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[SNascimento]

ME2 is the best game of the series, that's a widely recognized fact. 

[straykat]

They will create a story that is cinematically the same length as DAI but slightly better contextualize it in the exploration aspect (hopefully) and make more complete companion subplots. I hope that's how it turns out.

 

There's no way we're looking at a ME2/3-like campaign approach though. It's not going to be 20 hours of epic setpieces and movie-like cinematics all the time, I don't think. Being an "exploration-driven" game there has to be some kind of tradeoff.

 

I wish Bioware had the guts to lower their presentation like in ME1 or DAO just to excuse creating more cutscenes in lower fidelity though. I know part of the reason they skimp on their cinematics is because they have to look proper (even though they don't anyway) and movie-like and that is a lot of resources that goes into that, so there are other areas where spending money is more precious for total gameplay value.

 

Also, bear in mind that if all cutscenes of DA:I had been great and the overarching story had been amazing I would've loved DA:I. The reason I don't is because it was this jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none kind of game where it had a story that felt shallow, then it had companion quests that were even more shallow, the companions themselves weren't developed enough, the protagonist wasn't developed, the antagonist was a joke, the dramaturgy was completely bonkers throughout the entire thing and then there was the 60-hour MMO fetch quest that at least did what it was trying to do to great effect but ultimately isn't for me.

 

I don't really mind the lack of cutscenes, if that's what exploration does to the game.

 

I think of these cinematic designers the same as film directors. Some are talented, some I don't give much thought to. So it's not like I care for cinematics themselves.. but the talent behind them. The guy who did ME2 has been gone for awhile, but he was extremely talented. It's not like I'm gonna get anything like he did... unless he came back.

[Elhanan]

ME2 is the best game of the series, that's a widely recognized fact.

A widely held opinion perhaps, but as 'best' is subjective; not a fact. And it's my least fave of the series, and one of my least favorite Bioware games overall. Just my opinion, but is equally as valid as this one.

[fhs33721]

ME2 is the best game of the series, that's a widely recognized fact. 

You mean Mass effect: mercenary shooting-range? As much as I love it, storywise I'd consider it the worst of the entire trilogy. Probably the worst story any Bioware game ever had. Somehow it still ends up my number three favourite Bioware game of all time. Kind of curious.

[Addictress]

You mean Mass effect: mercenary shooting-range? As much as I love it, storywise I'd consider it the worst of the entire trilogy. Probably the worst story any Bioware game ever had. Somehow it still ends up my number three favourite Bioware game of all time. Kind of curious.

Your opinion is terrible and you had a sheltered upbringing :/

[straykat]

Your opinion is terrible and you had a sheltered upbringing :/

 

I have to admit, we did shoot a lot of mercs.

 

 

But it was fun.. especially the merc leaders. They didn't last long, but they all had personality.

[Seraphim24]

To be honest, I really attached and defined Bioware for their kind of RPG and lateral focus in the likes of BG and NWN, but I realize now going all the way back to their history, from the earliest games to the most recent, they really are a company defined by that kind of hyper-driven focus and lots of just kind of goofy sense and not really focusing on the "game" as much....

 

I think it may sound off for people who were more into that side of things, but the fact is there are other available games. Rather than trying to see Bioware do that when they clearly prefer and identify with the other thing, I think they should probably just do that.

 

You can see in the present people really seem to attach to things like ME2 or whatever because of their kind of willingness to go in that direction.

 

I think I can definitely say that they should really honestly probably go in the direction of just over the top kind of save the world experiences, John and Jane tag teaming, full of cheesiness and lots of kind of ME2 like things (Chatty robots, whatever it is), and just being, themselves really.

 

Yes, that might not be what the people who played things like Planescape Torment or whatever want, but with such a strong identity built around those things, I think they should probably just go for it.

 

In fact, the biggest problem I see for Bioware is that they make these kind of hyper just sort of more direct experiences but they are sort of "tethered" to the video game format in a sense... I actually think maybe instead of a "playable DLC" they should experiment with just having it be purely interactive.

 

Anyway, anticipating comments from people who want more of the "game focus," I would say to them, I definitely know where these guys/gals are coming from, being one of them, that focuses on the game, but... there are just companies that focus on those things on a matter of principle...

[straykat]

To be honest, I really attached and defined Bioware for their kind of RPG and lateral focus in the likes of BG and NWN, but I realize now going all the way back to their history, from the earliest games to the most recent, they really are a company defined by that kind of hyper-driven focus and lots of just kind of goofy sense and not really focusing on the "game" as much....

 

I think it may sound off for people who were more into that side of things, but the fact is there are other available games. Rather than trying to see Bioware do that when they clearly prefer and identify with the other thing, I think they should probably just do that.

 

You can see in the present people really seem to attach to things like ME2 or whatever because of their kind of willingness to go in that direction.

 

I think I can definitely say that they should really honestly probably go in the direction of just over the top kind of save the world experiences, John and Jane tag teaming, full of cheesiness and lots of kind of nerdy things (Chatty robots, whatever it is), and just being, themselves really.

 

Yes, that might not be what the people who played things like Planescape Torment or whatever want, but with such a strong identity built around those things, I think they should probably just go for it.

 

In fact, the biggest problem I see for Bioware is that they make these kind of hyper just sort of more direct experiences but they are sort of "tethered" to the video game format in a sense... I actually think maybe instead of a "playable DLC" they should experiment with just having it be purely interactive.

 

Anyway, antitipcating comments from people who want more of the "game focus," I would say to them, I definitely know where these guys/gals are coming from, being one of them, that focuses on the game, but... there are just companies that focus on those things on a matter of principle...

 

It was less of a problem when there more RPGs being made (especially well financed ones). There were more choices and we didn't necessarily expect much from one or two companies, like nowadays.

[Seraphim24]

It was less of a problem when there more RPGs being made (especially well financed ones). There were more choices and we didn't necessarily expect much from one or two companies, like nowadays.

 

Mmm there's enough choices though to be honest, I've found games that are pretty throughly "gamey....."
 

But like I don't really see why the likes of Bioware or even Blizzard these days shouldn't sort of "give in" like Blizzard just released this sort of mini-movie, and I feel like Bioware could also do that with their DLC or something just make it a conventional narrative thing really...

 

 

The reasons being 1) They stand on their own pretty well and 2) Attempting to do the thing that they aren't as passionate/excited about (focusing on the game side), it's generally not as good to do something if they're not really into it... sort of thing... 3) There are also games that emphasize the "game" side more and companies that do that side or more focus on it...

[Linkenski]

ME2 is the best game of the series, that's a widely recognized fact. 

Not fact. It's a common consensus and an opinion. Objectively ME2's story is bonkers but because it feels so nice and sensationalistic throughout and make you feel empowered through its player agency people think the story is good when really we're just reacting to the fact that the game is good.

 

But no. For a series that basically emphasises itself for its amazing story ME2 is actually the weakest of the bunch.

 

Though I had a bit of trouble parsing all of it I agree with you in essence Guinevere. There are so many games like the ones Bioware have been trying to create since the post ME1 and DAO era that it really just de-incentivices me to look towards Bioware games, especially if we'll see more and better AAA developers focus on dialogue-choices and stuff. To me ME3 was offensive (don't take that too literally) in how much it tried to be Uncharted and even more Gears of War than ME2 was by having levels that were almost 100% action levels with no in-between for extensive dialogue or diplomacy, and Bioware just sucks at creating the Uncharted-esque set-piece moments.

 

Naughty Dog rocks at those because they throw you in a scenario where there's explosions and cumbling terrain but you have full control and truly feel they weight and physics of standing in the middle of all that. Half the time in ME3 it was like "Okay, I can't move the camera-- oh, okay, Shepard's falling now" and you could just tell that it was a cutscene in disguise even if the transitions don't cut anymore. Also, their animations are just so stiff and janky even with mo-cap, they should just stop bothering with the heavy action moments and do what they used to do well: Dialogue showdowns and intimate scenes of talking and talking. I ****** loved that, hell, that's why I loved ME1 and ME2 so much.

 

The action was serviceable but not the focus I felt, but then environments were nice to explore and the scenery was always inspired and pretty to look at and the dialogue throughout missions was interesting but the highlight of a level for me wasn't the 20 minutes I spent running from cover to cover and charging into people and shooting things in the head; the best part was the payoff when I finally reached that NPC or those NPCs at the end of the level who revealed the next part of the story or that confrontation between me and the NPC where I get to execute them or spare them or challenge their motivation with diplomacy. THAT is what Mass Effect was about at its core to me and I wan't more of THAT.

[AlanC9]

It was less of a problem when there more RPGs being made (especially well financed ones). There were more choices and we didn't necessarily expect much from one or two companies, like nowadays.

I dunno... if anything, aren't we better off now than we were a decade ago?

[Seraphim24]

Not fact. It's a common consensus and an opinion. Objectively ME2's story is bonkers but because it feels so nice and sensationalistic throughout and make you feel empowered through its player agency

 

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking of, Bioware makes those nice and sensationlistic thing and they're really good at it so they should probably focus on that, is basically my thinking..... whereas making the "game" side clearly isn't their passion and such and such....

 

(But again! for gamers who care about that sort of thing, I think there are more clearly "game" things out there where it's more of a focus and I for one certainly play those games!)

 

I dunno... if anything, aren't we better off now than we were a decade ago?

 

I think I'm with AlanC9 on this one too... there actually is a ton of variety in many respects.... I think it's only in the AAA super money sphere where that narrows... but to be honest Bioware in some ways kind of "created" a big of that which the kind of Shattered Steel super cinematic heavy thing I mean they were doctors after all I'd say it's fair to say the $ was one of their contributions.

 

By the way I think you were also right about the likes of BG and it's trajectory into modern Bioware AlanC9, Bioware kind of always focused on a similar sort of style/aesthetic. There are more parallels between ME2/DA2 and BG then one might of imagined...... I'd say I was pretty much wrong about a lot of that.

 

Though I will say BG and NWN were certainly more lateral than the likes of MDK and stuff... they moved a bit in that direction, but never quite the same as some other classic PC RPGs...

[straykat]

I dunno... if anything, aren't we better off now than we were a decade ago?

 

Are we? I don't think so. Everything's too expensive now.. so there are fewer RPGs with big publisher backing. I don't know how much DAI cost, but Witcher 3 cost 80 million. I'm pretty sure DA was more. Who the hell wants to risk that? Hardly anyone.

 

But at the same time, I like that indies and smaller devs are making RPGs...even if they're not AAA. In that sense, we're better off.

[Seraphim24]

Are we? I don't think so. Everything's too expensive now.. so there are fewer RPGs with big publisher backing. I don't know how much DAI cost, but Witcher 3 cost 80 million. I'm pretty sure DA was more. Who the hell wants to risk that? Hardly anyone.

 

But at the same time, I like that indies and smaller devs are making RPGs...even if they're not AAA. In that sense, we're better off.

 

As I was saying though, the "expensive" game thing is more narrow in many ways, but it was (in some ways) Bioware (and probably others) that brought that kind of thing to the fore. I don't really remember video games having the wealth of cinematics prior to the likes of FF7 and such.

 

I think a bit of "they made it, they can do what they want with it" applies to be honest..... and that's coming from someone who rather starkly prefers the likes of NWN or something more "game focused."

 

Like I play a lot of 3DS games for instance, they aren't super flashy, but they definitely have a lot of the aesthetics and ideas I'm looking for, and such.... or maybe a random PC RPG off of steam.

 

Then there are things like CDPR which I think is sort of in both worlds...

[Linkenski]

Are we better off now than a decade ago? It's not 2017 yet so no, because that would mean ME1 hadn't been released. But kidding aside, comparing Bioware of 2014 (the last real point of reference cuz DAI) to Bioware of 2007 when ME1 came out? Are you NUTS? They're worse than ever.

 

Sure, the tech keeps improving and we get bigger and bigger games -- how much does that improve anything. If anything people complained DA:I was too darn big for its own good and last I checked ME3 wasn't really that universally praised. It had that ending, remember? It also had that autodialogue, remember?

 

Luckily I skipped the internet when I was a big fan of ME1 and ME2 and though I'm aware of BSN's common consensus of it back then and now I like to live in the delusion that ME2 was as universally acclaimed and amazing as it is in my mind.

[straykat]

Are we better off now than a decade ago? It's not 2017 yet so no, because that would mean ME1 hadn't been released.

 

I didn't even buy it in 2007. Took me a couple of years to get an Xbox.

 

I wanted it though because I was a Kotor fan. But it turns out, Kotor is still better.

[Seraphim24]

But honestly even more importantly, I think it's a question of identifying like the core things that fans care about and developers care about.

 

Like lets drop the monetary considerations or the direction of the market and just focus on the fact that lots of people have come to Bioware as a way to connect and relate to each other, make friends, whatever it is.

 

I think having things they clearly identify with and like to be a part of is great and in many ways that's more the likes of KOTOR or the Citadel DLC or things you see mentioned here and again.

 

Plus that sensational kind of "What do you need Commander?" aesthetic which I think many fans are into and it's a bit like their personality and such, also being passionate about like deep science and knowing all the arcane details and nature of Black Hole formation and stuff like that, it's very like science heavy.

[Seraphim24]

I didn't even buy it in 2007. Took me a couple of years to get an Xbox.

 

I wanted it though because I was a Kotor fan. But it turns out, Kotor is still better.

 

Haha! KOTOR1 is like the epitome of what I'm thinking of in some ways.... just so over the top and just like splashy and such...

 

And I'd have to agree it captures that kind of style better than the likes of ME, perhaps even DA although that's a different sort of comparison slightly.

[Seraphim24]

If DAI cost more than Witcher 3 than no wonder EA squeezes the shi* out of every company they buy, they don't freaking know what to do with their money.

Seriously, i like DAI but come on, for every fetch quest in Inquisition there is a fully voiced, actually worthwhile, quest in The Witcher 3 (plus, the latter also looks better )

 

TW3 is honestly just a mega classic grade game that kind of came out of wherever, I'd think just about anyone would be hard pressed to compete with it in some ways it was like their "moment" so to speak.

[AlanC9]

Are we better off now than a decade ago? It's not 2017 yet so no, because that would mean ME1 hadn't been released. But kidding aside, comparing Bioware of 2014 (the last real point of reference cuz DAI) to Bioware of 2007 when ME1 came out? Are you NUTS? They're worse than ever.

I was actually comparing the CRPG markets in general. Ten years ago we didn't have CDPR yet, and Black Isle and Troika were defunct.
 
I'm luckier than you as far as the subjective side of this goes; I liked ME3 and DAI just fine. But I just don't see how now is a bad time to be a CRPG player, even if you do insist on playing in the AAA space.

[straykat]

TW3 is honestly just a mega classic grade game that kind of came out of wherever, I'd think just about anyone would be hard pressed to compete with it in some ways it was like their "moment" so to speak.

 

They've been inching towards it though. Their other games weren't as good, but they were decent enough. I expect better from them with another IP, like cyberpunk.

[Seraphim24]

They've been inching towards it though. Their other games weren't as good, but they were decent enough. I expect better from them with another IP, like cyberpunk.

 

Er yeah it didn't come out of nowhere, it's true,  I played both TW1 and 2 and was pretty into them, I just mean TW3 is just the type of game that will probably sort of "live on" for awhile, like one of those famous games that people talk about for years or something.

 

Sort of like a CRPG equivalent of Ocarina of Time or something... or er just other classic CRPGs.

 

And I think that was a consequence of a mixture of factors (wanting to make a splash, kind of putting "Poland" on a map for people sort of deal) the kind of motivation that people have that makes them perform feats beyond what they might ordinarily accomplish....

[AlanC9]

If DAI cost more than Witcher 3 than no wonder EA squeezes the shi* out of every company they buy, they don't freaking know what to do with their money.
Seriously, i like DAI but come on, for every fetch quest in Inquisition there is a fully voiced, actually worthwhile, quest in The Witcher 3 (plus, the latter also looks better )

CDPR has a cost structure advantage here; they sell games for euros and dollars but pay most of their expenses in zlotys.

Put another way, the Bio staff are overpaid.

[slimgrin]

CDPR has a cost structure advantage here; they sell games for euros and dollars but pay most of their expenses in zlotys.

Put another way, the Bio staff are overpaid.

 

Even NA coders and designers don't make that much. I think they give them bread and water in Poland and chain them to their PCs.

[straykat]

Even NA coders and designers don't make that much. I think they give them bread and water in Poland and chain them to their PCs.

 

 

They make more than anyone I know, personally.

 

But perhaps I just don't get out enough.