. On the latter every little bit of damage helps. It is the difference between annoying a Banshee and killing her ( to exaggerate a bit here).

 

Ah, yes, I didn't mention this - I have a condition. A gaming condition. Ever since I started playing shooters, I've been picking inefficient ways of killing things and doing quite well with it.

Just go with my logic. I don't do it on purpose.

[PatrickBateman]

Damage on rank 4 is the way to go with infiltrators, it's hard to argue against that.

It's a horde mode game after all with predefined spawn budgets, you win it by killing the enemy, and the faster you do that the less the risk of something going wrong.

There is imo only one infiltrator build that actually benefits from duration, the N7 Shadow with an shadow strike build, if you take bonus power in rank 6 you will then be able to do 2 shadow strikes during a single cloak duration. For all other infiltrators I consider duration to be a bit of a waste as you want to cloak as frequently as possible for the damage bonus.

[xassantex]

i'm always grateful to find a lobby within 15 seconds, the rest is irrelevant

[Teabaggin Krogan]

Ah, yes, I didn't mention this - I have a condition. A gaming condition. Ever since I started playing shooters, I've been picking inefficient ways of killing things and doing quite well with it.

Just go with my logic. I don't do it on purpose.

 

Yeah I have this condition as well, using unconventional, inefficient and sometimes just plain silly setups and trying to make them work! Like using sniper rifles in cqc, trying to get exclusively pistol and melee kills in fps shooters, playing a biotic as a weapons platform, suicide kills, roleplay builds and so on. 

 

Seems crazy but I find it a lot of fun seeing if I can make them work and the challenge that comes with that. And I'm a bit stubborn when it comes to persisting with wacky ideas, as long as it isn't harming anyone else directly. I tend to do this on almost every game I play.

 

I also have this silly reasoning for skipping damage options in powers, which is that I just need to put a couple more rounds in the enemy, no biggie. But when it comes to tactical cloak, I always choose damage, because that 40% extra damage boost is huge! I don't really need an invisibility cloak to help me survive and the damage bonus is just too sweet to pass up here. 

[TheN7Penguin]

Yeah I have this condition as well, using unconventional, inefficient and sometimes just plain silly setups and trying to make them work! Like using sniper rifles in cqc, trying to get exclusively pistol and melee kills in fps shooters, playing a biotic as a weapons platform, suicide kills, roleplay builds and so on. 

 

Seems crazy but I find it a lot of fun seeing if I can make them work and the challenge that comes with that. And I'm a bit stubborn when it comes to persisting with wacky ideas, as long as it isn't harming anyone else directly. I tend to do this on almost every game I play.

 

I also have this silly reasoning for skipping damage options in powers, which is that I just need to put a couple more rounds in the enemy, no biggie. But when it comes to tactical cloak, I always choose damage, because that 40% extra damage boost is huge! I don't really need an invisibility cloak to help me survive and the damage bonus is just too sweet to pass up here. 

 

 

Another afflicted!

 

I do better with inefficient kits and weapons than efficient ones... always been that way. Always. It's not a case of getting them to work... they just work for me.

 

I gave the condition a name when speaking to my friend.

 

I call it Inefficticus Type One. Type two is when you use inefficient kits and are terrible with them. Most PUGs suffer from type two.

[Quarian Master Race]

I don't understand the duration spec on cloak either. It's one of those options that just doesn't make any sense given the most efficient way to play an infiltrator is to break cloak as soon as you engage it, and duration doesn't fundamentally change that playstyle in any meaningful way. You'll only use the remaining 6 seconds if A) you need to get through a huge horde of enemies to revive a stupid teammate (which I usually don't bother with if they aren't helping finish the wave anyway. You have gels, and I'm not a babysitter) or B ) you position badly and need to run away from a mob (which I rarely do because it's annoying to teammates, and damage cloak probably would have helped kill the mob faster anyway). It doesn't even really help on devices unless you are solo. The normal duration is more than enough to complete about 3/4 of it, and if there's an enemy so close that they manage to kill you in the remaining 2 seconds or so after you could potentially aggro them, you're doing it wrong anyway. 

It's a bit like taking duration and recharge speed on a Marksman kit. Sure, it's not completely useless all of the time, but compared to 25% multiplicative headshot damage and 10% more accuracy and fire rate, there's basically no point in ever doing so apart from deliberately gimping yourself without actually making the kit more interesting to play.

Frankly I don't even understand duration on the one kit everyone is advocating it (bonus power Shadow). Many moons ago when I actually sometimes played things other than quarians (and just pretended they were quarians in cosplay anyway), I never had any issue fitting two SSes into one cloak with damage. The 2nd one would sometimes fall out of the actual "cloak" effect, but never the 1.5 seconds of damage boost you still have after, unless you were literally going from one end of the map and back again. Sure, it left you more exposed than duration would, but that's what the increased movement speed, melee DR and shotgun are for. 

They needed to either nerf the damage bonus more or make the duration on damage cloak so short that it was really only useful as a damage boost (2-3 seconds) if duration was to be a viable option. 80% damage (more with snipers), 5.2 seconds+ an extra 2 seconds or so before the enemy can aggro you gives damage cloak way too much utility.

[MaxCrushmore]

IMO duration cloak has 1 purpose, to complete one of the brutal device locations in a solo or with an incompetent group. I would never bother though, you have to sacrifice too much damage

[q5tyhj]

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing duration over damage. 

[Xetto]

I mostly go duration aswell, the exception being oneshot wonders as javelin GI and Claymore infiltrator, or powerdmg stacking on the huntress.

It mostly comes down to  - "do i need one or 2 shots to kill this and that", for me, and the majority of stuff is killable with 1 shot to the head with all the "highohmfh" weapons in the game even outside stealth.

If the player is good it matters little, it all comes down to preference. 

ohh and on topic: I ****** hate smashnoobs and heavy-weapon-adept-dude-types. 

[Arkhne]

I'm just going to give a highlight from the day before yesterday, 5 device missions in a row. This is why I take duration people, call it RNG all you like, but it happens often enough for me to account for it. I never stay under cloak unless it is on a device, but I will sacrifice a little damage for these inevitable bastards. I trust my team, but I don't trust the enemy they cheat hardcore on PS3. All of you whining about aggro dump, if it's about idiots staying cloaked any running around, that's one thing, it's idiots being idiots. However, wouldn't you rather the otherwise squishy infiltrator doing the device or reviving to NOT be the target of the enemy aggro? Infiltrators as a class (ignoring AIU and TGI) are amoung the squishies kits in the game (Health/Shields wise). If the Infiltrator dies the moment before the device is done, it needs to be done again.

 

TL;DR Using cloak wrong is using cloak wrong, regardless of spec.

[7twozero]

You're having fun wrong

[Mordokai]

ohh and on topic: I ****** hate smashnoobs and heavy-weapon-adept-dude-types. 

 

My Claymore wielding vanilla humandept and asaridept would like to have a word with you.

[Xetto]

My Claymore wielding vanilla humandept and asaridept would like to have a word with you.

That might say more about the claymore than it does your depts. 
 

[PatrickBateman]

I'm just going to give a highlight from the day before yesterday, 5 device missions in a row. This is why I take duration people, call it RNG all you like, but it happens often enough for me to account for it. I never stay under cloak unless it is on a device, but I will sacrifice a little damage for these inevitable bastards. I trust my team, but I don't trust the enemy they cheat hardcore on PS3. All of you whining about aggro dump, if it's about idiots staying cloaked any running around, that's one thing, it's idiots being idiots. However, wouldn't you rather the otherwise squishy infiltrator doing the device or reviving to NOT be the target of the enemy aggro? Infiltrators as a class (ignoring AIU and TGI) are amoung the squishies kits in the game (Health/Shields wise). If the Infiltrator dies the moment before the device is done, it needs to be done again.

TL;DR Using cloak wrong is using cloak wrong, regardless of spec.

I've done more platinum solos than any sane person would ever contemplate doing (hey Slasher and Techno!) and I've done wave 10 devices more times than I can remember with so many different kits, duration cloak just isn't needed for it, hell cloak as a power isn't needed for it. The benefit of duration cloak is just maginal at best compared to the damage boost, it's what you want and need. A bad pug game in my experience don't succeed or fail based on specific objective waves, a bad pug game will end with wave 3 escort if your team just have no idea what to do.