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[Iakus]

We fight or we die, that's the plan!

 

Except it's a suicide mission, so we should all be prepared to just die.

 

Cause planning.

As opposed to training so hard for an op you memorize a sort of chant laying out everyone's role in the mission so everyone knows what has to be done by who:

 

Down to the road block, we've just begun
The guards are through
The Major's men are on a spree
Major and Wladislaw go through the door
Pinkley stays out in the drive
The Major gives the rope a fix
Wladislaw throws the hook to heaven
Jiminez has got a date
The other guys go up the line
Sawyer and Gilpen are in the pen
Posey guards points five and seven
Wladislaw and the Major go down to delve
Franko goes up without being seen
Zero-hour – Jimenez cuts the cable, Franko cuts the phone
Franko goes in where the others have been
We all come out like it's Halloween

 

WHo needs planning and teamwork?  Just solve their daddy issues and everything will work out fine 

[Silcron]

As opposed to training so hard for an op you memorize a sort of chant laying out everyone's role in the mission so everyone knows what has to be done by who:

Down to the road block, we've just begun
The guards are through
The Major's men are on a spree
Major and Wladislaw go through the door
Pinkley stays out in the drive
The Major gives the rope a fix
Wladislaw throws the hook to heaven
Jiminez has got a date
The other guys go up the line
Sawyer and Gilpen are in the pen
Posey guards points five and seven
Wladislaw and the Major go down to delve
Franko goes up without being seen
Zero-hour – Jimenez cuts the cable, Franko cuts the phone
Franko goes in where the others have been
We all come out like it's Halloween

WHo needs planning and teamwork? Just solve their daddy issues and everything will work out fine

I'VE HAD ENOUGH! Daddy issues here, daddy issues there. This is so very insulting to some squadmates like Mordin.

I propose the SSV Therapy, treatment will only cost you signing for a suicide mission you will probably survive*

*Survivavility is only high for members of the ground team. The rest will "probably" be fine.

Edit:

Spoiler

Because it's the internet. *Insert That was a Joke.jpg here*

[correctamundo]

Except the Dirty Dozen actually had a plan...

 

Are you proposing Shep waits until they have intelligence network set up behind Omega 4 relay?

 

We fight or we die, that's the plan!

 

Except it's a suicide mission, so we should all be prepared to just die.

 

Cause planning.

 

Except of course that particular plan has got **** all to do with ME2.

[Dean_the_Young]

Except of course that particular plan has got **** all to do with ME2.

 

That plan is ME2.

 

The suicide mission is set up with no idea of what it's even going to do, how it will do it, or even if it can even if they are willing to risk their lives. If the far side of the relay had been anything else but a space station with a self-destruct sequence, it could have been a farce. Imagine if Shepard's dirty dozen tried to defeat the Collectors... if the Collectors had an actual homeworld.

[MrFob]

That plan is ME2.

 

The suicide mission is set up with no idea of what it's even going to do, how it will do it, or even if it can even if they are willing to risk their lives. If the far side of the relay had been anything else but a space station with a self-destruct sequence, it could have been a farce. Imagine if Shepard's dirty dozen tried to defeat the Collectors... if the Collectors had an actual homeworld.

 

Yep, they don't even send a probe through first.

 

Also, if it was so clear in the game that the collectors had many more ships like some claim, wouldn't it be completely idiotic to go there with just one frigate? Wouldn't you have to assume that there are heaps of ships on the other side?

[von uber]

Should have just waited for the shadow brokers probe to come back.

[correctamundo]

That plan is ME2.

 

The suicide mission is set up with no idea of what it's even going to do, how it will do it, or even if it can even if they are willing to risk their lives. If the far side of the relay had been anything else but a space station with a self-destruct sequence, it could have been a farce. Imagine if Shepard's dirty dozen tried to defeat the Collectors... if the Collectors had an actual homeworld.

 

Wonderful piece of catch 22 you're building up there.

[AlanC9]

Also, if it was so clear in the game that the collectors had many more ships like some claim, wouldn't it be completely idiotic to go there with just one frigate? Wouldn't you have to assume that there are heaps of ships on the other side?

Sure, but it was idiotic from the start. Double idiotic isn't much worse than just plain idiotic.

Edit: although people have different idiocy thresholds. ME2's idiocy didn't bother me because I never thought the series made any sense. It strikes me that the people who were least happy with the series were people for whom ME1 had an acceptable idiocy level but ME2 and/or ME3 were over the limit.

[RoboticWater]

Yep, they don't even send a probe through first.

 

Also, if it was so clear in the game that the collectors had many more ships like some claim, wouldn't it be completely idiotic to go there with just one frigate? Wouldn't you have to assume that there are heaps of ships on the other side?

That's why they're sending a small crew in one of the few stealth ships in the universe. Cerberus doesn't have an armada (yet) to throw at the Collectors and the Council won't help, so the best chance TIM has for victory is to send a specialized team to go in quickly and do as much damage as possible.

[MrFob]

That's why they're sending a small crew in one of the few stealth ships in the universe. Cerberus doesn't have an armada (yet) to throw at the Collectors and the Council won't help, so the best chance TIM has for victory is to send a specialized team to go in quickly and do as much damage as possible.

 

Still quite a few problems with this:

1. The stealth ship would be a good argument if the intro of the game would not establish that the IRS stealth system is completely useless against collector ships. And alas, the Normady is immediately detected by the oculi after heading through the relay.

2. If they are relying on stealth after all for some reason, the probe suddenly becomes more viable again. And let's say they do have limited resources and no armada (yet), sending the ship and guy in that cost the organisation pretty much all they had without any recon is plain old nuts.

3. When exactly did Cerberus build the armada that they have in ME3 then? It's not in the few month between the games because Retribution tells us that Cerberus got their ass kicked in that time by Kahlee Sanders and company (granted, it's more of an ME3 problem but still connected).

4. The Alliance and the council won't help the colonies in the beginning because they don't see the threat. However, during the game, we accumulate so much evidence about the reapers (and TIM especially seems to have it all along anyway) that it should be easy to make a better case, especially if your friend Anderson is councilor. But we never get to make our case apart from once, where in the dialogue it is assumed that it's done early in the game, before we have the data from the collector ship or the derelict reaper.

[RoboticWater]

Still quite a few problems with this:
1. The stealth ship would be a good argument if the intro of the game would not establish that the IRS stealth system is completely useless against collector ships. And alas, the Normady is immediately detected by the oculi after heading through the relay.

IES stealth might not be effective on Collectors, but it's the best we have. As well-equipped as we were it's called a suicide mission for a reason.
 

2. If they are relying on stealth after all for some reason, the probe suddenly becomes more viable again.

You have me here, but I don't think the SM was intended to be a fully stealth mission. While I'm sure that would have been optimal, I think the goal was to strike quickly and abruptly, taking the Collectors potentially off guard.
 

3. When exactly did Cerberus build the armada that they have in ME3 then? It's not in the few month between the games because Retribution tells us the Cerberus got their ass kicked in that time by Kahlee Sanders and company (granted, it's more of an ME3 problem but still connected).

Let's not try to retroactively apply ME3's logic on ME2. Much of ME2 might not make sense, but ME3 is just utter nonsense.

[Lee80]

Honestly does it matter what the game is like?  you (bsn general) are never happy anyway.  For many people Inquisition was an amazing game, and the game did extremely well money wise-and fan wise too just not with BSN cause well that'll never happen.  I do hope the exploration is scaled back or better utilized, but either way DAI is a great game to take inspiration from. 

 

On a side note, the main story of DAI was better then most games, and the side quests have never been great in any of the games thus far, so no need to single out DAI.  I mean ME3 had worse side quests in my book-scan multiple planets hoping to find the right item you over heard someone needed...and that horrific journal that was no help at all.  Give credit where it's due, things improved. 

[Iakus]

Are you proposing Shep waits until they have intelligence network set up behind Omega 4 relay?

 

I'm proposing ME2's storyline was poorly thought out at best, and utter nonsense at worst.

 

Actually, not all that different from ME3.

[sjsharp2011]

IES stealth might not be effective on Collectors, but it's the best we have. As well-equipped as we were it's called a suicide mission for a reason.
 

You have me here, but I don't think the SM was intended to be a fully stealth mission. While I'm sure that would have been optimal, I think the goal was to strike quickly and abruptly, taking the Collectors potentially off guard.
 

Let's not try to retroactively apply ME3's logic on ME2. Much of ME2 might not make sense, but ME3 is just utter nonsense.

Yeah I was thinking thart myself acdtually "Remind me again why it's called a suicide mission . 

[correctamundo]

I'm proposing ME2's storyline was poorly thought out at best, and utter nonsense at worst.

 

Actually, not all that different from ME3.

 

Maybe, but fun nonsense trumps boring convoluted anyday.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

Wonderful piece of catch 22 you're building up there.

 

Catch 22 is damned if you do, damned if you don't- but ME2 wouldn't be damned if it didn't. It's a completely avoidable problem.

 

Suicide Missions don't have to be complete shots in the dark. If we learned about the Collector Base from our mission in the Collector Cruiser- that there was no homeworld, that their only space station had a Advanced Technobabble Reactor could be overloaded to destroy the Collectors and whatever they were working on- then the suicide mission would have had the inklings of a plan. Enough to start justifying our team, even.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm proposing ME2's storyline was poorly thought out at best, and utter nonsense at worst.

 

Actually, not all that different from ME3.

 

I feel proud. I know I had nothing to do with your conversion, but I feel proud all the same.

[Natureguy85]

Wonderful piece of catch 22 you're building up there.

 

How so? Is there a reason they couldn't have such intel? Hell, just have that be something EDI grabs from the Cruiser.

 

That's why they're sending a small crew in one of the few stealth ships in the universe. Cerberus doesn't have an armada (yet) to throw at the Collectors and the Council won't help, so the best chance TIM has for victory is to send a specialized team to go in quickly and do as much damage as possible.

 

A team specialized for what? If you don't know what you're doing, how can you know what team you need to do it?

[Natureguy85]

All I'm getting from this is that you had the wrong impression at the beginning, and you're defending the impression.

 

Yeah, I suppose that's accurate. However since my wrong impression was based entirely on the presented narrative, I don't feel bad and blame the writer for not communicating well. Likewise, those who were right did not reach their conclusion based on the totality of what was presented.

 

 

 

No, she was always wrong, because the rightness of a conclusion is determined not by its accuracy, but by the validity of the reasoning that supported it.

If you guess right, you were still guessing.

 

Well that doesn't change who is right or wrong, which is why I adjusted my statement in response to Alan9C's comment above. However what you say about the reasoning does determine how much credit you get for being right or wrong. One shouldn't be too proud of a correct guess just as I don't feel bad about being wrong despite following the presented facts.

[MyDamnAlterEgo]

TBH - at least some DA:I - like elements are already announced - strike teams, for instance, and pathfinder sending them to accomplish the certain missions. The only thing I for one do not understand in the TS's questioning - how the DA:I - like elements contradict the story?

[Geralt of Relays]

The Mass Effect trilogy could have been one of the most brilliant stories ever told by a video game, but sadly they botched the job in the two sequels. It’s readily apparent at many points they had no plan or idea on what they were doing beyond the first game. That total lack of even some forethought resulted in the many inconsistencies, retcons and various other ass-pulls throughout games 2 & 3. I hope for the new Andromeda series they’ve learned those lessons and at least plot out something for threads to run further into future DLCs/games. You can’t plot everything, but you got to at least get the basics in place.

 

To expand on what Natureguy85 has already said on the Mass Effect 2 opening, it became fundamentally broken to me after seeing Shepard plunge towards Alchera. There shouldn’t have been anything left of Shepard bigger than a grain of sand, yet during the post-resurrection sequence listening back to Miranda’s logs and conversing with Jacob, it’s made very clear Shepard’s body was recovered in some whole form, with various synthetics used to replace whatever Cerberus couldn’t heal. I know Shep is a badass, but it’s a planet! Which according to the codex has gravity 85% of Earth’s and an atmospheric pressure 83% of Earth’s. So assuming by a major miracle the body just somehow managed to enter the atmosphere at the right vector not to burn up, it would descend to the surface at a velocity of hundreds if not thousands of miles per hour. The codex has already told us that kinetic barriers does not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation. The armour plating may protect someone for a few seconds, like we get a number of seconds out the MAKO on a planet like Metgos, but that planet has only a temperature of 169 °C, heat from an atmosphere would be many times that. (10 times more for entering Earth’s atmosphere.) The writer could have easily side-stepped this by just having the body float in space with an Alliance distress beacon broadcasting, that Cerberus or whoever it is you want to pick it up that way.

 

It’s getting fundamentals like this wrong that has frustrated me a lot with Bioware’s games of late, it’s only one of many examples in both the ME and DA series. With the kind of budgets for these games in the high tens of millions, there aren’t any excuses on not bringing in a small team of high quality of writers. Along with having someone else that knows the lore/codex of your world backwards to check that writing, to see if it all lines up with the rules you already established in your world.

 

I won’t be pre-ordering Andromeda, (haven’t pre-ordered any Bioware game since ME2) but I’ll be keeping an eye on it and see how it is received, particularly in the story and character departments.

[correctamundo]

Catch 22 is damned if you do, damned if you don't- but ME2 wouldn't be damned if it didn't. It's a completely avoidable problem.

 

Suicide Missions don't have to be complete shots in the dark. If we learned about the Collector Base from our mission in the Collector Cruiser- that there was no homeworld, that their only space station had a Advanced Technobabble Reactor could be overloaded to destroy the Collectors and whatever they were working on- then the suicide mission would have had the inklings of a plan. Enough to start justifying our team, even.

 

So your course of action would be to sit back and let the collectors calmly go about their business. Good to know.

 

How so? Is there a reason they couldn't have such intel? Hell, just have that be something EDI grabs from the Cruiser.

 

 

A team specialized for what? If you don't know what you're doing, how can you know what team you need to do it?

 

Yes there is.

 

A team specialised for any and all possibilities.

[Mdizzletr0n]

I still think TIM could've cared less had shep died on the suicide mission. That just would've meant that after he'd gotten what he wanted, a dead Shepard would've just meant an enemy out of the way. Shep pretty much allowed themself to be a tool of a selfish, madman as if they didn't really have a choice.

[Natureguy85]

So your course of action would be to sit back and let the collectors calmly go about their business. Good to know.

 

No, but why not a larger scale version of the choice with the crew after the abduction? Prepare more knowing that more will be taken in the mean time but knowing success saves more in the long run or go now risking that you might not be ready for whatever you face? It's similar to the choice in bring down the sky; save 3 now or stop the terrorist from possibly killing many more in the future?

 

The narrative purpose of the abduction scene is to give a reason to go through the Relay without much of anything else, if anything else at all. Let's say that didn't happen; would right after getting the IFF still be the time to go through the Relay?

 

 

 

Yes there is.

 

And that reason would be...?

 

 

A team specialised for any and all possibilities.

 

Which you don't have. One of the decision points in the suicide mission requires Shepard to call for some explosives only to be told there are none. Oops. Or what if there were 5 Collector cruisers there? Or the base was like the Death Star, or at least had some sort of real defenses? The explanation for why they don't is not a bad one but that isn't discussed until they crash on the base.

 

Not only are half the crew not specialists for any role, but the team was not specialized for any and all possibilities. That is probably not even possible They just so happened to be specialized for what just so happens to be there.

[Rosstoration]

It’s getting fundamentals like this wrong that has frustrated me a lot with Bioware’s games of late, it’s only one of many examples in both the ME and DA series. With the kind of budgets for these games in the high tens of millions, there aren’t any excuses on not bringing in a small team of high quality of writers. Along with having someone else that knows the lore/codex of your world backwards to check that writing, to see if it all lines up with the rules you already established in your world.

 

This. This is what happened in Mass Effect 3.

 

They dumped the lead writer of the entire series, Drew Karpyshyn, onto Star Wars: The Old Republic, a failure of an MMO that was forced to go free-to-play.

They dumped Chris L'etoile, probably the most intelligent and promising writer at BioWare at the time, who wrote every single Codex entry in Mass Effect 1, and a lot of Mass Effect 2 - read some of his forum posts on Legion, the meaning behind the Geth AI and what the Reapers were suppose to be (instead of a bunch of dumb machines with circular logic), this guy knows what he's doing - writer no longer at BioWare.

They dumped Luke Kristjanson who wrote for Mass Effect 1 and Mass Effect 2, from the series so he could go and write for DA: Inquisition.

etc. etc.

 

Of the original writing team on Mass Effect 1 only Patrick Weekes and Mac Walters survived. And Weekes' role in ME1 was limited. Mac Walters, fantastic guy at writing dialogue, wrote some of the key characters in Mass Effect 1, my opinion on him as a scenario and lead writer is a lot different.

 

People shift around all the time in writing, and obviously you can't keep everyone of the original writing staff, especially over the years that the Mass Effect trilogy took. But the fact that there was the potential the keep the majority of the core writing staff throughout the entire series, and that opportunity was never taken, is frankly baffling.