847 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

Now I may be wrong since it has been a while since I played Mass Effect due to time constraints but could Shepard not have been removed and replaced by another Spectre?

 

Like you said, it is an important mission especially since Shepard is hunting down a rogue Spectre but for those same reasons would it not be sensible to put a different and more experienced Spectre on the case if they felt Shepard was too liable to disregard their orders?

 

I know the meta reasons why that would not happen but in-universe, was there or could there be reasons seen as to why Shepard was not replaceable for the mission?

 

No, you're right. We have to make up a reason. They didn't take the threat seriously so this is a good starter mission to see what Specter Shepard can do. They give a really long leash. The only other Specter not on a mission was getting their coffee. Something.

[Shechinah]

No, you're right. We have to make up a reason. They didn't take the threat seriously so this is a good starter mission to see what Specter Shepard can do. They give a really long leash. The only other Specter not on a mission was getting their coffee. Something.

 

You'd think they'd take an experienced rogue Spectre seriously and the problems that might arise from sending a Spectre with a personal motive after him. I consider it a poor starting mission.

[Natureguy85]

You'd think they'd take an experienced rogue Spectre seriously and the problems that might arise from sending a Spectre with a personal motive after him. I consider it a poor starting mission.

 

They seem to think that removing Saren's Specter status will prevent him from being much of a problem. The mission is to bring Saren in, not to stop whatever he's doing. It's an arrest mission.

[vbibbi]

Which is why I hope that in ME:A there is a solid reason for each and every squadmate being there as a squadmate in the first place, a solid rationale for why they would follow our protagonist as party members/squadmates what have you, other than reasons like they are a super cool looking witty dry quippy badass that comes along for the lols

 

I felt Ashley shouldn't have been on the Normandy as a squadmate after Eden Prime in ME1. I feel her presence was there solely for being a love interest, and for the Virmire Decision. 

 

And like you said most of the squad in ME2 had no real reason for being there. Miranda and Jacob yes (really Miranda and Jacob could've been one person, you really didn't both IMO) Garrus and Tali aren't completely solid, but because there old squadmates and loyal to Shepard it helps Shepard by having some friendly faces. And obviously Mordin. I guess one biotic expert, so either Samara and Jack, but do we need both? And the others... 

Don't get me wrong I loved ME2's cast (well, except for Zaeed and Jack) and they made the game even better, but when you think about it, there place on the squad sometimes didn't make a lot of sense, and kind of shows the weakness in ME2's plotting and overall story (or lack thereof).

 

So yeah, basically in ME:A I hope that there are real, legitimate and realistic reasons for the squadmates being in the squad.

 

Well, I can justify Ashley as replacing Jenkins' spot on the crew. She doesn't have any additional intel on the geth, but she's proven herself resourceful in surviving Eden Prime. Better to keep her than apply for a new soldier, wait for the paperwork to come through, and receive an unknown and untested recruit.

 

But yeah, most of the ME2 crew don't make much sense. Let's hope Kasumi can...help...steal...the Collectors' jewels? Thane should help with his expertise on taking out individual targets to...assault...an entire ship.

 

At least Grunt is not our intended target, and the game allows us to choose not to awaken him. It's more like an unfortunate accident in losing Okeer, but might as well make the best of it and gain a powerful soldier to assist. It would have been nice if some of the other squadmates either had more explicit justification for their recruitment or ended up being accidental hires.

[Cyonan]

Well, I can justify Ashley as replacing Jenkins' spot on the crew. She doesn't have any additional intel on the geth, but she's proven herself resourceful in surviving Eden Prime. Better to keep her than apply for a new soldier, wait for the paperwork to come through, and receive an unknown and untested recruit.

 

But yeah, most of the ME2 crew don't make much sense. Let's hope Kasumi can...help...steal...the Collectors' jewels? Thane should help with his expertise on taking out individual targets to...assault...an entire ship.

 

At least Grunt is not our intended target, and the game allows us to choose not to awaken him. It's more like an unfortunate accident in losing Okeer, but might as well make the best of it and gain a powerful soldier to assist. It would have been nice if some of the other squadmates either had more explicit justification for their recruitment or ended up being accidental hires.

 

Thinking about it, it actually makes sense why you would want people like Kasumi or Thane who are adept at getting into places unnoticed when you're trying to infiltrate a base with only a small team of elite people. It was a sabotage mission, not a full out assault.

 

However, Mass Effect 2 only really had you pick 2 squad leaders, 1 hacker, and 1 biotic. Everything else was standard "kill all the baddies" that the rest of the game was.

 

So in theory it makes a lot of sense to have Kasumi or Thane around for this kind of a mission, the suicide mission just didn't really give us a mechanic to make use of their talents to the fullest degree.

[Iakus]

Thinking about it, it actually makes sense why you would want people like Kasumi or Thane who are adept at getting into places unnoticed when you're trying to infiltrate a base with only a small team of elite people. It was a sabotage mission, not a full out assault.

 

However, Mass Effect 2 only really had you pick 2 squad leaders, 1 hacker, and 1 biotic. Everything else was standard "kill all the baddies" that the rest of the game was.

 

So in theory it makes a lot of sense to have Kasumi or Thane around for this kind of a mission, the suicide mission just didn't really give us a mechanic to make use of their talents to the fullest degree.

Except that until the Collector Ship mission, we don't even know it's a base we'll be assaulting.  It could have been a Collector flotilla.  A planet.  There could have been a dozen colony worlds on the other side of the Omega IV relay.  Heck, an entire relay network!

 

So very much of Mass Effectr relies less on story and more on 

 

push button=make awesome happen

[Addictress]

"They're going to hit Earth!"

Right. They're going to fight their way past Arcturus Station and then invade the Sol system and all it's defenses and ships with one cruiser.

When a single GARDIAN can chase it off a colony world .

Talk about dumb

The GARDIAN system was installed in reaction to the collectors. It was a disproportionately huge defense investment to defend a tiny colony. it would be difficult and expensive to outfit every tiny colony with GARDIANS and even bigger defense systems for larger colonies.

As I said, they had an unknown number of ships - not just one cruiser.

Natureguy said Shepard bumped into the same cruiser again and again. But while the same ship had been dogging him, that did not mean it was their only ship. Look how tiny it was emerging from their HQ. It was only one auxiliary ship out of many others.

I don't see how the collectors were any more dumb than other enemies in games. Shepard had to find a rare key to get through their relay, survive against difficult assaults, bypass an impossible debris field to assassinate the central core of their HQ. It is only as dumb as the central tenet of Mass Effect which is the underestimation of organics.

[Addictress]

Well, I can justify Ashley as replacing Jenkins' spot on the crew. She doesn't have any additional intel on the geth, but she's proven herself resourceful in surviving Eden Prime. Better to keep her than apply for a new soldier, wait for the paperwork to come through, and receive an unknown and untested recruit.

But yeah, most of the ME2 crew don't make much sense. Let's hope Kasumi can...help...steal...the Collectors' jewels? Thane should help with his expertise on taking out individual targets to...assault...an entire ship.

At least Grunt is not our intended target, and the game allows us to choose not to awaken him. It's more like an unfortunate accident in losing Okeer, but might as well make the best of it and gain a powerful soldier to assist. It would have been nice if some of the other squadmates either had more explicit justification for their recruitment or ended up being accidental hires.

Yeah I totally agree about the Bioware tendency to have nonsensical squadmates. Like Kasumi, Thane, even Liara shouldn't be fighting out in the field since she's an archaeologist??

[Addictress]

Thinking about it, it actually makes sense why you would want people like Kasumi or Thane who are adept at getting into places unnoticed when you're trying to infiltrate a base with only a small team of elite people. It was a sabotage mission, not a full out assault.

However, Mass Effect 2 only really had you pick 2 squad leaders, 1 hacker, and 1 biotic. Everything else was standard "kill all the baddies" that the rest of the game was.

So in theory it makes a lot of sense to have Kasumi or Thane around for this kind of a mission, the suicide mission just didn't really give us a mechanic to make use of their talents to the fullest degree.

Yeah, if they had a hacker, a biotic, and then a need for an infiltrator to quickly dispose of some key personnel on the way to the core, that would've been ideal. It looks like Bioware ran out of time now :/

[Cyonan]

Except that until the Collector Ship mission, we don't even know it's a base we'll be assaulting.  It could have been a Collector flotilla.  A planet.  There could have been a dozen colony worlds on the other side of the Omega IV relay.  Heck, an entire relay network!

 

So very much of Mass Effectr relies less on story and more on 

 

push button=make awesome happen

 

We don't know what it will be but given that it's a small elite team and not an assault force, infiltration specialists will always be something you should have. The team you assemble was never going to make an all out assault on something because they lack the numbers for that.

 

but yeah in general Mass Effect's story has always worked best if you don't think about it too much =P

[Gwydden]

Yeah I totally agree about the Bioware tendency to have nonsensical squadmates. Like Kasumi, Thane, even Liara shouldn't be fighting out in the field since she's an archaeologist??

Liara Jones. You'd be surprised what she can do with a whip...

 

...

 

... that sounded kinkier than I intended.

[Natureguy85]

The GARDIAN system was installed in reaction to the collectors. It was a disproportionately huge defense investment to defend a tiny colony. it would be difficult and expensive to outfit every tiny colony with GARDIANS and even bigger defense systems for larger colonies.

As I said, they had an unknown number of ships - not just one cruiser.

Natureguy said Shepard bumped into the same cruiser again and again. But while the same ship had been dogging him, that did not mean it was their only ship. Look how tiny it was emerging from their HQ. It was only one auxiliary ship out of many others.

I don't see how the collectors were any more dumb than other enemies in games. Shepard had to find a rare key to get through their relay, survive against difficult assaults, bypass an impossible debris field to assassinate the central core of their HQ. It is only as dumb as the central tenet of Mass Effect which is the underestimation of organics.

 

The Gardian system is a few laser turrets. In the grand scheme of things, that shouldn't be much. Larger colonies will have fleets defending them or already have defenses.

 

The Collectors have one cruiser. The game makes this clear, though it doesn't say it explicitly. You talk about how small the ship is in relation to the base. So what? That means they could have had more, and you're right that it would make sense, but where are they? Shepard fights the same one every time. I don't see multiple ships, nor do I see any more hangars.

 

The Collectors are dumb because they exposed themselves for no reason. They started a plan that wasn't likely to work, even if Shepard stayed dead. They allowed Shepard onto the Cruiser, let him steal data, and let him leave. They didn't destroy the Normandy after it had the IFF. They put three eyes on the human Reaper.

 

 

 

Liara Jones. You'd be surprised what she can do with a whip...

 

...

 

... that sounded kinkier than I intended.

 

When I look at your avatar I see a cat peeking out of a turtleneck, not the Cheshire smile.

[vbibbi]

Liara Jones. You'd be surprised what she can do with a whip...

 

...

 

... that sounded kinkier than I intended.

 

Now I'm picturing Liara in ME3 trying to wrassle Javik into a cage, shouting "It belongs in a museum!"

[Addictress]

The Gardian system is a few laser turrets. In the grand scheme of things, that shouldn't be much. Larger colonies will have fleets defending them or already have defenses.

The Collectors have one cruiser. The game makes this clear, though it doesn't say it explicitly. You talk about how small the ship is in relation to the base. So what? That means they could have had more, and you're right that it would make sense, but where are they? Shepard fights the same one every time. I don't see multiple ships, nor do I see any more hangars.

The Collectors are dumb because they exposed themselves for no reason. They started a plan that wasn't likely to work, even if Shepard stayed dead. They allowed Shepard onto the Cruiser, let him steal data, and let him leave. They didn't destroy the Normandy after it had the IFF. They put three eyes on the human Reaper.




When I look at your avatar I see a cat peeking out of a turtleneck, not the Cheshire smile.

They had more than one ship. That's why it was creepy when Shepard said "so wait you're telling me it's the same ship that's been dogging me all these years?" It was only remarkable because there are more than one ship. Of there was only one ship, why would this comment need to be made?

And I liked that, too, because it played into their creeper/stalker angle. Which is a cool aspect for enemies to have.

And why wouldn't the collectors succeed? They succeeded, multiple times. Ever since we heard about them. They even friggin boarded Shepard's Normandy SR2. And honestly, even on Horizon, even with Kaidan there, the lasers came on too late. The collectors successfully harvested a ton if not most of the colonists on Horizon. They were winning all the way up until Shepard went through the Omega 4 relay. And they would have continued winning if Shepard hadn't found a rare key, bypassed a debris field with a stroke of luck, and infiltrated their base.

[Addictress]

Out of all the complaints one may have about these games, saying the collectors were not a threatening and well-done enemy is just not one of the reasonable ones.

There are many complaints I will agree with. But this is just one that shall not pass.

[Cyonan]

On the note of the Collectors they were being rather dumb, but it did actually kind of fit them. They were controlled by Harbinger who is a Reaper, and it's noted that the biggest weakness of the Reapers from the start is their arrogance. They legitimately believe that nothing can stop them, which is why Sovereign risked uniting the entire galaxy by doing a full out assault on the Citadel. It never occurred to it that it might lose, especially with the Geth on its side. It was a Reaper, and Reapers were supposed to be unstoppable.

 

and so Harbinger commands the Collectors to start constructing a Human Reaper because again, it never occurs to Harbinger that they might lose. Despite Sovereign being destroyed, Harbinger still believed that the Reapers as a whole could not be stopped even if they lost a few along the way.

 

The whole battle strategy of the Reapers in all 3 games is dumb because they didn't believe it was possible for them to fail due to their overwhelming numbers and technological advantage. They also very nearly win despite the fact that they had a horrible strategy.

 

At no point in the series were the Reapers ever really shown to have good tactical thinking, and they were the ones controlling the Collectors so why would they have good tactical thinking?

 

I don't know if I should call that well done or not, because I've honestly no idea if all that was intentional or just another case of "Probably best you don't over think it" that happened to fit when you actually did. Over thinking it just happens to be fun sometimes =P

 

That said I still think, awesome as they were, the Collectors served no real purpose for the overarching plot of the trilogy. They tell us nothing new about the Reapers, and only gave us a lore point about what happened to the Protheans which is interesting but wasn't really relevant to the main plot. Come Mass Effect 3 they're not heard from again outside of MP due to high fan demand for them.

[Addictress]

Well come on, to be fair, the reapers WON for like... 160,000 cycles or something? So I think their arrogance isn't unfounded.

[Iakus]

The GARDIAN system was installed in reaction to the collectors. It was a disproportionately huge defense investment to defend a tiny colony. it would be difficult and expensive to outfit every tiny colony with GARDIANS and even bigger defense systems for larger colonies.

As I said, they had an unknown number of ships - not just one cruiser.

Natureguy said Shepard bumped into the same cruiser again and again. But while the same ship had been dogging him, that did not mean it was their only ship. Look how tiny it was emerging from their HQ. It was only one auxiliary ship out of many others.

I don't see how the collectors were any more dumb than other enemies in games. Shepard had to find a rare key to get through their relay, survive against difficult assaults, bypass an impossible debris field to assassinate the central core of their HQ. It is only as dumb as the central tenet of Mass Effect which is the underestimation of organics.

They may have had more than one ship, but the fact that this was never brought up, and Shepard kept encountering the same ship strongly implies otherwise.  If the Collectors indeed had enough ships to endanger Earth, that's extremely bad writing.

 

GARDIANs are not exactly overkill as far as defenses go.  According to the codex, they are pretty standard anti-fighter defenses for most ships. (General ARea Defense Integration Anti-spacecraft Network)  

[Gwydden]

Well come on, to be fair, the reapers WON for like... 160,000 cycles or something? So I think their arrogance isn't unfounded.

And to be even fairer, they never had to think or be proactive at all. Just repeat the exact same strategy over and over. I guess is not that far-fetched that they hadn't the slightest idea of what to do once the program got glitchy.

[Addictress]

They may have had more than one ship, but the fact that this was never brought up, and Shepard kept encountering the same ship strongly implies otherwise.  If the Collectors indeed had enough ships to endanger Earth, that's extremely bad writing.

 

GARDIANs are not exactly overkill as far as defenses go.  According to the codex, they are pretty standard anti-fighter defenses for most ships. (General ARea Defense Integration Anti-spacecraft Network)  

No, Shepard encountering the same ship didn't imply there weren't others. It implied that that ship was obsessed with him and stalking him.

 

Commenting "what, this is the same ship?" strongly implied that it is odd....because, well... it's obvious there are plenty of ships, and it is only odd that this one returns.

 

Creeper stalker humanoid insectoid aliens. That's not bad writing, it's an intentional characerization of the enemy.

 

Which also made it a more personal battle for Shepard, as well.

[AlanC9]

That dialogue would have been just bizarre if there was only the one ship, yeah.

[Sylvius the Mad]

For me he is honestly one of the most charismatic and engaging PCs in games. Especially in TW3. Bioware would do well to understand what makes him compelling, because trust me, Shepard is a wooden doll in comparison. Obviously part of that is the semi-blank slate depiction Bioware uses, but they can improve here. I actually hope Ryder is a more defined PC.

It is only the blank slate PCs that I find interesting, because I actually get to roleplay them. The pre-written protagonists are effectively NPCs, and are just as uninteresting as NPCs.

Maybe it's my general lack of empathy, but if I only get to know the PC as well as I can get to know a person, I won't care about the PC or the world in which the PC lives. But a blank slate PC, where I can populate its mind and have perfect knowledge of its mental state, that's a PC about which I will care.

I remember trying to read The Witcher books, and I had to stop, because the setting would just be so good for an RPG, but the RPG we got isn't fun to play, so the books just made me angry.

[Iakus]

That dialogue would have been just bizarre if there was only the one ship, yeah.

The fact that one ship has been stalking Shepard for two years when there were others we never see (but are "obviously" out there) is no less bizarre.

[Fixers0]

Indeed, ME2 provides no evidence whatsoever that there was more than one Collector Ship, instead, the game implies the exact oppostie by constantly re-using the same ship for every encounter.

[Addictress]

Indeed, ME2 provides no evidence whatsoever that there was more than one Collector Ship, instead, the game implies the exact oppostie by constantly re-using the same ship for every encounter.

 

 

You're all like children who are partially eclipsed by a curtain with someone on the other side and go, "wow they can't see me, since my eyes cannot see them"