847 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

I think they made up the Collectors for ME2. Like how they just reinvented cerberus. Bioware clearly had no plan for the series.

 

They were actually going to be ME1 DLC apparently. At least, they were going to introduce them first there.

[correctamundo]

They were actually going to be ME1 DLC apparently. At least, they were going to introduce them first there.

 

I'm guessing they decided to push them to ME2 because they wanted to change the gameplay as well?

[Giantdeathrobot]

Except Bioware RPGs for the most part don't have the drastic branching paths like Witcher does. A choice that alters the story is also one that defines my character. I could care less about the alignment approach of DnD which was ever present in ME2, and did not really make it a better role play experience. You basically got two types- saint or dickhead - and little in between. 

 

TW2 is the only one that had any significant story branching, via Roche or Iorveth's paths. Inquisition had more of a branching narrative than either TW1 or TW3 thanks to the mage vs templar choice. So I'm not really sure where that affirmation comes from, personally.

 

Saint vs *******was a problem in Mass Effect, true. Which is why I'd like for Paragon and Renegeade to be tossed in the garbage bin. Dragon Age (and several other RPGs, mostly from Obsidian but still) manage to do away with any sort of karma meters just fine, and I very much prefer that approach.

[Natureguy85]

I think Drew K had a half-assed plan revolving around the human Reaper. They were fascinated with human DNA (especially human biotics) for various space magicky reasons revolving around dark energy. I imagine the Collectors were just a first step in their experiments. It seemed to be an idea well into LotSB, where the Shadow Broker says the Collectors wanted to pay almost as much for Jack as they do Shepard.

 

Once everything just becomes about Shepard only (as it did at the end of ME3 with the Catalyst), there was no need for the Collectors abducting human colonists to begin with. It just played up the whole "Space Jesus" thing, without any particular context.

 

Maybe, but that was cut or scrapped.

 

 

 

I agree that the time between ME2 and ME3 was cut short for whatever reason, I don't see how that makes Arrival and ME1 worthless though? It does give Liara just enought time to uncover the crucial crucible.

 

The first game establishes that the Reapers need the Relay to get into the galaxy. If the Reapers can fly into the galaxy in only a few years time, as they ultimately do, then they have no need for the Citadel Relay, which means Sovereign's plan from the first game was unnecessary. Then it's only a few more months to get to the next closest Relay after the Alpha Relay is destroyed. I guess you're right about those few months giving Liara time to find the Contrivance, I mean Crucible. Shepard should have found that, probably in ME2. The relevant part of the link is "Shepard has no agency."

 

They were actually going to be ME1 DLC apparently. At least, they were going to introduce them first there.

 

Really? That would have helped a lot. Had they acted like the Collectors just showed up in the 2 years Shepard was dead it would have been fine, but Miranda and Jacob talk like they've been around awhile so I was annoyed that they knew about them and Shepard really doesn't.

[straykat]

I'm guessing they decided to push them to ME2 because they wanted to change the gameplay as well?

 

Maybe so. I don't know. Back then, Hudson sounded more ambitious about ME1 DLC. I think they planned more in general. Not sure what held them back, since ME2 was a pretty extensive game.

[correctamundo]

@natureguy: Do we really know how the reapers got into the MW? All I can recall is that they hit Batarian space first. And their defense was overrun by Trojan horses and fifth columns. Once there the reapers can jump anywhere. I cannot say that I agree with that Shamus guy that Shepard should be the one who does everything and fixes everything though. I really don't see how being subordinate to Hackett takes away all agency from Shepard. Without Shepards activities the Alliance ends up with 200-300 EMS which is certain failure.

[straykat]

@natureguy: Do we really know how the reapers got into the MW? All I can recall is that they hit Batarian space first. And their defense was overrun by Trojan horses and fifth columns. Once there the reapers can jump anywhere. I cannot say that I agree with that Shamus guy that Shepard should be the one who does everything and fixes everything though. I really don't see how being subordinate to Hackett takes away all agency from Shepard. Without Shepards activities the Alliance ends up with 200-300 EMS which is certain failure.

 

Shamus?

 

Why am I drawing a blank?

[correctamundo]

Shamus?

 

Why am I drawing a blank?

 

Natureguy85's link up there.

[frylock23]

Honestly, whatever they do with Andromeda, I hope the first step was to sit down and rough out their story outline across all the games they plan to make so that all the silly little inconsistencies we notice across ME, ME2 and ME3 can be mostly avoided. I would rather they have some storyline ciffhangers that potentially never get solved because the series flops and we never get the next installments than a game series that consistently contradicts itself because no one thought it was going to have sequals and didn't bother learning enough to take the previous story lore into account.

[sjsharp2011]

After Sovereigns failure in ME1 they activate two back-up plans in ME2 that Shepard again thwarts. Thus buying the galaxy time to uncover the crucial information that necessitates survival. That is more or less the short version of my view on the subject.

Exactly the back up plans aer the change in tactics that was what I was trying to say

[straykat]

Natureguy85's link up there.

 

Oh, I thought it was some character in the game.

 

As for that subject, I was half-hoping Shepard functioned more independently. That last scene in ME2 gave me that impression. I didn't expect ME3 to be an Alliance game per se. I thought they were done with that after ME1. I don't mind Hackett, but I would preferred coordinating with all kinds of allies. And seeing them actually play out and do more missions for them. Like with Aria, for example (they sort of made up there with her DLC though).

[vbibbi]

Touche. But I don't have to actually be face to face with them here!

 

 

 

You're right but what you're talking about is all the side stuff, and I agree that stuff was great. ME2's entire value was in developing the characters. ME2 certainly shifted the series from plot focused to character focused, like Star Wars is. However, that has nothing to do with the main plot. Killing Shepard, destroying the Normandy, expanding Cerberus, and introducing the Collectors had no value whatsoever.

 

Secondly, everything was bound to the individuals. The parts of the game that had to do with the Genophage weren't about the Salarians or even Krogan generally, they were about Mordin. The drama in curing it in ME3 is bound in Mordin and Wrex and, as much as I like Padok Wiks, the entire thing is diminished without those two characters. The same is true of the Rannoch arc with Tali and Legion.

 

 

 

No, you're the one doing that. It objectively did not progress the series plot. Please tell me how it did. Your enjoyment of it is what is subjective opinion. I also enjoyed it but that had nothing to do with the main plot. It had to do with gameplay and the excellent characters.

 

 

 

This is just wrong. The Collectors were building the next Reaper, not doing anything to bring the Reapers back like Sovereign was with the Geth. It wasn't a change in tactics, though. It was something completely unrelated, unless you think they were going to deploy the Human Reaper to try Sovereign's plan again.

 

 

 

That's just you creating your own game within the game. You're defining your own objectives. That's perfectly fine, but that's what it is. That doesn't make the actual game not a game.

 

 

 

The Geth alone are not an arc so I assume you mean the entire Geth/Quarian conflict. Yes, that is developed but not along the main plot. The same is true for the Genophage. What happens with Citadel politics? You have one meeting with the Council. What exactly was developed regarding Turians and Asari?

 

Also, as I mentioned above, the Genophage and Quarian/Geth conflict are particularly focused on the characters, Mordin, Grunt, Talki, Legion, and Wrex. They are not focused on the species as a whole.

 

The difference between ME2 and The Empire Strikes Back is that the film does advance the main story. Star Wars is entirely focused on the characters, with the war against the Empire being the back drop for the character stories. ME2 shifts Mass Effect into a similar story. So the most important things in Empire are Luke training with Yoda and facing Vader. Luke develops and a major plot point is revealed. When does this happen in ME2? Where does Shepard change? What of value do we learn about our opponent? Shepard, and most of the other characters, are barely phased by Shepard's death and resurrection. There's just one line about it in ME3, a game too late.

 

What connections of value, other than Liara as Shadow Broker? Shepard met Aria but while she shows Shepard some respect, she doesn't really care about him/her.

End of ME1: The Reapers are coming to kill us all and we have no way to stop them.

End of ME2: The Reapers are coming to kill us all and we have no way to stop them. Also they are closer now.

 

 

 

That may be but it certainly is not because of the plot.

 

The way that the Reapers are built up, to then realize Bioware didn't actually have a plan on how to deal with them or their motivations, I think ME3 should have been about uniting the galaxy against the oncoming Reapers, rather than having the game start with the Reapers in the MW. The game would remain largely unchanged, as Cerberus could still be working on Control and creating husks, and our goal is to stop them and end the conflicts amongst the species so that we have a united front when the Reapers do arrive.

 

The ending would be where the first Reapers begin arriving on the ends of the MW, cut to Shepard's motivational speech and then roll credits. It would probably still get a lot of fan complaints since the questions on the Reapers aren't answered and we don't see the outcome of the conflict, but IMO I would rather maintain the mystery and hope than have the lackluster explanation and nonsensical outcomes that we currently have.

 

Andromeda would still be unchanged, since there could be a throwaway line about a contingency plan of sending away a portion of each species to colonize new worlds.

 

 

As far as my personal impression goes - no, it doesn't, and no, I don't.  I merely guessed that this was the reason for its existence, other than "Assassin's Creed had something very similar".

 

For me to actually feel in control of the Inquisition would have required different features - like ordering actual troop movements and keep garrisons in game, not in text, with visible effects and consequences.

 

But even then, the fact that the player always fights in the first line with a small team pretty much kills the illusion of being the leader of a big organisation. Which organisation would risk their leader in such a way? Even relatively small forces like modern anti-terror teams don't send in their highest commander with the first wave. So ultimately, I think it was a concept near impossible to achieve because it makes little sense as a whole.

 

Especially since the high command is the only person who can actually close rifts or the Breach.

[straykat]

 

 

Especially since the high command is the only person who can actually close rifts or the Breach.

 

I would rather not have the breach in the first place. This frees up one way to provide more militaristic plots. It'd be more mundane. And if they wanted to do an open world, it'd work better for this idea than it does Corypheus. Where you dealt with the various aftermath stories of DA2/Asunder/Masked Empire.. lots of normal villains where you had to fix Thedas' politics.

 

I get the feeling making it the way they did was as silly as "We need something like the Dragonborn".

[vbibbi]

I would rather not have the breach in the first place. This frees up one way to provide more militaristic plots. It'd be more mundane. And if they wanted to do an open world, it'd work better for this idea than it does Corypheus. Where you dealt with the various aftermath stories of DA2/Asunder/Masked Empire.. lots of normal villains where you had to fix Thedas' politics.
 
I get the feeling making it the way they did was as silly as "We need something like the Dragonborn".

I don't mind Corypheus being included, though I'd like him to be better used, but he could have just been the mastermind figure behind everything without needing the Breach if we're going for a more mundane plot. It would be interesting if the Venatori made it look like Tevinter was organizing everything rather than a splinter radical group, make the politics of mages and Templars and the civil war build up to an arms race with Tevinter.

But then, there had to be some kind of magical cataclysm to kill the Divine and much of the Chantry leadership, and to build up to Solas' plot. And that seems to have been the plan from the beginning of the series so I don't know how they could have taken out a significant amount of the magic aspects of the story.

[straykat]

I don't mind Corypheus being included, though I'd like him to be better used, but he could have just been the mastermind figure behind everything without needing the Breach if we're going for a more mundane plot. It would be interesting if the Venatori made it look like Tevinter was organizing everything rather than a splinter radical group, make the politics of mages and Templars and the civil war build up to an arms race with Tevinter.

But then, there had to be some kind of magical cataclysm to kill the Divine and much of the Chantry leadership, and to build up to Solas' plot. And that seems to have been the plan from the beginning of the series so I don't know how they could have taken out a significant amount of the magic aspects of the story.

 

I suppose you're right about the cataclysm. Huh.

 

Although even that could have been mundane, in the way it was done. As in, normal mages doing it.. or Templars framing mages to gain support for their side. And you end up playing an ACTUAL Inquisitor. As in, an investigative/inquisitorial figure...who breaks legs to find the truth.

 

But no, we had to be Spehsul too. Because Bioware thinks we're little kids who need coddling and massive hero fantasies... especially after ME3.

[In Exile]

I don't mind Corypheus being included, though I'd like him to be better used, but he could have just been the mastermind figure behind everything without needing the Breach if we're going for a more mundane plot. It would be interesting if the Venatori made it look like Tevinter was organizing everything rather than a splinter radical group, make the politics of mages and Templars and the civil war build up to an arms race with Tevinter.

But then, there had to be some kind of magical cataclysm to kill the Divine and much of the Chantry leadership, and to build up to Solas' plot. And that seems to have been the plan from the beginning of the series so I don't know how they could have taken out a significant amount of the magic aspects of the story.

 

The point of Corypheus is to show what we expect a villain like Solas to be - a malevolent (and probably insane) entity that wants to destroy the world. Corypheus is the trope - Solas is the deconstruction. 

[straykat]

The point of Corypheus is to show what we expect a villain like Solas to be - a malevolent (and probably insane) entity that wants to destroy the world. Corypheus is the trope - Solas is the deconstruction. 

 

They both suck. Solas never worked for me from the beginning. I hated him once he talked about spirits. I've stuck with the series long enough to know where that was going.

[In Exile]

They both suck. Solas never worked for me from the beginning. I hated him once he talked about spirits. I've stuck with the series long enough to know where that was going.

 

I don't think you're supposed to like him - just to see a variant of the trope where the villain tries to destroy the world. Anyway, Tales of Phantasia did it first with Dhaos. 

[straykat]

I don't think you're supposed to like him - just to see a variant of the trope where the villain tries to destroy the world. Anyway, Tales of Phantasia did it first with Dhaos. 

 

Never played it.. but I guess I agree then. To me, what he little he says in the beginning is radical and disastrous.. I can tell he'd rather see a different world order. It bothers me.

 

And I'm too much of a... vapid, sensory type of person.. to appreciate eggheads. I think?

[vbibbi]

The point of Corypheus is to show what we expect a villain like Solas to be - a malevolent (and probably insane) entity that wants to destroy the world. Corypheus is the trope - Solas is the deconstruction. 

 

Yes, but unfortunately the dark mirror is weakened by only showing Solas as the reflection in hindsight and (presumably) in DA4. It might have worked better if Solas has been the final antagonist in DAI like the original plan, and maybe that's why Corypheus didn't have as large a role in the game as he could have had.

[In Exile]

Never played it.. but I guess I agree then. To me, what he little he says in the beginning is radical and disastrous.. I can tell he'd rather see a different world order. It bothers me.

 

And I'm too much of a... vapid, sensory type of person.. to appreciate eggheads. I think?

 

The short of it is that Dhaos, the villain bent on world-wide destruction, is actually doing it all to save his own dying world. It's a bittersweet ending in that regard.

 

Yes, but unfortunately the dark mirror is weakened by only showing Solas as the reflection in hindsight and (presumably) in DA4. It might have worked better if Solas has been the final antagonist in DAI like the original plan, and maybe that's why Corypheus didn't have as large a role in the game as he could have had.

 

I don't think we know that's the original plan. Bioware saying DA:I was planned to be twice as large could mean more content for the same end. But I agree with the idea that Corypheus was not fleshed out because Solas was the conceptual endgame. 

[straykat]

The other thing I want to get out of the way is those epic plots make a world small real quick. DA has potential to be like D&D with decades worth of stories. Maybe (big maybe). But not if they blow so much away with drastic events.

 

Same goes for Mass Effect. That's why I'm weary of this new one.

[In Exile]

The other thing I want to get out of the way is those epic plots make a world small real quick. DA has potential to be like D&D with decades worth of stories. Maybe. But not if they blow so much away with drastic events.

 

Same goes for Mass Effect.

 

I think DA has, basically, an escalating plot. They just spread it out over a longer period of time, and we play smaller slices of the single epic story in each game. It's why each plot feels like a big red herring for the most part. 

[straykat]

I think DA has, basically, an escalating plot. They just spread it out over a longer period of time, and we play smaller slices of the single epic story in each game. It's why each plot feels like a big red herring for the most part. 

 

Maybe you're right, but I think DA2 slowed things down.. That kind of atmosphere is much more to my tastes. They could tell me more about guard captains and pirate queens, and I'd be happy. I would have been happy just playing Shepard like a bad cop on Omega.

[rashie]

The point of Corypheus is to show what we expect a villain like Solas to be - a malevolent (and probably insane) entity that wants to destroy the world. Corypheus is the trope - Solas is the deconstruction. 

Even as a standard villain Corypheus is pretty terrible. He comes across as a joke and is not nearly menacing enough for the chaotic evil villain he is meant to be.