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So think Bioware will focus on story? Or go all DA:I and make a bunch of dead storyless content?


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#651
AlanC9

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Again, no, because Shepard knows nothing about the Collectors. He has no idea how many ships they have so if they have 1 or 100, it’s news to him. They could have other ships of different types, I suppose.


I was referring to Joker and EDI's dialogue, not Shepard's.

#652
sjsharp2011

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DS9 was my favorite. I thought it was a lot of people's favorite.

 

I'd love to see more ST, but done in that style.. Where it had more long running stories and such. TNG is cool, but self-contained episodes are kind of weak. Especially nowadays, where watching episodes back to back is more common.

It's not my favourite but it is my second favourite although it is the first of the Star Trek's I actually watched though if I remember rightly so I do remember it fondly for that as it got me interested in Star Trek as I expanded and watched the other series and found myself enjoying them too. 


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#653
Natureguy85

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I was referring to Joker and EDI's dialogue, not Shepard's.

 

Joker doesn't know anything about anything beyond flying. EDI might well know, but she doesn't share any of that with Shepard.



#654
Sylvius the Mad

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Lol

It's reading comprehension. Reading between the lines. People who got it were proven right. Ha

Reading between the lines = Making stuff up
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#655
Silcron

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Reading between the lines = Making stuff up


They are close, sometimes readers make stuff up with their interpretations, but there are also times in which the writer put the message between the lines on purpose, specially if they want to get through censorship.

It is something we studied in primary school in Spain, and saw examples of many recent writers, some of them are still alive. Oh, in case you don't know, Spain was a dictatorship until 1975, thus why many writers and artists that disagreed with Franco and his rule had to use these type of methods to get the message they wanted across.

In other words, from the reader point of view it is the same process, interpretation. The big difference IMO is that you can read between lines when the writer actually had the intention for it. So I would avoid refering to it in such a derogatory way, seeing as it is a phenomenon that happens and is studied.
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#656
Natureguy85

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Reading between the lines = Making stuff up

 

That's not true at all. Reading between the lines means there are lines there. Now, you can be wrong, as Addictress was until WoG made her right, but the idea didn't come out of whole cloth.  In this very case, the idea that the Collectors have multiple ships is a reasonable assumption at the start. However, the rest of the story suggests otherwise.



#657
AlanC9

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All I'm getting from this is that you had the wrong impression at the beginning, and you're defending the impression.
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#658
Dean_the_Young

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The Collectors were able to build about half a working Reaper with the few colonies they raided in the Terminus Systems. That would suggest that, unless they've taken almost everybody in the Terminus Systems already, there isn't an actual need to hit Earth to finish the Human Reaper.

 

Half a working Reaper? A Reaper Dreadnaught is nearly two kilometers long- what we fought wasn't even 20 meters, and taken down by small arms fire.

 

No, the need to hit earth was another of ME2's points.

 

 

 

 

That would suggest that Shep was wrong about the speculation of them hitting Earth, or at least they weren't going to do it prior to the main Reaper force showing up or finishing their own Reaper.

 

 

Which comes back to- what's the point, then?

 

We know from WOG that the Reapers were already in transit, so the Reapers weren't building the human reaper to try a repeat of the Sovereign strategy. What's the value of a single Human Reaper before the main invasion, then? What is it actually supposed to do that's worth risking the Reaper's repeated emphasis on being a hidden force with a surprise attack?


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#659
Sylvius the Mad

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That's not true at all. Reading between the lines means there are lines there. Now, you can be wrong, as Addictress was until WoG made her right, but the idea didn't come out of whole cloth. In this very case, the idea that the Collectors have multiple ships is a reasonable assumption at the start. However, the rest of the story suggests otherwise.

No, she was always wrong, because the rightness of a conclusion is determined not by its accuracy, but by the validity of the reasoning that supported it.

If you guess right, you were still guessing.

#660
Sylvius the Mad

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They are close, sometimes readers make stuff up with their interpretations, but there are also times in which the writer put the message between the lines on purpose, specially if they want to get through censorship.

It is something we studied in primary school in Spain, and saw examples of many recent writers, some of them are still alive. Oh, in case you don't know, Spain was a dictatorship until 1975, thus why many writers and artists that disagreed with Franco and his rule had to use these type of methods to get the message they wanted across.

In other words, from the reader point of view it is the same process, interpretation. The big difference IMO is that you can read between lines when the writer actually had the intention for it. So I would avoid refering to it in such a derogatory way, seeing as it is a phenomenon that happens and is studied.

The writer's intention is unknowable. I maintain that the entire field of study you describe is wrong-headed.

#661
sjsharp2011

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DS9 was my favorite. I thought it was a lot of people's favorite.

 

I'd love to see more ST, but done in that style.. Where it had more long running stories and such. TNG is cool, but self-contained episodes are kind of weak. Especially nowadays, where watching episodes back to back is more common.

With things like Netflix and Catch up TV and services like that that exist now yes. As you can always use that to catch up with any episodes you miss of a show. But when TOS and TNG were being made these services didn't exist. so having self contained episodes made more sense because if you missed one it didn't matter so much in the overall scheme of things because each episode was it's own unique story. In my opinion both ongoing stories  and 1 episode stories  are good in their own way though



#662
RoboticWater

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They are close, sometimes readers make stuff up with their interpretations, but there are also times in which the writer put the message between the lines on purpose, specially if they want to get through censorship.

It is something we studied in primary school in Spain, and saw examples of many recent writers, some of them are still alive. Oh, in case you don't know, Spain was a dictatorship until 1975, thus why many writers and artists that disagreed with Franco and his rule had to use these type of methods to get the message they wanted across.

In other words, from the reader point of view it is the same process, interpretation. The big difference IMO is that you can read between lines when the writer actually had the intention for it. So I would avoid refering to it in such a derogatory way, seeing as it is a phenomenon that happens and is studied.

You'll have an easier time teaching a computer to love than you will trying to convince Sylvius that subtext exists.


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#663
Iakus

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All I'm getting from this is that you had the wrong impression at the beginning, and you're defending the impression.

More like pointing out ME2 was so badly written that such a conclusion was perfectly valid, given the facts as shown.



#664
Dark_Caduceus

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A bunch of dead storyless content?

You mean Mass Effect 2?



#665
Ogrinash

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I'm expecting one dimensional characters (a character based entirely on their sexual orientation, for example), team diversity, and shallow choices for story and quest points (if you're given a choice).

 

The problem being I don't think this is a low bar nowadays.  Sigh.


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#666
Grieving Natashina

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I'd argue that ME2 had a boatload of story content. Most of which I don't consider meaningless as far as the individual stories go. I would agree that most of the events in ME2 turned out to mean preciously jack.

Here's my thing: I felt ME2 was great as a character driven story as far as the companions go. However, with the exception of possibly Mordin (with the genophage angst,) most of those stories ended up not meaning really anything in terms of the greater plot.

The most egregious being the dark energy plot being dropped, even though it was a pretty big part of Tali's personal story. Once again, I ask the ME team not to include a story like that if it depends upon one writer leaving. Even a quick mention from a quarian NPC saying, "Hey, we were wrong" would have at least brought some closure to that.

Ahem. Sorry about that. I am a little bitter about that one.

The Collectors make for an interesting villain, but they should have gotten their own game or as a DLC. The story of the Collectors could have been fleshed out more without making them into ME2. Heck, they should have been the DLC content with more of a focus on the main plot about the Reapers. Honestly, the ME team should have waited until ME3 to go, "Surprise! This is what happened to the mighty Protheans." Boom, done, without them as the main villain for an entire game. I also wasn't thrilled that I didn't see a "fully grown" Reaper until Arrival. Arrival was the only part of ME2 that was directly tied into the story, and that had to happen via a DLC. That should have been in the base game.

Don't get me wrong. I really had fun in ME2 and I found the companions had more depth than I expected. I enjoyed the DLCs, and I though the story of ME2 as as stand alone tale was good. As a sequel, I think it sucked. For the over arching story of the Reapers, it was a total failure. The ME team put so much work into 12 companions that the main plot suffered. That's why I'm against having that many companions/squadmates in any BW game. In any game that I've played that's had more than 5-7 companions the main plot suffers. Balance in all things, ect.
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#667
Dark_Caduceus

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An account of a bunch of characters, interesting or not, does not to me consitute a story. It's just inert, "dead", in other words.

 

Especially when this "story" is the middle portion of an ostensible trilogy that already had a plot established one chapter earlier.



#668
Grieving Natashina

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To each their own. I found merit in the character driven stories, and I would still argue that the content wasn't "dead" or inert. I simply feel that the main plot was secondary to the the companions. "Irrelevant to main plot" doesn't equate as "Dead Meaningless content," for me. I was engaged in the companions and even got some emotional reaction for me. Call me a weenie if you (general term)wish, but Mordin's quest made me sniffle. That isn't meaningless, inert or dead to me.

I love the game, but I do think the main plot suffered. DA:O's story was absolutely boring these days when I tried to play it, but I really liked the companions.

<edit> I removed an unnecessary bit of snark there. I've had three hours of sleep, so I do apologize for that one if you saw it prior to my edit. :blush:

Eh, I can see merit in both sides of the debate. I'm not trying to be right or wrong here. I don't hold onto my opinons so tightly that I am unable to see a different point of view. Many of us have had different experiences.

#669
Dark_Caduceus

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The main plot isn't the only thing that matters, but it's a prerequisite to a good story.

 

Really a good story should have a good plot, pacing, characters, setting, lore, etc. Why settle for less?



#670
Grieving Natashina

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The main plot isn't the only thing that matters, but it's a prerequisite to a good story.

Really a good story should have a good plot, pacing, characters, setting, lore, etc. Why settle for less?

Because I don't think I am settling for less. Because I feel that the ME trilogy is something to be learned from. Because I felt a connection to the companions and even identified with them to some extent. I thought it was a great game and I don't feel it's any "lesser."

Again, to each their own. I'm not going to sit here and say that you aren't entitled to your opinion. This series has been very divisive for the fans. I think my opinion would be different had I been here since ME2 came out. That isn't the case however, so that's where I stand.

You feel that the story was dead because the main plot wasn't really present. I feel the story was alive due to the companions and rather memorable quests (for me at least.) I'm happy to agree to disagree, since I don't think we'll see eye to eye here. :)
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#671
Cyonan

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Half a working Reaper? A Reaper Dreadnaught is nearly two kilometers long- what we fought wasn't even 20 meters, and taken down by small arms fire.

 

No, the need to hit earth was another of ME2's points.

 

What we fought was also literally half the Human form. Are the legs going to be 1.9 kilometers long?

 

Things like armour plating shouldn't be needing liquefied Humans to add.

 

Which comes back to- what's the point, then?

 

We know from WOG that the Reapers were already in transit, so the Reapers weren't building the human reaper to try a repeat of the Sovereign strategy. What's the value of a single Human Reaper before the main invasion, then? What is it actually supposed to do that's worth risking the Reaper's repeated emphasis on being a hidden force with a surprise attack?

 

What the purpose of the Human Reaper was, was never entirely explained. EDIs guess about "Human Reaper reproduction" doesn't make a whole lot of sense and it's the only thing we're given to go on.

 

Although when it comes to why risk being noticed the answer "Failure didn't even occur to them" fits with how the Reapers act in the rest of the story, and it's the Reapers controlling the Collectors.

 

Admittedly the Human Reaper seems more like they wanted a cool boss and then tried to make it fit the lore after designing it as best they could, even though it kind of doesn't.


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#672
correctamundo

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ME2 is like "The dirty dozen in space". So ME2 gets the Charles Atlas seal of approval. "Stamped"



#673
Iakus

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ME2 is like "The dirty dozen in space". So ME2 gets the Charles Atlas seal of approval. "Stamped"

Except the Dirty Dozen actually had a plan...


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#674
Dean_the_Young

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What we fought was also literally half the Human form. Are the legs going to be 1.9 kilometers long?

 

Things like armour plating shouldn't be needing liquefied Humans to add.

 

Why not? Where's the lore indication that there's a compositional difference?

 

Cause right now you're arguing the narrative doesn't imply what the narrative explicitly implies without ever implying otherwise on the basis of an assumption the narrative doesn't imply.

 

 

What the purpose of the Human Reaper was, was never entirely explained. EDIs guess about "Human Reaper reproduction" doesn't make a whole lot of sense and it's the only thing we're given to go on.

 

Although when it comes to why risk being noticed the answer "Failure didn't even occur to them" fits with how the Reapers act in the rest of the story, and it's the Reapers controlling the Collectors.

 

Admittedly the Human Reaper seems more like they wanted a cool boss and then tried to make it fit the lore after designing it as best they could, even though it kind of doesn't.

 

 

So the answer is there is no answer, with a helping of the impossibly intelligent machines aren't actually intelligent and just kinda stupider than they already were.

 

Can't say I'm surprised... because I'm not, and this was what I was criticizing in the first place.



#675
Dean_the_Young

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Except the Dirty Dozen actually had a plan...

 

We fight or we die, that's the plan!

 

Except it's a suicide mission, so we should all be prepared to just die.

 

Cause planning.


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